Low berth survival
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Then we should find a gradient path between cryogenics, through Dumarest and ending up with Aliens.
Wrong and missing the point. Low berths are from CT. High lethality is from CT (as Wil pointed out, it was drastically reduced in subsequent versions). So Mongoose's use of them is specifically a case of hanging on to Classic Traveller. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, as long as the CT stuff makes sense. "If it's not broken, don't change it; if it is broken, DO change it" as I like to put it).Shonner said:Heresy! Sacrilege!:nonono:
And it was a big misunderstanding back in CT, since the writers who originally derived it from E.C. Tubb's Dumarest books didn't appreciate the difference between the non-existent interstellar government in Dumarest and an interstellar government that promulgates starship safety regulations (e.g. Signal GK) in Traveller. Nor did he realize the difference between unplanned use of low berths intended for livestock transportation to transport humans in and regular use of low berths intended for human use that authorities hand out passage vouchers for (Mustering out befenfits).
And the Low Lottery is IMO ridiculous any way you look at it (except as an urban myth; it makes a lovely urban myth).
Hans
Keep in mind: Mongoose's blog entries imply strongly, as do the MGT damage system and weapon damages, that Mongoose was working from CT 1E, and not considering the OTU at all. Gareth implied that he didn't consider the OTU at all, only the CT rules and T5 drafts... and that his CT books are the 1977 printing, plus the 1979 Bk 4.
Looking for MGT rules to support the post 81 OTU is like looking for Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Labyrinth Lord to include support for Dark Sun, Hollow World, and Ravenloft. Sure, you can run them with them, but you will need to deviate from the Rules As Written to do so, as they were not part of the designer's phronema.
Oh, and the writer introducing the low lottery? Marc Miller - it's in CT-77 Book 2 page 2.
Looking for MGT rules to support the post 81 OTU is like looking for Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Labyrinth Lord to include support for Dark Sun, Hollow World, and Ravenloft. Sure, you can run them with them, but you will need to deviate from the Rules As Written to do so, as they were not part of the designer's phronema.
Oh, and the writer introducing the low lottery? Marc Miller - it's in CT-77 Book 2 page 2.
That does not change my opinion that it doesn't fit with the Third Imperium and is a bad RPG feature anywhere.
Hans
That explains the weapon damage then.
Nothing wrong with house rules. Even when they disagree with the original creator. I remember that some years ago Golan2072 made some house rules for the low berth that I liked. I may try to dig 'em out.
EDIT: Here they are. They're CT but can easily be adapted. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=9996
Last edited:
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I've always liked the low lottery. It's been "fun" in games past. But, yes, I've never had a PC turn in a 1,000Cr ticket for a low berth trip, either, always taking the 90% cash route instead. PCs tend to travel Mid or High Passage.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It gets really interesting when you have to transport a lot of people, cheaply, like a mercenary battalion.
One of the reasons I started looking into alternatives, like fast drug in decimal doses.
One of the reasons I started looking into alternatives, like fast drug in decimal doses.
What sort of "fun"? Why the quotation marks? Liked it as a concept or as a feature in your games?
Hans
Garyius2003
SOC-13
1 in 36 chance of dying when the character is warmed outside of a doctor staffed medical facility is RPG drama, 30% no matter what is crazy suicide and unsupportable when you can cram people into staterooms with fast drugs for the same life support load, an almost 100% chance of living, and the same basic price.
Frozen Watch? "Gunner's Mate 2c, we are putting you on the frozen watch. Good news, you have a 60% chance of living to be warmed up." GM2 swings by the arms room, grabs a few grenades and a laser rifle and two packs, kills every single officer at the command before running for Startown to hide.
Enlisted pilots and engineers would just hijack a support freighter or Gazelle and run for the edge of the Marches.
Frozen Watch? "Gunner's Mate 2c, we are putting you on the frozen watch. Good news, you have a 60% chance of living to be warmed up." GM2 swings by the arms room, grabs a few grenades and a laser rifle and two packs, kills every single officer at the command before running for Startown to hide.
Enlisted pilots and engineers would just hijack a support freighter or Gazelle and run for the edge of the Marches.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
It's never been central to the plot, but I've run games where the low lottery has been an enjoyable aspect of gameplay.
In one game, I had these religious zealots protesting at the starport against the use of the low berth.
In CT, I usually don't make apologies for survival rate. I play it as a non-mastered technology employed by the desperate.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
THAT, in truth and sincerity, is the most rational thought on this topic yet exhibited.
I know nobody is getting me into a low berth other than a CERTAIN DEATH EMERGENCY.
In my TU there are (at least) three different ways to put someone into low berth.
Hans
A: No medical supervision (you get into the berth yourself and press a button).
B: Routine supervision (Competent med-tech spends 10 minutes supervising up to four people at a time).
C: Expert supervision (Medical team in a fully-equipped hospital spends hours putting you into low berth).
Reviving with no significant risk of death1 depends on the way you were put into the low berth.B: Routine supervision (Competent med-tech spends 10 minutes supervising up to four people at a time).
C: Expert supervision (Medical team in a fully-equipped hospital spends hours putting you into low berth).
A: Medical team in a fully-equipped hospital spends hours reviving you.
B: Competent med-tech spends 10 minutes supervising the revival up to four people at a time.
C: Unsupervised revival works fine.
Method C is used for putting people into the frozen watch. Method B is used by starships. Method A is for those emergencies.B: Competent med-tech spends 10 minutes supervising the revival up to four people at a time.
C: Unsupervised revival works fine.
1 There IS a small risk of death, but it's far below the granularity of the game rules and firmly into the realm of referee fiat (a.k.a. plot device territory).
Hans
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
We've talked about this before, but in the CT OTU, berths must be fully automated with some over-ride control by a paramedic.
Why do I say that? In CT, anybody can revive a person from lowberth. No skill needed. That leads me to believe it's just "PRESS HERE" and let the bed do the rest.
Now, if a person has Med-2 or better, there must be some limited over-ride control when bring a person out of cold sleep (which really isn't "cold", I don't think, but could be, I guess) because of the +1 modifier. Note that the modifier doesn't get any better whether the character is Med-2 or Med-5. It's still only a +1. So, that's why I say limited control over the process, with most of it being automated by the bed.
As I said above, I think (by deduction) that the low berth process has got to be a newer technology. I also think that there has got to be a safer way to do it than what is available to the general public because of the Frozen Watch on starships. I doubt their rate of death is as high as that of low passengers on commercial ships and tramp freighters.
Why do I say that? In CT, anybody can revive a person from lowberth. No skill needed. That leads me to believe it's just "PRESS HERE" and let the bed do the rest.
Now, if a person has Med-2 or better, there must be some limited over-ride control when bring a person out of cold sleep (which really isn't "cold", I don't think, but could be, I guess) because of the +1 modifier. Note that the modifier doesn't get any better whether the character is Med-2 or Med-5. It's still only a +1. So, that's why I say limited control over the process, with most of it being automated by the bed.
As I said above, I think (by deduction) that the low berth process has got to be a newer technology. I also think that there has got to be a safer way to do it than what is available to the general public because of the Frozen Watch on starships. I doubt their rate of death is as high as that of low passengers on commercial ships and tramp freighters.
I guess after several TLs of developement it's hard to talk about a non-mastered technology. It appears at TL 9, so my take is that by TL 15 it should be quite mastered, and I agree with the side that tells such a risk would have been forbiden except in dire emergencies (to keep someone from certain death)
Fully agreed. Frozen Watch makes little sense when you will only have about 85% of the people you try to revive (assuming they all have good endurance and a decent medic is defreezing them).
IIRC in an article appeared on a Digest (not sure if TD or MTD, but it was for MT, where cold berth is quite more safe) told that for frozen watch more time was devoted to put the crewmembers in cold sleep (cautious task) in order to be able to revive them quickly (hasty task), while emergency low berth used exactly the opposite, they were ready for hasty put people on them, but took more time to revive them safely.
I guess this assumption could be exported to MgT (and other versions) too...
Last edited:
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
It's a fair point you make about the TL-9 to TL-15 spread (TL-9 does seem a bit low). But, don't forget that there are things people don't understand about the Jump Drive either. Like wind and a sail, they don't know everything about how it works. They just know that it does work. And, the Jump drive has just a long a spread in tech.
And, if it were forbidden, it wouldn't be in the (CT) rules, or it would be described as such.
Therefore, some other answer has to apply to the question, "Why do standard low berths in the OTU have such high death rates."
It's a fact that they do, at least in the CT OTU, so the question is not whether it is or is not legal. The question is: Why is it legal?
My answer1: They don't. The original OTU death rates were retconned in every Traveller version after CT (Or possibly only most versions). The current (MgT) death rates only appear high until one realizes that the task is Routine, making it possible for a decent medic (Medic-2, Int 8+) doing a cautious job to do it without any risk at all (Provided they examine prospective passengers and refuse those with too low endurance).
1 Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.
Hans
----------
The Low Lottery is a spacer myth.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I can certainly see a House Rule that would change survival rate. Maybe a DM based on TL? Or, it would be easy to allow greater DMs for Medic skill (and therefore making the berth less automated and more dependent on the professional supervising the wake).
No need for house rules. I'm quite satisfied with MgT's 100% survival rate for properly conducted revivals.
I noticed to my surprise that MgT doesn't deal with the issue of equipment quality. A house rule might give the standard TL9 Low Berth a -1, the standard TL11 berth +0, the standard TL13 berth +1, and the standard TL15 berth +2. Or some other progression.
And minusses to badly maintained low berths, of course.
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Maybe someone should ask Marc a very simple question - in the 3rd Imperium setting is there a low lottery because people die in low berths?
It was a direct rip off from the Dumarest novels, but in those it was explained that the cold berths were designed for livestock not people, so only the desperate would risk it.
It would be very odd if the Imperium setting, which was designed as a sandbox for the CT rules, deliberately omitted stuff in the core rules.
What next, a retcon to the death during character generation? :devil:
It was a direct rip off from the Dumarest novels, but in those it was explained that the cold berths were designed for livestock not people, so only the desperate would risk it.
It would be very odd if the Imperium setting, which was designed as a sandbox for the CT rules, deliberately omitted stuff in the core rules.
What next, a retcon to the death during character generation? :devil:
Similar threads
