Lull?

[casquilho]

GO MEGATRAVELLER!

I have heard MegaTraveller has a few fans....

Daniel

 

[tbeard1999]

Of course, Marc Miller has done the community a huge favor with his reprints. CT is still in print. So on that front, we're still in good shape.

Agreed. And ironically, this (IMHO) hurts MGT. If the old stuff wasn't available, the "at least it's Traveller and at least it's available" argument would be valid. But the reality is that one can reasonably compare MGT with CT and MT because they are still for sale. The CT LBB1-8 reprints cost the same as MGT. *All* of the supplements cost the same as 1 MGT supplement. Etc. The CD-ROMs are far cheaper, but of course, there's the cost of printing the material out. But the reality is that a CT player can get *all* of the CT rules for the same price as the MGT core books.

So the "there's no other choice" argument is a pretty lame reason to buy MGT in my opinion. This is How It Should Be, IMHO, since a ruleset should stand on its own merits.

 

[Odegra]

My problem with MungTrav is just that it's from Mungoose. I don't have anything against those guys personally, not even that I feel somewhat ripped off by some of their stuff in the past because to buy or not to buy was my decision. They seem like they're into Open Gaming which suggests that they're good fellows. In fact, other considerations aside I expect they'd be fine folks to have a pint with. But that's not really the issue, is it?

The issue for me is that the new Traveller rules, which do represent a change to get new blood into the game, are Munged. I'm sorry but these fellows just can't seem to turn out a quality product. And to have them give the treatment to Traveller, of all games! It's as if they announced a remake of Blade Runner written & directed by and starring Carrot Top. Afterwards people would raise their eyebrows if you said that you were into Blade Runner.

I note that you've never actually said what your problem with MGT is. You seem to just be saying "it's Mongoose, it's got to be crap" which makes you sound like an irrational hater and not like you have any specific problem with it at all.

As for tbeard, I wonder if he actually knows what his problem with MGT is anymore. And if he does, is he capable of expressing it in a constructive, non-confrontational, non-paranoid sounding way? All I see is that he doesn't like how certain aspects of the rules work, in which case I would suggest that he either (a) changes them for his own games and stops complaining about what's published, or (b) just goes and plays something else that he is happy with. But shrieking about how everyone's persecuting him is not particularly helpful to anybody.

And even better, if he could concisely suggest specific changes to make whatever he thinks is broken work, then that would be helpful to everyone. But understand that Mongoose isn't going to change anything in the books until such time as they do a new edition, so railing about what's already there is pointless.

 

[tbeard1999]

I note that you've never actually said what your problem with MGT is. You seem to just be saying "it's Mongoose, it's got to be crap" which makes you sound like an irrational hater and not like you have any specific problem with it at all.

Funny how many of these "irrational haters" you seem to be turning up... Have you encountered any "irrational lovers" of the game?

All I read his statement to say was that, in his experience, Mongoose doesn't seem capable of turning out a "quality product". I infer from the post that he's been disappointed in past Mongoose products (I was underwhelmed by Runequest, but that's the extent of my experience with Mongoose). I think that it's fair to consider a game quality in light of past experience with its publisher. Folks do that all the time in the Real World (example -- I like Toyota because I've had good experiences with Toyotas and I'm likely to be inclined to buy a Toyota again).

As for specifics, perhaps you could simply *ask* him what his complaints with the game are.

As for tbeard, I wonder if he actually knows what his problem with MGT is anymore.

<chuckle> I feel safe in saying that you are the FIRST person to ever accuse me of not being able to define what I dislike in MGT...

Some recent, specific critiques:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=15977&highlight=tbeard1999

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=15976&highlight=tbeard1999

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=15847&page=26&highlight=tbeard1999

Note my recent defense of MGT here (and in some of the above threads):

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=16206&highlight=tbeard1999

(BTW, anyone know how can I search for specific posts by a poster and get the posts themselves rather than the threads? And how can I find out what the URL of a specific post is?)

Here's a representative quote from me (a comparison of MGT and CT in response to someone else who raised the issue):

I have generally avoided direct comparisons with CT, except in cases where I wanted to foreclose the "but CT did it that way" argument. I am not necessarily saying that MGT is inferior to CT; I'm evaluating MGT on its own merits. But since you ask...

I haven't worked MGT out thoroughly yet, my answers are tentative in some areas. But here's my breakdown:

Character Generation: I'm warming to MGT's random system, so MGT probably wins, at least on mechanics. MGT gives *way* too many skills for a 2d6 system IMHO, but that's an easy problem to fix. The issue is more complex because I had no problems with LBB1/Supp4 character generation. The MGT points based system isn't much use IMHO. I prefer my own system there.

Combat: CT is better, though neither system is satisfactory to me. Either AHL or Snapshot is a clear winner over MGT, as are any number of house ruled combat systems, including 2 of my own. This is MGT's biggest disappointment to me, although it could have been FAR worse had they kept the playtest systems.

Starship Design: MGT is a nice improvement over LBB2, though larger hull sizes should have been included. MGT is distinctly inferior to High Guard.

Starship Combat. Still assessing MGT, but it seems clear to me that High Guard is better. LBB2 is not better, but the range band system in Starter Traveller may be better.

Economics: Both broken, but I give CT the title just because it lacks the pointless and ill-conceived "ship shares" system.

World Generation/Animals/Psionics: No opinion yet.

While it's not terribly flattering to MGT, it doesn't seem to me to be overly hateful or negative. As I said, if I'm a mindless MGT hater, I'm not very good at it.

And if he does, is he capable of expressing it in a constructive, non-confrontational, non-paranoid sounding way?

Out of curiousity, have you characterized any MGT criticisms as anything other than "paranoid", "confrontational", etc.?

All I see is that he doesn't like how certain aspects of the rules work, in which case I would suggest that he either (a) changes them for his own games and stops complaining about what's published, or (b) just goes and plays something else that he is happy with. But shrieking about how everyone's persecuting him is not particularly helpful to anybody.

Uh, you seem to be the one constantly mentioning persecution.

In any case, I reject your "MGT Traveller: Love It or Leave It" argument.

Had we followed your advice during the playtest, MGT might have shipped with systems that Mongoose ultimately decided to ditch. As a result of criticism, Mongoose has re-done the starship deckplans so that they are more useful to players. In other words, the game has been improved by criticism.

So I think I'll decline your demand to peremptorily silence speech that you don't like. The best response is to rebut speech you disagree with, not to censor it.

 

[Odegra]

Okay, let's assume that you are not uncritically praising MGT. Would you agree that someone who uncritically praises a game is just as silly as someone who uncritically criticizes it?

Actually no I wouldn't. Do you expect an explanation from everyone who say, likes a particular bar of chocolate? Do you start arguments with them because they don't tell you that they enjoy the nutty taste, or the texture of the chocolate, or whatever? If they said "this chocolate bar is great!" would you call them "silly" for not "backing up their argument"?

Fact is, if you start off a discussion by levying a complaint about something then its up to you to explain what your criticism is. That same expectation isn't present if you start off a discussion by praising something. Sure it's nice to have an explanation so people know what you like about it, but it's not considered obligatory by any means.

Well, you sure do spend a lot of energy on unimportant matters.

I'm pretty sure its nowhere near as much energy as you've expended on arguing about a mere roleplaying game.

Again, you are misrepresenting my statements. I think that the record is pretty conclusive that I am willing to defend my positions against all comers. Now I'll admit that I think that it's extremely cowardly to try to censor someone in lieu of rebutting their arguments. But I think I've been FAR more specific in my arguments that folks like you.

But that's the thing, you've gone on and on about your "positions" so much that I don't even think you know what you're complaining about anymore. Seriously the book is out now and the things you caused so much of a stink about have been fixed and you're still just finding more and more things to rail about. What exactly do you want anyone to do about it? Do you just want everyone to praise you and validate your opinions?

 

[Odegra]

As for specifics, perhaps you could simply *ask* him what his complaints with the game are.

I did. Not explicitly, but that was an invitation for him to be actually specific.

While it's not terribly flattering to MGT, it doesn't seem to me to be overly hateful or negative. As I said, if I'm a mindless MGT hater, I'm not very good at it.

All of which boils down to "I don't like how they did some things". OK, great. We get that.

To that I say, "so what?".

Not every RPG is going to work for everyone. Apparently MGT doesn't really work that well for you, so you can either choose not to play it or you can choose to do something useful and fix what you perceive the problems are and present your fixes to the community so maybe other people who agree. Otherwise, what the hell do you expect anyone to do about what you don't like? If you don't like it, fix it.

Out of curiousity, have you characterized any MGT criticisms as anything other than "paranoid", "confrontational", etc.?

Just yours, because that's how they come across.

In any case, I reject your "MGT Traveller: Love It or Leave It" argument.

Then don't lecture me about "wasting my energy" when you seem intent on doing nothing constructive to address the issues you think are so important.

Had we followed your advice during the playtest, MGT might have shipped with systems that Mongoose ultimately decided to ditch. As a result of criticism, Mongoose has re-done the starship deckplans so that they are more useful to players. In other words, the game has been improved by criticism.

Yes, but what you don't seem to get is that there's a time and a place for it. You criticized the systems in the playtest, and they did get fixed because they could get fixed. The deckplans got fixed too, again becuase they could get fixed before publication. But now you're complaining about the system that's already been published though and you still expect them to fix it apparently.

So I think I'll decline your demand to peremptorily silence speech that you don't like. The best response is to rebut speech you disagree with, not to censor it.

Or you could just annoy everyone so much with your continuous arguments that you'll get banned from the board, and then you can fume on your own. This thread was supposed to be about a "lull" in Traveller and yet somehow you've turned it into yet another soapbox for your MGT complaints.

 

[tbeard1999]

Actually no I wouldn't <say that unconditional lovers of a game are as silly as unconditional haters of a game>. Do you expect an explanation from everyone who say, likes a particular bar of chocolate?

Yes, if they are constantly accusing me of being irrational and having dark and sinister motives because I dislike that same bar of chocolate.

Fact is, if you start off a discussion by levying a complaint about something then its up to you to explain what your criticism is.

Which I have done ad nauseum. To claim otherwise is patently false.

But that's the thing, you've gone on and on about your "positions" so much that I don't even think you know what you're complaining about anymore.

Since this is clearly contradicted by the weight of my posts, your confusion on this is inexplicable.

Seriously the book is out now and the things you caused so much of a stink about have been fixed and you're still just finding more and more things to rail about. What exactly do you want anyone to do about it? Do you just want everyone to praise you and validate your opinions?

In a gaming forum? You gotta be kidding.

So why are you spending so much effort to defend the game? You seem to lack faith in MGT; surely most gamers can tell if my comments are as unreasonable and irrational as you claim and weight them accordingly?

What's your stake in MGT?

 

[Roger Calver]

I agree here, this thread is about how people feel that there is a lull in the Traveller market at the moment, i will also ask again that if you dont like something then maybe just dont comment about it.

I dont like some games but dont waste my time moaning about them, why because I have better things to do and in the end other like them - what you call wine others call vinegar - does that help ?

Rog.

 

[Roger Calver]

Guys, could you do me a favour (and others reading this thread) and take it to PM's please.

 

[tbeard1999]

Or you could just annoy everyone so much with your continuous arguments that you'll get banned from the board, and then you can fume on your own. This thread was supposed to be about a "lull" in Traveller and yet somehow you've turned it into yet another soapbox for your MGT complaints.

See, I kinda think that you're trying to get this thread locked by being contentious and pissy. I don't want that to happen, so I think I'll just decline the invitation to respond to these snippy, petty little personal attacks. (Huh...maybe I've grown...)

Nor will I respond to further pleas to stop being mean to MGT.

OTOH, if you have any substantive, specific criticisms about my posts, I'll respond to them.

EDIT: Made this post before Roger asked us to knock it off. But I've still grown...

 

[Roger Calver]

Thanks, Im actually thinking of setting up a thread just for rants until Hunter comes back online (that if I can).

 

[tbeard1999]

It's as if they announced a remake of Blade Runner written & directed by and starring Carrot Top.

Now that's a vivid metaphor...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Is all the bickering and bad mouthing of any version of Traveller adding to the Traveller universe?

You are asking this question of both fans and critics of the game, right?

The question is to all. Isn't a fan still a critic?

you enable unsrupulous folks to censor speech they disagree with.

I am only suggesting that people who truly care about the Traveller universe and not just TTU would be reasonable and censor themselves so that people who are looking at these forums to see what Traveller is all about will see lively discussions with helpful information (unlike my post right here!) and not a bunch of in house fighting which could chase away another possible new Traveller player.

The Elitist may disagree and want to keep it a good OLD boys club.

Even assuming such a motive exists and is common among MGT critics, their motives are irrelevant if their criticisms are valid, right?

I certainly would not assume that such motive is common or even that it is something done on purpose - but rather subconsciously. Hence the reason for my post. I don't think there is changing someone who would do something like that on purpose but maybe pointing it out to even one person will help them improve how they post. I do not think that criticism is not valid. There is a big difference though between criticizing a rule and giving examples of how you think it could have been done better and just saying "that is a stupid rule and the game is junk" Again I'll point out that favorable posts are also a criticism. Done in the wrong tone they also are unhelpful to the community.

Border Reiver <= Your funny :rofl:

If you feel that your posts are perfect and you have no room for improvement then my message is not aimed at you and you can ignore them.

I often look back on my own posts and say "boy, I could have said that differently". I'm sure this will be another one of those cases.

EDIT: Sorry for being off the OP topic but I'm responding to what is already in the thread and leave it to the moderators to move this elsewhere if necessary.

 

[tbeard1999]

Thanks, Im actually thinking of setting up a thread just for rants until Hunter comes back online (that if I can).

<chuckle>

Seems to me that the difficulty arises in determining when a thread crosses the Rant Threshold. For that matter, wouldn't there also be a Rant of No Return threshold (i.e., the point at which a thread cannot save itself and transition back to a non-Rant)?

But then, the Important Things are never easy...

 

[Roger Calver]

The point is now moot as I cant make one anyway.

 

[tbeard1999]

The question is to all. Isn't a fan still a critic?

Now see, here I've grown and yet you tempt me with this.

I will NOT take this succulent, flavorful, delicious bait. I won't!

I am only suggesting that people who truly care about the Traveller universe and not just TTU would be reasonable and censor themselves so that people who are looking at these forums to see what Traveller is all about will see lively discussions with helpful information (unlike my post right here!) and not a bunch of in house fighting which could chase away another possible new Traveller player.

Uh, you are talking about gamers, right?

 

[Roger Calver]

Uh, you are talking about gamers, right?

Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner

 

[CosmicGamer]

BTW, anyone know how can I search for specific posts by a poster and get the posts themselves rather than the threads? And how can I find out what the URL of a specific post is?

I don't know about the search. I too would like to know the answer to the question.

You can get the post url from the little number at the upper right of the post.

This post is #78 - if that helps you find it.

 

[Roger Calver]

I dont think that you can do that type of search.

Rog.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Uh, you are talking about gamers, right?

Maybe they can roleplay that they are nice calm rational people?