In the game that is represented by increased TL. Hence my comment. Thus, it wouldn't be TL 5 manned space fight...
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In the game that is represented by increased TL. Hence my comment. Thus, it wouldn't be TL 5 manned space fight...
Let me explain my point in a little more detail.
Each TL represents a significant increase over the capabilities of a previous TL, roughly an order of magnitude increase.
The technology existed in 1935 to allow the Exploer II crew to survive at 22,000m. Pressure capsules and pressure suits were in use aboard aircraft.
The A12 derivative of the V2 that I mentioned was designed at TL5.
Although its possible to get into space at earlier TLs it only becomes reasonable and reliable to achieve orbit with a manned rocket at TL7.
To do it at TL5 will probably take a disproportionate amount of time money and energy. But Tech Levels aren't hard lines, they bleed into each other a little. Late in a TL you can do things that become common place mid way through the next TL.
80km
Vladika
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Do you have any idea of the failure rate of the V2? It was hideous! Way to many exploded or crashed at launch. The A12 never became operational. Navigation, from the European coast to England targets was at best "problematic". At best. Now, navigation from orbit at TL5?
How would maned re-entry work? Where, seriously, given the TL5 equipment, would you safely retrieve an astronaut? Or find him/her/them?
NASA benefited greatly (more than greatly, as did the Russian program) from the captured German scientists and engineers, but, the first manned flights were far from TL5.
Honestly, I'm not trying to stifle your creative thoughts, but you need a better example to support your contention that the one given. Just wait till TL6?
WHile the first flights were basically german tech, I agree, they aren't mid-TL5. But they clearly aren't TL6. Real life doesn't do Tech Levels... but people assign them.
There are clear breakthrough technologies... they would be definitive for certain TL's
TL1: the forge
TL2: routine iron working, including steel.
TL3: early electricity
TL4: the production line.
TL5: Vacuum tubes.
TL6: Transistors
TL7: inexpensive semiconductor IC's.
TL8: Fusion
TL9: Gravitic thrust and Jump Drives
TL10: Inertial Compensation and Artificial Gravity
TL11: J2 (Nothing else of note)
TL12: Personal gravitics, improved fusion. "Meson" guns.
There are clear breakthrough technologies... they would be definitive for certain TL's
TL1: the forge
TL2: routine iron working, including steel.
TL3: early electricity
TL4: the production line.
TL5: Vacuum tubes.
TL6: Transistors
TL7: inexpensive semiconductor IC's.
TL8: Fusion
TL9: Gravitic thrust and Jump Drives
TL10: Inertial Compensation and Artificial Gravity
TL11: J2 (Nothing else of note)
TL12: Personal gravitics, improved fusion. "Meson" guns.
DESIGNED. That type of vehicle wasn't ale to be built until TL 6. It is de facto.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
So...... TL5 low berths.......?
<ahem>
<ahem>
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Didn't the Egyptians have those at TL 1?
aragraph:mega::alpha::ssb:aragraph:mega: <- hieroglyphics
You're right the V2 is a bad example, but it's an example anyone not familiar with early rocketry would understand. Thanks for the constructive criticism. Definitely historic manned flights were well into TL6 and a sustainable space program with reliable launch recovery and sustained operation in space sits firmly in TL7.
What I'm really pondering on is if we or another world sat at TL5 for a longer period than we historically did (about 20-30 years) would we make use of the technology at our disposal to solve technical problems usually overcome by the major paradigm shifts represented by a change in TL.
Could Earth have achieved manned spaceflight if it was held at TL5 for a century? Could lowberth science or cryogenics improve over a prolonged TL9 and provide more efficient or safer freezing and revival?
Can alternative technologies at earlier TLs provide solutions only achieved at higher TLs. Aramis's list is very important, these are clear break throughs but there is a phase of natural overlap were the new technology begins to surpass the old and then replace it.
It was designed at TL5 to utilize the basic technologies available, there was no new discovery or paradigm shift necessary, it was just bigger, over engineered and more powerful. It was not equal to the Mercury or Vostok just a different more primitive design route.
Advice of an old Scout "Just because its a TL5 world don't discount the possibility of meeting a local in orbit".
China's Fanhui Shi Weixing re-entry vehicle used oak heat shields. Using wood is TL0-1 right? :rofl:
There are multiple methods of surviving re-entry, for example SpaceShipOne uses feathering to slow down at higher altitudes and thus suffer less atmospheric heating. There are also active cryo cooling methods and detachable aeroshells.
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Prototypes are often designed and even built at the previous tech level. It doesn't become established technology until it matures. Revolvers were being built by Napoleonic Era gunsmiths. Colt began manufacturing them in 1838, but they didn't become common until decades later.
Hans
TL means what is manufactured not just "designed". You keep beating a dead horse.
Earth history is, by its nature, very Earth centered ... but Earth has a double-sized core making it far denser than the average world (even within our solar system). Earth is also fairly large by Traveller world standards.
Could a Redstone rocket (mature V2 technology) reach orbit from a Venus size/gravity world with an Earth-like atmosphere? I think that the answer is probably a YES.
IMHO, a TL 5 Rocket is more plausible in Traveller than Earth history and the V2 would suggest.
(Although I might also concede that even the V2 was probably closer to an early TL 6 technology than a TL 5 technology. With TL 5 viewed as roughly comparable to 1900 to 1940, 1938 is a lot closer to TL 6 than the TL 5 working out the details of heavier than air flight.)
Could a Redstone rocket (mature V2 technology) reach orbit from a Venus size/gravity world with an Earth-like atmosphere? I think that the answer is probably a YES.
IMHO, a TL 5 Rocket is more plausible in Traveller than Earth history and the V2 would suggest.
(Although I might also concede that even the V2 was probably closer to an early TL 6 technology than a TL 5 technology. With TL 5 viewed as roughly comparable to 1900 to 1940, 1938 is a lot closer to TL 6 than the TL 5 working out the details of heavier than air flight.)
Manned rockets is one of the items on the tech level chart. It is by definition TL6. If mature V2 technology is good enough for manned space vehicles then mature V2 technology is by definition TL6. If there are examples of such craft in Earth's history prior to the usual demarcation line between TL5 and TL6, then those examples are either prototypes or show that Earth was advanced in space technology at the time. Under no circumstances are manned rockets TL5. By definition.
Hans
Hans,
No real argument from me on the semantics of TL 5 vs TL 6 manned rocketry.
One fly in the ointment of the basic concept of TL is the role of luck in the dissemination of information. A famous example is the concept of a an ancient Roman Railroad. Hero of Alexandria had the basic concept of harnessing the power of steam to do work. Rome had all of the pump, valve and linkage technology needed to build a 19th Century steam engine in use in water powered mills and mines. So what if a Leonardo DaVinci had been born in Ancient Rome and put the pieces together. Would Rome have jumped from TL 1 to TL 4?
I am not disparaging the concept of TLs ... they serve a very real meta game function of answering the question "So what kind of stuff can my character buy on this world?" The concept just has practical limitations and lends itself to paradoxes.
An isolated colony in an asteroid belt learns to live in tunnels at TL 4 (steam power, Bessemer converters, foundaries, and lots of hydraulic and mechanical gears and devices. So they build a craft similar to the USS Monitor and a vacuum rated diving suit and explore other asteroids by using black powder canisters to perform orbital transfers. (You get the idea.)
So what TL are they?
No real argument from me on the semantics of TL 5 vs TL 6 manned rocketry.
One fly in the ointment of the basic concept of TL is the role of luck in the dissemination of information. A famous example is the concept of a an ancient Roman Railroad. Hero of Alexandria had the basic concept of harnessing the power of steam to do work. Rome had all of the pump, valve and linkage technology needed to build a 19th Century steam engine in use in water powered mills and mines. So what if a Leonardo DaVinci had been born in Ancient Rome and put the pieces together. Would Rome have jumped from TL 1 to TL 4?
I am not disparaging the concept of TLs ... they serve a very real meta game function of answering the question "So what kind of stuff can my character buy on this world?" The concept just has practical limitations and lends itself to paradoxes.
An isolated colony in an asteroid belt learns to live in tunnels at TL 4 (steam power, Bessemer converters, foundaries, and lots of hydraulic and mechanical gears and devices. So they build a craft similar to the USS Monitor and a vacuum rated diving suit and explore other asteroids by using black powder canisters to perform orbital transfers. (You get the idea.)
So what TL are they?
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Mount Lookitthat, on Plateau.
And keep it far enough away to not allow the tech-trained outsiders running it to "contaminate" the main population. Like out near the stellar 100D limit.
Exactly.
An isolated colony in an asteroid belt learns to live in tunnels at TL 4 (steam power, Bessemer converters, foundaries, and lots of hydraulic and mechanical gears and devices. So they build a craft similar to the USS Monitor and a vacuum rated diving suit and explore other asteroids by using black powder canisters to perform orbital transfers. (You get the idea.)
So what TL are they?
Solid-fuel rockets for fireworks are documented in China around 1300 BC. Rockets as military weapons were developed in China in ~1000 AD.
In 1591 a gentleman named Von Schmidlap proposed multi-stage rockets, and methods of stabilizing them, in a book about non-military rockets.
In 1781 Hyder Ali of India used rockets with a range of a mile against the British.
In 1800 William Congreve began experimenting with improving Indian rockets, and by 1806 they were standard issue weapons for the British Army (see the siege of Fort McHenry in the US during the War of 1812 - as mentioned in the lyrics to the US National Anthem).
So no need for black powder canisters for propulsion, solid-fuel propulsion rockets were available at TL3 (or 4).
What I've seen argued is that you can't build a practical steam engine with TL1 metallurgy. You need TL4 metallurgy.
That said, there are inventions that just don't get thought of until long after they could have been. Likewise, Traveller fails to distinguish between discovery TLs and application TLs. You probably need microscopes to develop the germ theory of disease, but you can implement sterile procedures as soon as you can boil water. So for Traveller TLs, I think the salient question is "What can you do with TL X tools if someone tells you all about how to go about it?" Which would, IMO, push some technologies down to a lower level than looking at when they were discovered on Earth would suggest.
An isolated colony in an asteroid belt learns to live in tunnels at TL 4 (steam power, Bessemer converters, foundaries, and lots of hydraulic and mechanical gears and devices. So they build a craft similar to the USS Monitor and a vacuum rated diving suit and explore other asteroids by using black powder canisters to perform orbital transfers. (You get the idea.)
So what TL are they?
First I'd marvel at their ability to maintain space habitats with TL 4 technology. Then I'd invent a new TL 4 category of spacecraft and point out that these people still can't build V2s.
Hans
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