CT Only: Low Passage and You!

[rancke]

I actually love the Annic Nova. I never liked the shape of the ship, but if the Annic Nova is allowed, then I am free to interpret what can be done with the most imaginative brush possible ... so if I want a 'half-A' drive to allow a 100 ton J1-M1-P1 starship, then go for it [after all, just look at the Annic Nova] ... and if I want to create a combination MD-PP that is exactly 1 dTon (the minimum allowed by the rules) to allow for some really small 'small craft', then why not [after all, just look at the Annic Nova] .

That's very true. But you are likewise free to interpret what can be done with the most imaginative brush possible if the Annic Nova is not allowed.

What you might not be free to do is to sell your interpretations for official publication. There's a certain school of thought among TTPTB (The Traveller Powers That Be) to the effect that stuff that breaks the rules and/or makes no sense is acceptable when it is canonical but not otherwise. That would make Annic Nova acceptable but a similar breach of the rules with another ship unacceptable.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

With the standard trader campaign where PCs are scrambling to make ends meet they can't afford to park their ship on Heya Farport and go for a tourist jaunt to a world weeks away by system shuttle. So all my lovely background detail is going to languish unused and unheeded. <sniff> It's really very heartrending. :nonono:

Hans

What about "nonscheduled major maintenance" (for your campaign needs)?

Otherwise, ship is chartered out for several months? Lots of possibilities here, like tracking down their own "skipped ship"?:devil:

Not great, but a couple of possibilities.

Michael

 

[Vladika]

OK Why is "tracking" hyperlinked in my last post?

 

[aramis]

OK Why is "tracking" hyperlinked in my last post?

I don't see that it is.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

What about "nonscheduled major maintenance" (for your campaign needs)?

I'm using something similar for the intro to my Play-by-Post. (Once I get the friggin' subsectors done - which is waiting on me to fix my car.....)

 

[Vladika]

I'm using something similar for the intro to my Play-by-Post. (Once I get the friggin' subsectors done - which is waiting on me to fix my car.....)

That is to funny!:rofl:

Good luck with your car though.

 

[rancke]

What about "nonscheduled major maintenance" (for your campaign needs)?

What makes you think the shipyard/repair facilities would be located on TL5 Heya, where the added transport time would increase the cost of the imported components and turn a two week annual maintenance into a six week annual maintenance, rather than at the jumpport where all the imported components arrive first?

(I admit to being a bit disingenious here. I actually do have an idea for putting the boatyard in Heya's orbit (though not on Heya), but it depends on accepting the existence of a secondary world with stellar technology (Heya's so-called moon, Heya-minor). And even if you do accept that, the extra time involved would turn Heya's class B starport into a place where you could get annual maintenance if you went there for it, but no one ever does.)

Otherwise, ship is chartered out for several months? Lots of possibilities here, like tracking down their own "skipped ship"?:devil:

I would call that directing the players there for a specific adventure.

Not great, but a couple of possibilities.

I only said that jumpports would make world writeups less useful, not completely useless.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

What makes you think the shipyard/repair facilities would be located on TL5 Heya, where the added transport time would increase the cost of the imported components and turn a two week annual maintenance into a six week annual maintenance, rather than at the jumpport where all the imported components arrive first?
Hans

I guess I was a bit vague as to where to shipyard was. My only thought here was that "something major" came up that was way beyond annual maintenance and would require your group to be there quite a while. They could either just hang around and pay to stay in high-port accommodations or go dirt side for an adventure.

I haven't paid attention to TL5 Heya, but, if it is a TL5 shipyard Heya has more problems than just Masking.

 

[rancke]

I haven't paid attention to TL5 Heya, but, if it is a TL5 shipyard Heya has more problems than just Masking.

Boatyard. Heya's port is Class B. Obviously the boatyard can't be TL5, but it's located on a TL5 world (or rather, in a system where the mainworld is TL5). And yes, Heya would have problems even if its star was type V instead of type II, but the two week trip between the solar jump limit and Heya's orbit exacerbates those problems and adds new ones. For example, I have a good deal of trouble believing in Heya as an important tourist world with the increase in transport cost (and time) those four extra weeks in space imposes.

I did suggest to Don a while back that what with the various problems evoked by the K6 II star, the lack of any mention of this extra travel time in the canonical writeup of Heya might be a good enough reason to consider the stellar class a mistake and change it to a K6 V, but evidently he or Marc disagreed.


Hans

 

[Reban]

Boatyard. Heya's port is Class B. Obviously the boatyard can't be TL5, but it's located on a TL5 world (or rather, in a system where the mainworld is TL5). And yes, Heya would have problems even if its star was type V instead of type II, but the two week trip between the solar jump limit and Heya's orbit exacerbates those problems and adds new ones. For example, I have a good deal of trouble believing in Heya as an important tourist world with the increase in transport cost (and time) those four extra weeks in space imposes.

A TL5 Boatyard could be producing manned V2 type rockets. Given a long enough period at a given tech level very advanced solutions to any problem or task could be worked out without progressing to the next TL. Heya's space capability could look like the vision for the German and later US space programmes that Wernher von Braun had.

I can imagine space tourists making a trip to see that :rofl:

Isolation and difficulty in getting there in itself is sometimes a selling point for tourism. I don't know what the write-up on Heya says is its tourist attraction but how about a version of a "Nile Cruise". Travellers fly to Egypt, board an old paddle steamer and travel up the Nile in old world luxury. (There's also the Himalayan Queen rail trip in India).

For Heya, Travellers board a "Rocket Liner" and take the two week trip in-system while getting to know their fellow travellers and eating at the Captain's Table. they spend a week or two on Heya absorbing local culture before starting the two week outward bound leg.

I suggest the Agatha Christie style murder happens on day two of the outward leg, so that the perp gets handed over to Imperial authorities


[EDIT] Having read the Landgrab for Heya it strikes me that Heya is what India would be like if it were colonized by the Amish.

 

[Vladika]

I can imagine space tourists making a trip to see that :rofl:

Isolation and difficulty in getting there in itself is sometimes a selling point for tourism.

I'm just going to bring up "Intergalactic Geographic" on the holovid...

 

[rancke]

A TL5 Boatyard could be producing manned V2 type rockets. Given a long enough period at a given tech level very advanced solutions to any problem or task could be worked out without progressing to the next TL. Heya's space capability could look like the vision for the German and later US space programmes that Wernher von Braun had.

A boatyard on a TL 5 world might be able to manufacture TL 5 spaceboats with local resources, but I very much doubt it would be able to provide annual maintenance for TL 9-15 ships with local resources. And a starport would need to be able to provide all the services of a class B starport to get a class B rating.


Hans

 

[Reban]

I'm just going to bring up "Intergalactic Geographic" on the holovid...

A sizable percentage of Travellers must be holographers and holovid adventurers. If you've ever thought about how Bear Grylls makes his shows and the actual size of the support crew you'll realize what a great patron Intergalatic Geographic and Stellar Discovery Channel would make. Hey there's even work for Mercs guarding warzone/redzone tourists and reporters.


Just a thought but when travel between stars becomes relatively trivial people are going to take journeys across parsecs, spend weeks in transit and go through all sorts of hardship, just to climb a mountain on a planet. Why? Because it's there.

 

[Reban]

A boatyard on a TL 5 world might be able to manufacture TL 5 spaceboats with local resources, but I very much doubt it would be able to provide annual maintenance for TL 9-15 ships with local resources. And a starport would need to be able to provide all the services of a class B starport to get a class B rating.


Hans

Agreed, and the landgrab entry says this:

Heyans have not completely rejected technology; they just judge whether an
item is necessary to their lives. Each farming community will have one
grav ambulance with a life support unit to handle emergencies, and most
farmsteads have ties to the global weather net. The overall mix of
technological levels can become very confusing, as a local will actively
embrace one item, but refuse to use a similar item for reason that are
incomprehensible to the observer.

So if Heyans judge that a fully capable Class B Starport is necessary to help the export of their agricultural produce, they'll import the tech to build one, or contracting with an outside supplier such as the Imperium via its ITA to build and maintain one.

 

[rancke]

Agreed, and the landgrab entry says this:

Since I hope to sell my adventures to JTAS Online and/or Mongoose, I can't base my background material on anyone's landgrab (unless they explicitly allows such use in the landgrab document, which I must confess I haven't checked to see is the case with the Heya landgrab[*].)

[*] There's a Heya landgrab?​

(Besides, a landgrab is not canon and I'd probably prefer my own ideas anyway (A writeup in a JTAS Online article now, that I'd probably feel compelled to use[**])).

[**] Hi Don! :devil:​

So if Heyans judge that a fully capable Class B Starport is necessary to help the export of their agricultural produce, they'll import the tech to build one, or contracting with an outside supplier such as the Imperium via its ITA to build and maintain one.

Why would they think that? If the export business is strong enough to support a fleet of spacecraft built at the inflated prices imported machinery and components would entail, why can't they just import cheaper spacecraft from the place they can get the machinery and components?

And if they do feel like importing the technology, the place to build the boatyard would be at the jumpport.


Hans

 

[Reban]

There's a Heya landgrab here http://landgrab.downport.com/sectors/spinward/regina/heya.htm

I found it by looking up Heya on the Traveller wiki and following the link.


Why would I think they'd have a fully equipped Class B Starport? Well because it's in the UPP. Why would I think they'd import the tech to build one? Well I'm basing this off the character of the Heyans in the landgrab info; they don't want technology to dominate their lives when low tech solutions will do just fine but they are not apposed to importing useful and necessary tech where its needed.

Heya is a agricultural and rich planet. Exporting their agri produce is the basis of their trade so they'll need a port capable of receiving the product from all over the planet, storing it, loading it aboard vessels that can at least get it into orbit (these are either starships or systemships to get to the jump-port).

The main roll for the boatyard would be maintaining those vessels climbing up and down the gravity well. Suppose they are using barges or pods to contain the produce (I think in this case its a flour or meal made from weed). Those barges might have to be produced specially for the carriage of the flour/meal. Where are they most likely to be damaged? Close to the planet during handling or re-entry. Think about it like a big shunting yard on a railway. They might not be building locomotives but they'll change out the running gear on wagons and do all the specialist maintenance close to the working sidings.

You can import any of these items, but that becomes false economy when you need to repair, modify and improve them where the work happens.

What we are actually talking about here is logistics. Its not just about having a spaceship or a spaceport, its about all the systems and systems of systems that go along with supporting it.

 

[rancke]

There's a Heya landgrab here http://landgrab.downport.com/sectors/spinward/regina/heya.htm

I found it by looking up Heya on the Traveller wiki and following the link.

I was just indicating that I hadn't seen the landgrab. I've done a quick browse now and note that there are several discrepancies with previously published material. (Including changing the K6 II star to a K6 V star. Evidently Doug Berry and I agree on that point at least ).

Why would I think they'd have a fully equipped Class B Starport?

Who says what now? I asked why the Heyans would think they needed all the facilities of a class B starport.

Well because it's in the UPP. Why would I think they'd import the tech to build one? Well I'm basing this off the character of the Heyans in the landgrab info; they don't want technology to dominate their lives when low tech solutions will do just fine but they are not apposed to importing useful and necessary tech where its needed.

I would base it on the fact that they would have to import the technology in order to have a class B starport.

The main role for the boatyard would be maintaining those vessels climbing up and down the gravity well. Suppose they are using barges or pods to contain the produce (I think in this case its a flour or meal made from weed). Those barges might have to be produced specially for the carriage of the flour/meal. Where are they most likely to be damaged? Close to the planet during handling or re-entry. Think about it like a big shunting yard on a railway. They might not be building locomotives but they'll change out the running gear on wagons and do all the specialist maintenance close to the working sidings.

Maintenance and repair is fine. Building involves an unnecessary expense.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

...If the export business is strong enough to support a fleet of spacecraft built at the inflated prices imported machinery and components would entail, why can't they just import cheaper spacecraft from the place they can get the machinery and components?

And if they do feel like importing the technology, the place to build the boatyard would be at the jumpport.

Hans

I thinks Hans is entirely correct here. If they don't currently have the TL they CAN'T build a ship or boat yard of the required level. If they imported the higher TL EVERYTHING needed, they don't have the TL required to support it. They'd have to import all of the tech people in addition to the infrastructure.

If we believe anything else then we have to allow a TL1 world to build and maintain a TL 15 starport/shipyard/boatyard.

I do like T5s position that you CAN operate at a slightly higher TL, still, there are limits!

Just a thought but when travel between stars becomes relatively trivial people are going to take journeys across parsecs, spend weeks in transit and go through all sorts of hardship, just to climb a mountain on a planet. Why? Because it's there.

And those will, by I3 income standards, be the very rich.

Several weeks/months living expense as well as Starship passage adds up quick. Then the cost of guides and outfitting equipment...

I do agree, some people will do it. Millions would visit Disney World so Orlando Florida will have a great economy. A few 10s to 100s will climb Mount Everest or K2, so, the Himalaya areas will still have a poor economy.

Rich people will do what rich people do, but, the easier the access, the more of them will go there.

Heya looks more like the Himalayas than Orlando.

 

[HG_B]

A TL5 Boatyard could be producing manned V2 type rockets.

No. Manned space rockets are TL 6.

 

[Reban]

Who says what now? I asked why the Heyans would think they needed all the facilities of a class B starport.

I would base it on the fact that they would have to import the technology in order to have a class B starport.

Okay but I was basing my answer on why I thought the Heyans had a reason to need a Class B port not on whether they had the native capacity to maintain it. If I meet a Heyan I'll ask them why they think they need a Class B port.

I thinks Hans is entirely correct here. If they don't currently have the TL they CAN'T build a ship or boat yard of the required level. If they imported the higher TL EVERYTHING needed, they don't have the TL required to support it. They'd have to import all of the tech people in addition to the infrastructure.

If we believe anything else then we have to allow a TL1 world to build and maintain a TL 15 starport/shipyard/boatyard.

I do like T5s position that you CAN operate at a slightly higher TL, still, there are limits!

This is true. If you don't have a native TL that can support ship building then anything being produced at the Starport is being imported and just assembled. I do think if there is a resource worth exploiting then it might be worth importing all the technology and personnel to run it, like for example building an oil well in the desert. The good thing about Traveller is that you can use other parts of the UPP to represent this kind of imported tech and know how.

There's definitely no reason a TL1 planet could build and support a TL15 Starport/shipyard/boatyard not even with the help of a Monolith.

However (and I'm basing this on T5 WorldGen) the Starport is the interface between a World and wider Stellar Society. There's no reason why the locals have to be responsible for building and maintaining the Starport (actual ship building should draw on the local tech base). If its in the Imperium's interest to keep contact with a world or exploit its position, they can bear the expense of the Starport.

Suppose in an ATU our TL1 society is on a planet half way between two important TL15 planets. The governments of those planets move in and build a Class A Starport with all the facilities and pay for everything because its at the max jump range between them, a natural stop over. Its extraterritorial because it belongs to the two governments not the world. In T5 terms there is no Prime Directive so technology leaks across the XT line and the Worlds TL is modified to TL7. Does this mean the Starport can produce Starships from local resources? No. Does it mean it can import and assemble all the bits to make a Starship. I'd say yes. Are the locals still wearing animal skins and using bronze tools with the odd solar powered TV in remote areas? I'd argue its possible.

And those will, by I3 income standards, be the very rich.

Several weeks/months living expense as well as Starship passage adds up quick. Then the cost of guides and outfitting equipment...

I do agree, some people will do it. Millions would visit Disney World so Orlando Florida will have a great economy. A few 10s to 100s will climb Mount Everest or K2, so, the Himalaya areas will still have a poor economy.

Rich people will do what rich people do, but, the easier the access, the more of them will go there.

Heya looks more like the Himalayas than Orlando.

I agree. "By the end of the 2010 climbing season, there had been 5,104 ascents to the summit by about 3,142 individuals" -Wikipedia stats. It seems to average about 160 ascents a year and almost none of the income generated reaches the local population.

There's a big difference between a resort world and a tourist destination. A resort world should have a huge volume of traffic in and out. A tourist destination might only be visited rarely. Thomas Cook the founded a travel agency in the 1800's that specialized in getting to what were then distant and hard to reach places. "While expensive enough that the trip would likely be the only one in their lifetime, the company would arrange for a variety of activities new to the middle class including museum visits, the opera, and mountain climbing." There's definitly potential for such a travel agency in Traveller.

No. Manned space rockets are TL 6.

Vostok 1 was launched 1961 thats TL6/7

The V2 was first launched in 1942 thats TL5

The final operational use of a V2 was in 1945. Thats a 3 year operational life. what I was saying that if you developed a technology and it matures over the course of a TL you might find expanded uses for it.

For example the A12 was a unrealized design based on the V2 which would have been able to put 10 tonnes in LEO.

Manned space rockets are a paradigm shift characteristic of TL6 because you can do it reliably or as a matter of course.

Now if we look at T5 specifically rockets to orbit are TL7 pegged at 1975AD. According to the rules I can actually build an Experimental manned rocket that will get me to orbit at TL4 which is 1900AD. Its pulp, but its doable with a huge amount of resources and cutting edge technological research. Interestingly its also where rocketships to the stars come into public consciousness through Scientific Romances and early cinema in the realworld.