Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Ummmm, within our solar system I might see some validity to that point. But, outside? Unless you have a Scout ship in your garage that we all don't know about?
o: How in the galaxy do you know? 
CT Only: Low Passage and You!
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
o: How in the galaxy do you know? 
I think that you have been misinformed.
A non-high school graduate in Appalachia can rivet copper plate into a boiler capable of 100 psi (part of a still) as far back as TL 3. I strongly suspect that Hero of Alexandria using the full technical capability of the Roman Empire could achieve a similar technical capability. All of the other pieces - valves, rods, gears, linkages - were already in use for other applications in Ancient Rome.
Wooden cars on wooden rails go back to AD 1500, so a railroad at TL 1 is possible and at TL 2 is probable ... with a large central government and a transportation need.
Ummmm, within our solar system I might see some validity to that point. But, outside? Unless you have a Scout ship in your garage that we all don't know about?
I could answer that, but then I'd have to kill you.
Seriously, I simply take the planetologists word at face value ... the Earth-moon system was formed from a Mars-size world colliding with a Venus-size Earth ... the iron cores combined and formed a new Earth core and the lighter crusts were ejected to form an unusually large moon. If true, how common of an event can that be?
...An isolated colony in an asteroid belt learns to live in tunnels at TL 4 (steam power, Bessemer converters, foundaries, and lots of hydraulic and mechanical gears and devices. So they build a craft similar to the USS Monitor and a vacuum rated diving suit and explore other asteroids by using black powder canisters to perform orbital transfers. (You get the idea.)
So what TL are they?
TL6-7, or they've mastered some trick for not needing oxygen. Something's gotta be constantly converting CO2 to O2 on a scale large enough to support the colony, likewise that Monitoroid spacecraft. Either that, or they're a MegaTrav doomed world breathing on technology they can no longer maintain.
Don't they need tech trained outsiders to take the stuff to the 100D limit and bring back the goodies? Maybe a deserted island in the middle of the ocean would be better.
The ship may pose a problem (I haven't done research on that).
The colony relies on Phytoplankton in the fish farm and hydroponics tanks for oxygen production. Reading up on the food and life support for a proposed Mars Colony, I see almost nothing proposed that did not exist at TL 4.
[OK, I have a fascination with hard-science steam-punk.]
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Yes, but those outsiders live in the jump-port, and to go back there with their ship to rest. Their contact with the home-world is limited to unloading & loading cargo from/into their ship.
And they are far fewer in number than the shipyard workers are... which is why the shipyard is NOT on or in orbit around the main-world, but out at the jump-port! The shipyard workers also live in the large habitat/jump-port/shipyard, and not on the home-world!
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Designed at TL6/7, specifically to be built and maintained at TL4.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Hmmmmm.... A trader with a sailing ship facade around it? Would it be considered aerodynamic?
Phytoplankton require a certain amount of light for what you're talking about, also temperatures suitable for liquid water. Could come from sunlight, assuming the asteroid belt is at a reasonable distance from the local star, but you need a way to expose the plankton to the light - ergo, the kind of glassmaking tech that can deliver glass thick enough to deal with vacuum. I don't know enough about glassmaking to say whether TL4 is up to that task, and zero-g glass production presents some unique challenges - I don't know if that would make it easier or harder. Alternately, could come from some sort of artificial lighting system available to TL4, but you need an energy source to power it. What is the proposed power source for a TL4 asteroid colony?
The liquid water temperature didn't concern me ... the people need the same temperature. Ironically, the super-insulating properties of the vacuum of space and the 640 BTU per person latent heat load suggest that even a colony on pluto would spend more effort focused on cooling the colony that heating it. Light is another matter.
The Romantic in me wants to see something like the Crystal Palace with cast iron frames supporting small thick panes of glass over a lush forest (with gentlemen in overcoats and ladies with parasols strolling along flagstone paths in a Frederick Law Olmsted - Central Park, NYC - park).
In my more practical moments, I picture an iron multi-tube flash boiler - sort of a cross between the boiler on a Stanley Steamer and the boiler on a 4-8-8-4 Big Boy locomotive, atop a concrete tower, exposed to the vacuum of space and surrounded by mirrors that focus the sunlight on the metal boiler. A simple pump forces water into the pipes, where it flash boils and the steam operates pistons that turn flywheels that power electric generators that light the hydroponic gardens.
Mirrors shaped like a reversed Fresnel lens feel very TL 4 steam-punk to me.
Cast iron frames supporting small thick panes of glass over another set of cast iron frames supporting small thick panes of glass over another set of cast iron frames supporting small thick panes of glass over ... you get the point. Each set of frames is sealed, the pressure slightly lower than the pressure in the set below it. You might need ten sets or so, but it means you can handle the increase in pressure stepwise so no single pane has to handle more than a pound or two difference. With adequate safety margin, failure of one or two won't be critical
Solar power, then. Interesting ideas. Power output's low compared to what we're used to with our fusion plants, but it might be serviceable.
As a matter of curiosity, why are these people there in the first place? Mining?
A 4 inch (100 mm) thick glass block wall with cast iron supports at 5 feet (1.5 m) on center each way should resist in excess of 100 psf (over 1 ton per panel or a 200 mph wind load) and would probably be bulletproof for most handguns. At first glance, glass would appear to be about half as strong as common aluminum (but there are more factors to check before accepting that as a rule of thumb).
Why any society would be in space at TL 4 is indeed the big question. The best idea that I can come up with is something like the 'Long Night' of Traveller history ... they started out higher, but were abandoned (for some reason) and are just struggling to survive ... although they may have long since stabilized at an early industrial TL 4. I remember reading once that it was possible to obtain orbit from the moon using a catapult, so they could actually be on a moon or dwarf planet as easily as an asteroid belt. The asteroid belt just gives them somewhere near to go to.
Culturally, there are actually several good reasons to reject much of the social change needed for a TL 5 or TL 6 society. At TL 4, the concept of a craftsman learning his trade from a master craftsmen (perhaps his father) is still valid. The skill and ability of a single individual matters more. Low mobility tends to create a stronger local community. ... They, as a people, may not want to shatter their communities, become semi-skilled human machines in a massive factory that turns out mass produced items with little concern about the skill of the individual craftsmen. They might reject the cultural changes needed to achieve a modern urban and highly industrial society.
Why any society would be in space at TL 4 is indeed the big question. The best idea that I can come up with is something like the 'Long Night' of Traveller history ... they started out higher, but were abandoned (for some reason) and are just struggling to survive ... although they may have long since stabilized at an early industrial TL 4. I remember reading once that it was possible to obtain orbit from the moon using a catapult, so they could actually be on a moon or dwarf planet as easily as an asteroid belt. The asteroid belt just gives them somewhere near to go to.
Culturally, there are actually several good reasons to reject much of the social change needed for a TL 5 or TL 6 society. At TL 4, the concept of a craftsman learning his trade from a master craftsmen (perhaps his father) is still valid. The skill and ability of a single individual matters more. Low mobility tends to create a stronger local community. ... They, as a people, may not want to shatter their communities, become semi-skilled human machines in a massive factory that turns out mass produced items with little concern about the skill of the individual craftsmen. They might reject the cultural changes needed to achieve a modern urban and highly industrial society.
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Remember, plants don't convert CO2 to O2...
Is it really a significant point that plants convert CO2 to sugars and release O2 from water?
Don't animals complete the cycle by consuming sugars and O2 and releasing CO2 and water?
Yes, it is when considering a closed biosphere. Designing one on the false premise that plants crack CO2 from the atmosphere & release that O2, rather than it being H2O that is cracked will result in disaster.
Let's test that theory.
Meet FRED - a genetically engineered nano-technology robotic plant that cracks CO2 into O2 and elemental Carbon and combines the C with water (H2O) to produce a complex edible paste made of chains of C,H and O. So FRED requires water and CO2 to survive while generating sugar (high fructose syrup) and O2.
How is my biosphere different using Fred vs using a normal plant?
The only difference that I see is the need to eat candy rather than salad?
My biology wasn't that good back in my prime, and that was some time ago ... but this looks like a distinction without a difference to me.
using the TL 4 tools available (the point of this recent conversation). It fails horribly. :rofl:
Mea Culpa.
Fast moving threads can be unwieldy at times. I like the nano-tech stuff though.
Sifu Blackirish
SOC-14 1K
Funny you shopuld make such a request...
"I will tell you about how I came to be here if you are appropriately dressed."
Merethe chuckled.
"I still have my boots on."
"Very good!"
He sat down his own drink, spun, lay down and pulled a white kreela silk sheet over them both. All of this was done in a single smooth motion. After retrieving his drink and cuddling again, he began his tale.
"You may be wondering why a bright young man like me would come to live in a place like this..."
#
(2222)
I am bored. Bored. BORED! Who knew that early retirement could be so tough?
I have come full circle. From those first days when I checked cold cells for adequate maintenance, it was quite a shock to suddenly find myself commisioned and on a charter for some mystery patron. Boredom followed, many long watches checking instruments and keeping logbooks, ensuring our frozen travelers remained secure and only half-dead.
As junior officer, I was stuck with what the Navy calls 'delta' shift. Third watch, 2000 to 0800, middle of the night. That actually turned out to be a good thing, for when that explosion warped the bulkhead partition and depressurized our compartment, I was the only one prepared.
I don't know how long it took me to maneuver those chilly canisters from the meat locker into a nearby damaged lifeboat. I lost track of how many times I was smashed against the partition walls by them while working in zero gravity and a rapidly dissipating atmosphere. I don't remember how many times I was shocked while trying to force seldom used relays to respond to new external signals.
I released the lifeboat and made sure the autopilot was engaged. I have no experience whatsoever with flying, and now is not the time to start. After that, all I could do was force myself to stay awake and keep a watch on my frozen charges.
There would be no help from the emergency medical kits all lifeboats were supposed to have, since this boat had nothing. Occasionally at first, then more frequently, I would give myself the only stimulant available, a feed of pressurized pure oxygen to help stay alert.
I watched with decreasing attention as my lifeboat searched for and traveled to a nearby world. I could feel it descend into atmosphere and make gentle 'S' curves as it dissipated energy and velocity. Finally I fell asleep, after forty-one hours, just a few minutes before landing. A hard thump woke me up to see a smooth rollout and rapidly approaching emergency equipment.
"Local boy makes good" was a headline in my Idaho hometown. On the newsnet I received my 'fifteen minutes of fame' when I received a commendation and a surprise promotion. Commissioned and promoted in the same cruise? Fast track on the road to Captain's stripes!
Too bad everything fell apart after that investigation. As interviews and examinations continued, layers of neglect and poor maintenance were revealed. It appeared that my cold cells were the only item up to a maintenance standard.
On the 'slow motion' interstellar stock exchange, Premier Lines stock took a tumble. Bad public news, whispered word of mouth and secretive whistleblowers fed off each other to present a picture of indifference at best, fraud at worst. There was an assumption by the public that anyone associated with soon to be bankrupt Premier was a 'problem child' and deserved no second chances.
Despite all my good karma, no other Merchant House wanted to hire me. Rather than investigate on their own, they believed the press and refused. What can I do now?
I thought that my experience would come in handy in a medical field. After all, there are people who are placed in cold cells for many reasons, anything from surgical prep to prison sentences, even collateral for loans.
Still there were no job offers. Every time people found out about my association with Premier, doors were suddenly shut in my face. Are you kidding me?
I did have one option, one that might not involve Premier. I had a voucher, fortunately in an escrow account, that allowed me to go to school for two years, all expenses paid. Perhaps if I go 'under the radar' for a while, things will quiet down and I can get on with my life!
It was difficult, but I did it. I never did like or do so well in school, but this was a little different. This was a matter of survival. I took an extensive course in poisons and antidotes, thinking I might be able to get work in an emergency room or a poison control center.
Silly notion. Perhaps someone was watching, waiting for me to surface again. That must be it, for I encountered more closed doors. How is this possible?
"I will tell you about how I came to be here if you are appropriately dressed."
Merethe chuckled.
"I still have my boots on."
"Very good!"
He sat down his own drink, spun, lay down and pulled a white kreela silk sheet over them both. All of this was done in a single smooth motion. After retrieving his drink and cuddling again, he began his tale.
"You may be wondering why a bright young man like me would come to live in a place like this..."
#
(2222)
I am bored. Bored. BORED! Who knew that early retirement could be so tough?
I have come full circle. From those first days when I checked cold cells for adequate maintenance, it was quite a shock to suddenly find myself commisioned and on a charter for some mystery patron. Boredom followed, many long watches checking instruments and keeping logbooks, ensuring our frozen travelers remained secure and only half-dead.
As junior officer, I was stuck with what the Navy calls 'delta' shift. Third watch, 2000 to 0800, middle of the night. That actually turned out to be a good thing, for when that explosion warped the bulkhead partition and depressurized our compartment, I was the only one prepared.
I don't know how long it took me to maneuver those chilly canisters from the meat locker into a nearby damaged lifeboat. I lost track of how many times I was smashed against the partition walls by them while working in zero gravity and a rapidly dissipating atmosphere. I don't remember how many times I was shocked while trying to force seldom used relays to respond to new external signals.
I released the lifeboat and made sure the autopilot was engaged. I have no experience whatsoever with flying, and now is not the time to start. After that, all I could do was force myself to stay awake and keep a watch on my frozen charges.
There would be no help from the emergency medical kits all lifeboats were supposed to have, since this boat had nothing. Occasionally at first, then more frequently, I would give myself the only stimulant available, a feed of pressurized pure oxygen to help stay alert.
I watched with decreasing attention as my lifeboat searched for and traveled to a nearby world. I could feel it descend into atmosphere and make gentle 'S' curves as it dissipated energy and velocity. Finally I fell asleep, after forty-one hours, just a few minutes before landing. A hard thump woke me up to see a smooth rollout and rapidly approaching emergency equipment.
"Local boy makes good" was a headline in my Idaho hometown. On the newsnet I received my 'fifteen minutes of fame' when I received a commendation and a surprise promotion. Commissioned and promoted in the same cruise? Fast track on the road to Captain's stripes!
Too bad everything fell apart after that investigation. As interviews and examinations continued, layers of neglect and poor maintenance were revealed. It appeared that my cold cells were the only item up to a maintenance standard.
On the 'slow motion' interstellar stock exchange, Premier Lines stock took a tumble. Bad public news, whispered word of mouth and secretive whistleblowers fed off each other to present a picture of indifference at best, fraud at worst. There was an assumption by the public that anyone associated with soon to be bankrupt Premier was a 'problem child' and deserved no second chances.
Despite all my good karma, no other Merchant House wanted to hire me. Rather than investigate on their own, they believed the press and refused. What can I do now?
I thought that my experience would come in handy in a medical field. After all, there are people who are placed in cold cells for many reasons, anything from surgical prep to prison sentences, even collateral for loans.
Still there were no job offers. Every time people found out about my association with Premier, doors were suddenly shut in my face. Are you kidding me?
I did have one option, one that might not involve Premier. I had a voucher, fortunately in an escrow account, that allowed me to go to school for two years, all expenses paid. Perhaps if I go 'under the radar' for a while, things will quiet down and I can get on with my life!
It was difficult, but I did it. I never did like or do so well in school, but this was a little different. This was a matter of survival. I took an extensive course in poisons and antidotes, thinking I might be able to get work in an emergency room or a poison control center.
Silly notion. Perhaps someone was watching, waiting for me to surface again. That must be it, for I encountered more closed doors. How is this possible?
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