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Low-Tech maneuver drives

IMTU, I actually modified all meneuver drives to be reactive of one sort or another. Some are ion, some are nuke, some are various other things. The main reason for it wasn't so much for realism or anything like that, but so I could throw in the RP of identifying, at last vaguely, the kind of ship that just passed, landed, whatever at least so far as type of drive and size of drive, by what sort of debris/damage/trail it left behind.
 
If you are doing reaction drives the math gets very messy. Unless you pull a HEPLar and tack a patently bogus explaNation onto reactionless drive mechanics and pretend you are being realistic.

I think I have alredy screamed enough aBOUT THe mIs-use of the phrase "ion drive".
 
Uncle Bob:
I think I have alredy screamed enough aBOUT THe mIs-use of the phrase "ion drive".
:confused:

Uncle Bob, I like your insight on these boards so would be interested in seeing your general definition of an "ion drive" and how the term is commonly misused.

I assume this is not a problem with NASA's use of the term but rather the use as a catch-all in games? My view, and this is purely from my work for the AFOSR on Xe+ based drives, is right in line with NASAs description. Being on the more fundamental research end of things I'm not sure if there is another commonly accepted definition.

Although interested, I won't ask for your take on TNE/T4 reaction drives as I suspect these rules have already been discussed ad nauseum.

I will say from a FFS2 houserules web page doc I came across, the HEPLAR drives violate conservation of energy, i.e., the total energy put into the exhaust was about a facator of 10 lower than the KE energy developed by 1 turn of constant acceleration. A "hard SF" approach would require one to fix this. A simple fix might be to cap the velocity (and hence total energy) of the missile/ship etc. based on power plant energy output. This is the approach I'm thinking of taking IMTU.
 
I think we can agree that an ion drive involves the electrostatic acceleration of nuclei. Limited to an Isp of about 3-5K. Higher Isps can be acheived by MPD or MHD device.

Conservation of energy, yes. Also conservation of momentum. Now with the (IMHO) most likely model for the CT maneuver drive you need 4 GW/ton to move at 1G, but there is a lot of grey area. HEPLAR is described too precisely to get away with that. Thrust plates should require more power to maintain a constant accel as the ship picks`up speed relative to local gravity.
 
4 GW/ton? Based on Beltstrike, CT exhaust velocity is several times the speed of light. If we limit it to 'only' lightspeed, fuel consumption is about 0.02 tons LHd/week per ton of thrust, and power output is 3 TW (not GW) per ton of thrust.

HEPlaR was slightly more reasonable (about 0.13c) which works out to a mere 200GW/ton.
 
Ahh, the Beltstrike maneuver drive. The one that generates a screen to protect from radiation.

There had to be more to the CT reaction drive than chucking stuff out the back.
 
The trick is to not bother with the math of the reaction drives, and just say "This is how it works. Do you understand gravitational physics? Quantum mechanics? Lots of other sciences I don't know the names of? No? Me either. This is how it works." And I didn't change a damn thing about the size, power, or fuel consumption of the drives. The only things I changed were a few of the visible/physical effects of the drives on their environment for effect, and nobody knows that I have no idea if it's accuate or not.
 
Uncle Bob
I think we can agree that an ion drive involves the electrostatic acceleration of nuclei. Limited to an Isp of about 3-5K. Higher Isps can be acheived by MPD or MHD device.
Agree with that and would class a "true" ion drive as those that accelrate ions of only one charge type, i.e., either positive or negative ions.

Conservation of energy, yes. Also conservation of momentum. ... HEPLAR is described too precisely to get away with that.
I'm a strict conservative when it comes to conservation of energy and momentum, not to mention a few laws of thermodynamics.
I agree on the HEPLAR view, not alot of wiggle room,i.e., room for yet to be invented technology or theory, there. The whole KKM discusssion got me rethinking my assumptions about what reaction drives could do, then calculating a few numbers made me realize they can't do what the version of FFS2 rules I found would lead you to believe they can.

Now with the (IMHO) most likely model for the CT maneuver drive you need 4 GW/ton to move at 1G, but there is a lot of grey area....Thrust plates should require more power to maintain a constant accel as the ship picks`up speed relative to local gravity.
I'd be interested in the model.
[excessive reply]My personal model follows, trying to use as much now-known physics as possible with the full realization that such technology requires physics yet to be discovered. That is, Einstein didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle. This is all clearly IMTU and started as an exercise to provide some guidlines to limit, at least IMHO "abuses" by players (or myself) of CT drives. Also, I just like to think about this stuff. I'm veiwing thrust plates as follows.

(1) They create a "field" that warps space-time around a specific volume. The degree of curvature of this field determines acceleration. The field is a weaker and more stable version of the field that allows a ship to enter jump space. It was far easier to reach a "singualrity" in the field equations and hence "jump" than to maitain the smaller curvature for a practical drive, hence the TL delay between FTL and thruster plates.

(2) The effective mass of this volume is greater than that of a solid chunk of lead, e.g., so the mass of the ship is inconsequential in determining the mass accelerated. Thus, preserving the drive based on ship volume and keeping off the design sequence yet another number to track. ;)

(3) Conservation of energy is preserved as follows. The KE energy put into the field comes from a near direct channelling of energy by the conversion of fuel mass to energy (e=mc^2)power plant energy is used to funnel this energy to the field but power plant output alone is not the only energy input. It is more of a direct dumping, made possible by these thrust plate/jump field physics, of energy liberated by conversion of mass into energy into the field. IMTU this is how the energy needed for jump gets consumed (i.e. all that fuel). This is my workaround for where the energy comes from without requiring large power plants. You still need energy in the form of mass though. The energy liberation comes "through" the power plant process so LHyd still is the fuel of choice.

(4) Conservation of momentum is preserved as the warped space time volume "pushes" against the local space-time. That is, when you thrust foward the solar system (or a portion at least) thrusts back, but like jumping up in the air on earth, it's a very, very small distance as the mass of the earth is far larger than the jumper. The difference here is the "mass" is not that of the local interstelalr gas, but an effective mass of placing a dimple or warp in the local space time.

(5) Maintaining the curvature of the field becomes harder as the energy dumped into it increases. The effect places a limit on maximum velocity (i.e, delta v) as there is a limit on maximum energy that can be dumped in. Also the field may collapse if the velocity is too high, not good if you can't restart your drive before you need to stop or turn. You can play around with this limit and whether it is volume dependent or not. The reason, IMTU, to even have such a limit is to preclude "high delta v for free scenarios", so the limit is pretty low. I also run it so smaller volumes (i.e., fighters missiles) can attain higher max. v. An added benefit is controlling max v. makes vector based combat easier to run.[/excessive reply]
 
Archhealer
The trick is to not bother with the math of the reaction drives, and just say "This is how it works. Do you understand gravitational physics? Quantum mechanics? Lots of other sciences I don't know the names of? No?
Actually, yes and yes. Plus ion-molecule reaction dynamics, nuclear chemistry/physics. etc. Having a more than passing knowledge of the possible, I just can't resist postulating what might be possible if a theory of physics allowing such-and-such existed. ;) That all being said...

This is how it works." And I didn't change a damn thing about the size, power, or fuel consumption of the drives. The only things I changed were a few of the visible/physical effects of the drives on their environment for effect, and nobody knows that I have no idea if it's accuate or not.
I think that is fine. IMHO the true measure of a rule is if you can apply the rules IYTU to give the simulation/game play your looking for. From all the web pages and posts I've seen this seems to be true of every version of Traveller ship design.
 
Ptah

Pushing against spacetime can be interpreted two ways. With the new "quantum foam" interpretation of spacetime or by Machs principle (as in the work by Woodward studied by NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics office). Either means moving with respect to the rest-mass of the universe. At our location, our intrinsic velocity is 400 Km/sec, so delta V on the order of 1-40 Km/sec will essentially call for a linear (but very large) change in energy.

Or you can move a bubble of spacetime containing the vehicle (as in the Alcubierre warp), but when you collapse the bubble your vehicle has the intrinsic velocity you started with.
 
Ptah

If You describe thruster plates technology as able to warp and modify local spacetime or perhaps to establish connections to other spacetime coordinates you might not longer depend on conservation laws, because these are laws for narrow local ares of spacetime. (Please no misunderstanding, the whole GR is build on the conservation laws or "symetries", but for infinite small "local" areas of space time).
But as I mentioned in another post, AFAIK the GR describes no conservation of energy on a cosmological scale.

Well another approach might be to view the thruster plate technology as a gate to drain energy from another spacetime to the local one (like one with a usable curvature and thus accelaration vector) So there might be no need for E=mc² matter/energy conversion

Energy/momentum might still be conserved, but on a larger scale.

It took quite a while, but actually I consider thruster plates with their pure fictional (but not provable right or wrong) functionality as more convincing as alternatives like Heplar, which appear to be more physical but are still kind of buggy.

I tried to work with the simple way of just using accelaration derived from m-drive power only. Ok, it produced "realistic" but highly decreasing g-ratings, but as such it changed too much of the TU...

But much more important:
Happy Christmas all together and have a pretty good time away from silly boards
!

Regards,

Mert
 
Uncle Bob,
Good points. Something like this one
Or you can move a bubble of spacetime containing the vehicle (as in the Alcubierre warp), but when you collapse the bubble your vehicle has the intrinsic velocity you started with.
I use as the postulated basis for vectorless drives exhibited by a certain TL17+ species the Imperium and characters come into contact with from time to time.


The Engineer,
I didn't know that GR didn't describe conservation of energy on cosmological scales. Interesting, as from a more physcial chemistry side of things it is the energy and momentum of the whole system that needs to be conserved (draw the line around the universe and throw in a white hole/black hole and all is solved ;) ).

I tried to work with the simple way of just using accelaration derived from m-drive power only. Ok, it produced "realistic" but highly decreasing g-ratings, but as such it changed too much of the TU...
Me to. Me to. Hence, the genesis of the end of postulate (3) ;)

Thanks for the well wishes, Happy Holidays Bob and Mert.
 
Happy Hogmannay, ya'll

Low tech maneuver drives ... how about TL6?

Does anyone remember the Dean Drive? About 1960 Mr. Dean was an eccentric inventor who offered his reactionless drive to the government for one million dollars. He was secretive, even paranoid, and he wanted the money in his hand before he would open his "black box" for inspection. He never got the money.

The Air Force and several Aerospace companies sent representatives to negotiate to no avail. Dean had a patent, but it would never have worked. OTOH, witnesses consistantly reported that the working model did not match the patent, and that they felt the machine "push against my hand".

Well, Dean died, dissapointed, within a few months and AFAIK the last witness (engineer, science writer, and SF author G. Harry Stine) died in the last ten years. Dean's working model was Never Found, but IMHO was the prototype for the Traveller M drive.
 
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