Marine Raiding Forces

[Jame]

The second of two related topics on raiding forces.

What constitutes a Marine raiding force? I'm not looking just for small forces, to respond to a minor raid, but also as part of something bigger. I'm looking more for the operational procedures, but the equipment is also important.

 

[flykiller]

the salient feature of ground operations is their isolation from outside support and any supply line. whatever they might need will have to go with them.

 

[Jame]

Okay, but what goes into the force for it to need to worry about the supplies, or better said, how does supplies correlate with anything else?

 

[kaladorn]

You may want to look into the constitution of a modern Marine MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) in the US military.

I would guess a marine expeditionary force in the traveller period would encompass a formation of brigade or regimental size and complete support apparatus for protracted independent operations.
What does this mean?

Well, IMTU, it would mean:

2500 line marines (gropos with BD)
300 APCs (including command, EW, and casaid variants)
75 grav tanks
A further 500 or so support personel (this is low due to TL, automation, and the navy providing a lot of the support for the marines)

Transports, collier/providers, ortillery support ships (equivalent to about 3 or 4 very heavy batteries, about 4 to 6 more heavy batteries, and about 8 to 12 light batteries, including things like cruise missiles, orbital laser batteries, etc), a hospital ship (or several smaller ones), fighter support (I'd guess on the order of 50-150 fighters...), and sufficient escort assets to protect the force - perhaps a CruRon and a few EscortRons, and maybe a TankRon in support.

All together an MEU should be capable of deploying a large force with all required organic support (arty, air, medical, logistical, etc) to conduct independent operations for a period of 3 to 6 months. That's a freakin lot of supply too.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Hey Jame,
Here is my take on it. The military definition of a raid-structured force is as follows:

1: The unit is structured as a limited-objective force.

1a: It would be salient to note that these objectives, while limited, often are very complicated (the Vaagso, Norway, Raid in War2, for example).

2: Missions are usually of short duration. Most often, this is less than 24 hrs.

3: To apply maximum force (and shock value) to the assault, these units are often long on teeth and short on tail. Even the C3 component might have an assault function before they can establish their headquarters.

4: Lastly, the force will usually have a mode of exit, after the objective has been secured or the mission accomplished. This exit will leave the terrain in enemy control, less the assets that were the target of the raid.

These 4-and-a-half points are the basic structure of a raid force, as opposed to a line force, whose mission is to invest terrain and hold it. By and large, you can apply these criteria to any unit from the Chindits and Merril's Marauders to 22 SAS' Iranian Embassy Rescue to an LAPD Warrant Enforcement Raid.

I will disagree with kaladorn only in that the mission of an MEU is to actually invest terrain (thus establishing local control) and hold it with massive support. The organization of the MEU however, is such that a raid-force could easily be constructed out of it.

And I like his IN/MF force set. Just remember: Marines take ground and hold it for limited duration. They are assault troops. The Army takes ground and keeps the bad guy from EVER getting it back. Different mission, different force-set.

 

[jchurchill]

Just remember: Marines take ground and hold it for limited duration. They are assault troops. The Army takes ground and keeps the bad guy from EVER getting it back. Different mission, different force-set.
================================================
The Guadalcanal theorem perhaps? IN theory this might work nicely but in proactice I would suspect that things do not work out that cleanly.

Another good source for examples would be St. Nazaire, Dieppe [how not to raid] and perhaps Arnhem.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

All together an MEU should be capable of deploying a large force with all required organic support (arty, air, medical, logistical, etc) to conduct independent operations for a period of 3 to 6 months.

I'd say 28 days tops. The Marines go in hard (*very* hard - their vocabulary doesn't include the word overkill*) and take (or destroy) the target, but in order to gain speed and firepower they sacrifice logistics.

If you need to hold the ground, you send in the Army once the Marines have done their thing.


*It usually just consists of grunts...

 

[Whipsnade]

Jame,

Google "Makin Atoll raid". Two companies from a USMC Raider battalion were landed by submarines and hit an atoll in the Mariana Islands in August of '42. The mission was meant to divert Japanese attention from Guadacanal (where the 1st Marine Division was landing), destroy Japanese infrastructure, gather intelligence, and provide a public morale boost. The operation was considered generally successful.

Also look for the "Long Patrol" made by the same organization. The entire battalion stepped out of the Henderson Field perimeter later in '42 on the 'Canal for a 31 day 'loop' through Japanese 'held' territory. Again, the idea was equal parts destruction, frightfullness, and intel gathering. They were not supposed to hold ground. This operation was far more successful.

Also, Mr. Kaladorn's and Mr. O'Flynn's remarks should be taken very seriously. Supply has always been the PRIMARY military concern. Amateurs study tactics, professional study logistics.

Raiding forces are historically skewed towards maximum 'teeth' and minimum 'tail'. The idea is perform a mission that will last for a very short period of time; i.e. the Normany paratroopers' commander telling them to give him 24 hours of ferocious combat and then they'll be relieved. A raiding froce will either be withdrawn or relieved after a short period of time. The longer they are required to stay, the more supplies they will need, and the less likely that they are 'raiders'.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

In fact Jame, here are two references that will help with the differences...

"We Were Soldiers Once, and Young" by Hal Moore, LtGen (ret.).
(a battalion sized raid that went very, VERY wrong, but was pulled out of the crapper by good troops, hard training and inspired leadership)

And

"Moving Mountains" by William Pagonis, LtGen (ret.).
(a book on the logistical effort of placing three divisions out in the Empty Quarter of Saudi Arabia, in preparation of CentCom's "Hail Mary" left hook in Gulf War 1)

And they're both really well-written.. as opposed to so very many in the "Retired General's Reminices" genre...

 

[jchurchill]

Raiding forces are historically skewed towards maximum 'teeth' and minimum 'tail'. The idea is perform a mission that will last for a very short period of time; i.e. the Normany paratroopers' commander telling them to give him 24 hours of ferocious combat and then they'll be relieved. A raiding froce will either be withdrawn or relieved after a short period of time. The longer they are required to stay, the more supplies they will need, and the less likely that they are 'raiders'.
=================================================
Again, the Arnhem air drop is a good example of the last part of LEW's point. The intent was to capture and hold a bridge for 24 hours. 48 at he very most. It was held for much longer but att he ultimate destruction or capture of 85% of the force.

 

[jchurchill]

And of course..."Blackhawk Down" provides a good example of how a raid can fall to peices in a number of very simple ways.

 

[flykiller]

And of course..."Blackhawk Down" provides a good example of how a raid can fall to peices in a number of very simple ways.

yeah, the simplest being the assumption that "the skinnies can't shoot straight".

 

[kaladorn]

I'd say 28 days tops. The Marines go in hard (*very* hard - their vocabulary doesn't include the word overkill*) and take (or destroy) the target, but in order to gain speed and firepower they sacrifice logistics.

If you need to hold the ground, you send in the Army once the Marines have done their thing.


*It usually just consists of grunts... [/QB]

Would you be interested to know how long the normal MEU is provisioned for? I just happen to have an email address for the son of a famous Sci Fi writer who just finished a hitch as XO of a Marine Amphibious Assault Ship. He'd probably be able to tell me the typical provisioning period.

PS - With Jumps plus in system time, 28 days is waaaaaay tooo short. I'm counting round trip including the time to penetrate behind the lines, not just the 'in combat' time.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Raiding forces are historically skewed towards maximum 'teeth' and minimum 'tail'. The idea is perform a mission that will last for a very short period of time; i.e. the Normany paratroopers' commander telling them to give him 24 hours of ferocious combat and then they'll be relieved. A raiding froce will either be withdrawn or relieved after a short period of time. The longer they are required to stay, the more supplies they will need, and the less likely that they are 'raiders'.

Also note that a 24 hour 'mission' (meaning the active time in combat) does not make the raiding mission a 24 hour mission - that is to say it can take a fair while to move the forces into position and extract them. Now, you can dodge some of the logistics issues by sticking your men as freezersicles, but you'll need some sort of training rotation and you'll want some awake as ship's troops at all times, esp once behind enemy lines.

Here's an interesting scenario: Assume you can thaw your troops at some rate (slow, given the number of medics you probably have and the need for supervision). You're raiding force suddenly gets flash traffic indicating you must mount a hasty attack.... how many can you get uncorked and combat ready in 24 hours? Hmmmmm.....

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> And of course..."Blackhawk Down" provides a good example of how a raid can fall to peices in a number of very simple ways.

yeah, the simplest being the assumption that "the skinnies can't shoot straight". </font>[/QUOTE]And once again, I am having a Starship Troopers flash at this point...

A lot of the local gamers are into Warhammer 40K. Few if any will have heard of Striker. What a shame...

Alan B

 

[Andrew Boulton]

PS - With Jumps plus in system time, 28 days is waaaaaay tooo short. I'm counting round trip including the time to penetrate behind the lines, not just the 'in combat' time.

I wasn't including travel time in the 28 days.

 

[TheDS]

According to canon, it is assumed that cold sleep requires a lot of time to perform, but you can choose when to perform it.

Civilians traveling Low generally get put to sleep fast, and wake up slow. Presumably this is the cheaper of the two methods. It takes about an hour before you can do anything meaningful, and getting to "normal" could take a day or two.

The Frozen Watch does the opposite: they are carefully put into sleep so that they can be awakened at short notice. You generally are supposed to wake these people up if you're taking severe pesonnel losses, and in that case, you need them on the job quickly. It takes about 5 minutes before you can do anything meaningful, and you're supposed to be "normal" in about an hour.

Where do the Marines fit into this? You're not going to drop corpsicles into a combat situation - it just isn't done. Marines are expected to go in, hit hard, and come out. So that means they are awakened enroute, which means the military can "afford" to do things the civilian way. There's plenty of time in jumpspace, and there's probably plenty of time while you're approaching the planet.

Marines that are part of ship's company, eg for ships troops and boarding parties, might be frozen via the second method, since you never know when you'll need them, and you might need more in a hurry.

 

[Jame]

What is the typical Marine unit sent on a raid, and what type or types of operation constitutes a raid?

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Jame:
What is the typical Marine unit sent on a raid, and what type or types of operation constitutes a raid?

There isn't any typical Marine unit sent on a raid, because the type of unit depends on the target of the raid.

A "Raid" is a military operation that does not involve friendly forces remaining on the target after the raid is over. It can be an air raid (bombers over Germany in WW2) or a sea raid (submarines in Scapa Flow, also WW2), or a ground raid, or any or all combined. In my opinion a raid also has to involve the planned use of force as in blowing something/someone up, to make it different from a scouting mission which is intended to gather information and attempts to avoid detection or combat. Modern raids usually involve the capture or destruction of some high-value enemy asset (a key sensor station, a high official, a headquarters). Older types of raids were just to collect/destroy resources (looting) or to terrorize the enemy populace. These types of raids were revived in WW2 as bombing raids. IMTU the Vargr are infamous for piratical raids intended to loot the targets.

A raid involving Imperial Marines is obviously a ground raid, most likely with some space/aerospace stuff involved as well. How many Marines depends on the target, defenses, etc. You could have a raid with just a fire team as the raiders or it could be an entire Marine division (perhaps as part of a "show of force" operation). The key is that it would be planned from the beginning that the troops making the raid would be extracted at the end of the raid and return home.

So tell us what the target is (type, size, defenses both on-site and in the system, how far away is the nearest friendly base, etc) and we'll tell you what Marine raiders we'd want to take it out. Of course, it's not just the guys on the ground; it's the navy ships to get there (and out of there) and provide fire support while there.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Again Jame,
Just as in a naval raid (and your thread there), the big key difference between a raid and a main force line-unit assault is this:

In a line unit assault, you take a preconstructed unit (the 1 Millionth Lift Infantry or the 200,000th Battle Squadron) and assault an enemy position (be it a star system or a machine gun nest), with the idea being to take that position away from the bad guy and keep it.

In a raid, you specifically configure your force to the target and the mission objectives. You gather as much detailed intell on your target, assign whatever specialists are required to your raid-force, train all of them up on THAT SPECIFIC TARGET, and launch your raid. You may wish to destroy the target, or keep it, or raid for information, but the raid unit's on-site time will be limited.

To illustrate this, I suggest you do a little research on the standard organization of the German 1st Fallschirmjager (Parachute) Regiment in WW2. Then compare that organization with the forces that actually went on the raid at Eben Emael in 1940.

Any help there?