Marines Without Battledress

[scouttypej]

Ah, yes the Morrow Project. Sad that did not take off. I enjoyed that game. But, in today’s environment of card games and vampire $%#@^. Good games are often over looked, much like Traveller. I only recently found a group of younger players willing to try Traveller. I have to keep it rather fast paced and low brow, but at least they are playing.

 

[Zenon]

This is a little off-topic, but the Morrow Project is actually still in print and available (along with all of the old modules). The license was purchased from Timeline Ltd by Abacus Dimensions. You can go here and browse through the online catalog:

http://www.abacusdimensions.com/mp.htm

I was able to pick up a whole bunch of stuff I lost years ago (I always liked the Morrow Project).

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[helbent4]

You know, old RPG games never die, they just go onto the web. I'm on a "The Morrow Project" mailing list that's active, and Abacus is getting ready to issue their own all-new TMP Project File (adventure). Yay!

It's not surprising that TMP and Traveller had such a crossover in players. To a certain extent that's why TNE never grabbed me; I'd already been exposed to TMP, and so I'd seen the post-apocalypse genre done much better for a lot longer.

In fact, the PBEM Morrow Project game where the ex-marine players took me under thier collective wing (sending me private posts like "how to be a good Marine Officer") was, no kidding, a Traveller-TMP crossover.

The PD liked Traveller, so incorporated Imperials and Solomani into his Project via time travel. A Solomani strike team used an Ancient artifact to travel back into time. They believed that by travelling back to pre-starflight Terra and altering their own history they could prevent the eventual collapse of the Second Imperium, rise of the Third Imperium, and subsequently disasterous Solimani Rim War. An Imperial Task Force pursued them in order to stop them. But, they all came back to the Morrow Project timeline with it's post-WWIII destroyed Earth. It was eventually discovered that the Hivers (a rogue faction) used their psychohistoical talents to engineer the complete collapse of Terran civilisation in order to prevent the rise of the future Imperiums.

In the end, the campaign climax was a joint attack conducted between the Morrow Project, their local allies, their Imperial allies (Marines in BDA, see? Brought this home to the topic!) against a secret Hiver base in Oregon.

 

[simontmn]

Originally posted by Vargas:
It was my impression that the US has a Marine Corps while the UK and Imperium have Royal/Imperial Marines (no 'Corps' added).

The British Royal Marines are a branch of the Royal Navy, btw. The US system of having the USMC a 4th arm of the military along with Navy, Army & Air Force seems to be fairly unusual.

For the Imperium it makes sense to emphasise Marines & Navy as the primary combat arms, I would think that Imperial Army wouldn't have much to do, planetary defense forces seem better organised at the local planet level. YMMV

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Tony Stroppa:
In reference to an earlier post, there are several present-day Marine Corps. The Royal Marine Corps is formally known as "3 Commando Brigade". The Royal Netherlands Marine Corps is another Brigade-sized Unit and one of the world's oldest military units, being formed in 1665.

IMTU, there are the Imperial Marine Corps (there is not just the one, but many many Corps of Imperial Marines). They are the "real deal": equipped to TL15. Most, but not all, will be trained with using Battledress and FGMP-14/15, but often equipped with Combat Armour and Gauss Rifles as circumsytances dictate. They have organic TRansport, Cavalry, Artillery and Support elements, although these are usually a lot lower in proportion than comparable-sized Imperial Army units (if not omitted altogether). They include deicated recce and special operations units, and the term for an individual company is a "Commando" (as in, "2 Commando"/"2 Cdo".).

In the Imperium, Colonial Naval Infantry (organised and equipped by individual world and subsector navies) are equipped, trained and organised more or less like Imperial Marines as much as possible. But they are almost alwys like pure infantry, and rarely incorporate organic transport, Cavalry or Artillery elements. Colonial Naval Infantry are mostly used as ship's troops, and while usually considered elite forces (at least by the systems or subsectors in question) are almost never operationally integrated with Imperial Marines directly or indirectly. The Marines always have been, and always will be, their own force.

Dang, this turned into a IMTU post! Maybe I should cross-post to that category?

Actually 3 Commando Brigade is a mixed Marine-Army formation which was formed in WW2 as the 3rd Special Service Brigade (there were 4). 1st, 2nd and 4th SS Brigades saw service in Europe and North Africa, while 3 SS Bde was in the East, and so escaped the cuts when they came.

During WW2 there were still non-commando RM units, but after the war it was decided to disband all the non-commando RMs and army commando battalions. The RM reverted to a strength of 5 battalions:

40 Commando
41 Commando
42 Commando
43 Commando
45 Commando

plus a few independent subunits (539 Raiding Squadron, Special Boat Service Regiment etc.)

40, 42 and 45 were subborned to 3 Cdo Bde, while 41 was an independent commando battalion, finally disbanded in the 80's (ISTR), while 43 went in the 68 contraction.

The army still operates a number of non-infantry commando units, including 29 Commando Regiment, RA, 59 Commando Squadron, RE and the Commando Logistic Regiment (plus 131 Independent Commando Squadron, RE(V) etc.).

For the lineage etc. try here:

http://regiments.org/milhist/uk/specfor/RM.htm

Bryn

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Tony Stroppa:
In reference to an earlier post, there are several present-day Marine Corps. The Royal Marine Corps is formally known as "3 Commando Brigade". The Royal Netherlands Marine Corps is another Brigade-sized Unit and one of the world's oldest military units, being formed in 1665.

IMTU, there are the Imperial Marine Corps (there is not just the one, but many many Corps of Imperial Marines). They are the "real deal": equipped to TL15. Most, but not all, will be trained with using Battledress and FGMP-14/15, but often equipped with Combat Armour and Gauss Rifles as circumsytances dictate. They have organic TRansport, Cavalry, Artillery and Support elements, although these are usually a lot lower in proportion than comparable-sized Imperial Army units (if not omitted altogether). They include deicated recce and special operations units, and the term for an individual company is a "Commando" (as in, "2 Commando"/"2 Cdo".).

In the Imperium, Colonial Naval Infantry (organised and equipped by individual world and subsector navies) are equipped, trained and organised more or less like Imperial Marines as much as possible. But they are almost alwys like pure infantry, and rarely incorporate organic transport, Cavalry or Artillery elements. Colonial Naval Infantry are mostly used as ship's troops, and while usually considered elite forces (at least by the systems or subsectors in question) are almost never operationally integrated with Imperial Marines directly or indirectly. The Marines always have been, and always will be, their own force.

Dang, this turned into a IMTU post! Maybe I should cross-post to that category?

According to Book 4, the Imperial Marines only have 3 options: Infantry, Support or Commando. They don't have organic Armour or Artillery assets.

The countermix in Invasion Earth gives 1 Marine Division (99th Provisional) and 5 Regiments (2666th, 4217th, 4545th 4940th and 6701st), while the Imperial and Colonial Armies include 2 Field Armies, 26 Corps, 18 Divisions and 8 Brigades. FFW has 8 Marine Regiments in the counter mix.

The value of a regiment per subsector seems about right.

FWIW, Book 4 gives the organisation of a Marine Company (if you look hard enough)

Squad (9 men, 2x 4 fireteams under a Lance Sergeant)
Section (19 men, 2x squads and a Sergeant)
Platoon (41 men, 2x sections, a Lieutenant, Gunnery Sergeant and assumidly signaller)
Company (127 men, 3 platoons, plus Captain, Lieutenant (XO), Leading Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant (CQMS))

A very lean organisation more like a Commando/ Ranger company than an Infantry Company.

Bryn

 

[bodai]

The USMC is a dept of the navy,and although an effective 4th combat arm except for some specialized equipment(LCAC,LAV-25,AAVP7A1,f-18) they receive out of date equipment from the army.During the first gulf war the marines were still using M60 tanks while the army was using M1s,and still might be(ok marines let me know if they gave u M1s yet).My friend was in comm and complained the army had PRC-90s(?)and they had 75s(?).I respect the marines and admire their shooting skills,they have also been described as shock troops,up until the current conflict they were only really expected to take and hold an area like 25 miles from the beach.My friends personal experience was with the M16A2 and the M203 gren launcher,the drill instructor would say things like"the army says effective use of the M203 goes out to 300m,we in the marines like to hit things at 500 m.."or "the army considers you qualified on the m16 if you can hit a target at250m we in the marines expect you to hit objects at 400m etc."My friend became expert qualified after proving he hit a life size target at 700m/yds with the M16A2.The USMC is the only military service that returns part of its budget to the US treasury every year,a major point of pride.
I know this has little to do with traveller except as background but a previous comment stated the rest of the world suborned the marines to the navy,well I'm sorry to say,we do too.
I see a turning point in the use of marines during the imperiums,probably during the nth stellar wars with the Vilani,where the government decided to use the best equipment as a force multiplier for the marines(their elan and political reliability probably helped) in their planetary assaults.Additionally,higher tech is also a force multiplier along with the ability for the average sodier to carry more equipment,so battledress is predominent with the marines but combat armor dominates the army,where Heavy weapons armor and artillery make up for the difference in forces.Marines land in a hot zone prepare a beachhead for the army to land in major invasions.Battledress equipped marines jump first,of course.Also marines are used as a fast reaction force able to land any where and with airsupport have an abiltiy to force imperial will/law on most smaller under developed planets.Rmemeber in the Imperium most worlds are tech 11- and not highly populated.90%of the imperiums population is on high pop worlds,so a mean group of jarheads should be able to cow most worlds especially with a ship up above providing support fire.Combined arms kicks butt.
In my campaign I had a commando unit (the dentists....tooth pullers?) that the Imperium used to take out nuclear/WMD sites on member worlds that were deemed tooo dangerous to keep them(xenophobes,religious zealots,evil dictators,prior to an intervention.Remember the imperial rules of war limit nukes to imperial forces but most tech5+ cultures can build nukes,so I speculated a specialist unit would be needed to remove these threats before the marines landed,but after the spys.Each member of the unit received a gold anodized tooth puller,missions were denoted on vehicles and bds with molars etc.

 

[helbent4]

"According to Book 4, the Imperial Marines only have 3 options: Infantry, Support or Commando. They don't have organic Armour or Artillery assets."

BMonnery,

I thought this, unil someone else brought up Book 4 references to Marine Cav and Arty. If you go back and read Book 4 pg. 3, a character can only enlist in Marine Infantry and Support. However as per Pg. 5 under Cross Training, "...the only combat arm that a marine may initially enter is infantry, it is possible to transfer into cavalry or artillery..."

As per Reenlistment on pg. 9, Marines who are cross-trained in arty or cav and intend to re-up in those arms of service get a +1 bonus. Below that, under Changing Arms of Service, enlisted Marines can only re-up for a Term in their original service, except for cross training or commando school. Officers have the option of changing to any arm of service save Commando, unless they went to commando school.

So, in the original CT universe, there are Marine cav and arty, although they obviously are propotionally uncommon, even compared to Marine Commandos.

Looking at the prevalence of BD skill in book 4, it's actually somewhat hard to get, requiring at least a homeworld TL of 12+. Therefore, not all, or maybe even most Marines have the skill to go around in BDA on a regular basis. Oddly enough, Marines can get BDA skill easier through book 1 than book 4, as they could all get vacc suit skill, which in Book 1 was suitable for BDA.

The Imperial Navy and Imperial Marines are certainly the striking fist of the Imperium, suitable for a government that's oriented primarily to ruling the space between the stars.

As to why they bother having an Imperial Army in addition to a Colonial army? Colonial Army forces are a good reserve force to be mobilised in times of war. But you still need a standing army to garrison wherever and whenever needed in times of peace (unlike the world-specific Colonials), and engage in battles of attrition in tims of war (unlike Marines).

 

[tanstaafl2300]

I might say that his lack of promotion and alien knowledge might have been because of an instructor/advisor position to a backwater alien world either as an advisor to the alien military or as a "Imperial" helping hands program. This long term assignment ment that his already low social skills and position got him passed over for more lucrative assignments or perhaps it was his choice to stay (fell in love/bought land/liked the job,attempting to hide from the war etc...).

Tanstaafl2300

 

[Vargas]

There was an issue of print JTAS (I want to say #15 for some reason) that detailed the TOE for Imperial Marines; in included artillary and, I think, tanks. Unfortunately currently seperated from my collection. . .

 

[TKalbfus]

What dirty mind thought up this thread? Marines without Battledress Indeed! Do you mean they go into battle naked?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Tom. -read- the thread maybe?

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
What dirty mind thought up this thread? Marines without Battledress Indeed! Do you mean they go into battle naked?

They clothe themselves in unfinished ringworlds.

 

[trader jim]

does everthing have to be canon???, thats like saying..."You cant take that Hill, its not Canon"

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Rahnd:
Wonder if it was a game ballance issue that they didnt automaticaly give marines the battledress feat in t20 system.

No. Certain playtesters pointed out that "All marines have Battledress" is a Loren-ism. MWM, having had the ability at several points, and Frank Chadwick as well, chose to NOT change the system to match Loren's article. Nor did the gent who did Regency Sourcebook.

Besides, as I pointed out, there are deplyed combattant Imperial Marines in several places that are not in battledress. Amongst the most obvious is AHL, where, in fact, most of the marine troops are in combat armor, not battledress. (this makes sense from a logistical standpoint; a BD equipped force costs, at best, only 5 times more than combat armored forces, for similar protection & vaccum capability. Combat armor is also somewhat smaller to store (About 1/2 the volume), and can have most fo the options that BD can have.

Hunter decided to use a compromise: make it possible for the "All marines are BD capable", but not a fixed absolute that in T20 canon all marines wear the stuff.

Had nothing much to do with play ballance. Everything to do with "Rules Mechanics are a form of Canon, Too."

 

[trader jim]

Marines without Battle Dress...Shudder, Shudder. I just felt a cold chill!!!!!

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by trader jim:
Marines without Battle Dress...

Yeah...I believe they are called FODDER.

-MADDog

 

[trader jim]

Woof Woof Puppy!!!...I hear you cant hit the broad side of a hove too trader with a Sand Caster!!!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Certain playtesters pointed out that "All marines have Battledress" is a Loren-ism.

Since Loren was writing a source article for CT at the time, it was considerably more than that.

MWM, having had the ability at several points, and Frank Chadwick as well, chose to NOT change the system to match Loren's article. Nor did the gent who did Regency Sourcebook.

This merely meant that a canon conflict existed. One source said that all Imperial Marines were BD capable while the character generation system was capable of generating marines without battledress skill. This meant that Loren could have chosen to go with either side of the issue when he gave Doug instructions for writing GF. At the time I thought he should have chosen to go with the character generation system. I've since changed my mind and is now of the opinion that an article that dealt specifically with the Imperial marines has more weight than a character generation system that is supposed to generate generic human marines for every human marine force in Charted Space. But whichever choice you and I or anyone else may think was the best, Loren was the one who was authorized to make it.

Besides, as I pointed out, there are deployed combattant Imperial Marines in several places that are not in battledress. Amongst the most obvious is AHL, where, in fact, most of the marine troops are in combat armor, not battledress.

But that doesn't say that they're not capable of wearing them. AFAIK the only canonical source for that is the various character generation systems and The Kinunir.

Hunter decided to use a compromise: make it possible for the "All marines are BD capable", but not a fixed absolute that in T20 canon all marines wear the stuff.

But isn't that precisely the change? From the "Not all marines are BD capable" to "All marines are BD capable (but that doesn't mean they invariably wear it)"?


Hans

 

[jrients]

IMTU the default equipment for my marines is mesh, revolver and cutlass, following the Book 3 encounter tables. The heavy weapons guy usually has a shotgun or laser rifle.

I run a detached scout & free trader sort of game. Players seem to arm themselves to the teeth because they assume that's what the NPCs are doing. By setting the bar so low, I hope to keep "gun creep" down.