Marines Without Battledress
- Thread starter helbent4
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Heh. The 'spandex jumpsuit' and acrobatics model is more Japanese. The American model generally doesn't involve armor (or if armor is present, it's useless) and typically involves pathetic levels of accuracy when the bad guys are shooting at the good guys.
Unless the point of the movie is a bunch of people getting slaughtered, of course.
Unless the point of the movie is a bunch of people getting slaughtered, of course.
Actually, I should have said:
All marines have the opportuinity to learn it, but the system mechanics support marines without training in it. It is available in such a manner in T20 that all marines have it available, but it is not a hard-line requirement that they take that feat.
Now, seeing as how I've never READ Loren's article, having never had access to it, it never became part of my canon consciousness until GT forced all marines to spend points upon it. But then GT is only canon for GT, according to the origninal announcement by MWM upon awarding the contract.
T20 is only canon for the setting materials, not the rules mechanics...
Tom Schoene
SOC-12
I'd really like to see that press release and get Marc's exact words. The SJ games position, which has not been contestedf by Miller AFAIK, is this:
"Again, the [GT] alternate history proceeds from one change: the assassination of Emperor Strephon. All events which happened prior to that break point remain unchanged."
I see. Well, Hunter has an extra out in that he describes Imperial marines of Milieu 1000 whereas Loren's article concerns Imperial marines of the Classic Era. So there's really no conflict here.
Yeah, but GT doesn't really come into it. Loren's article is canon for CT whether you accept GT as canon or not. Of course, it contradicts other CT canon, but we've been over that already.
Hans
IMTU (which is mid-TL12), the Solar Triumvirate Marine Corps uses Cloth armor and the ACR (Gauss for Commando Forces) as their standard-issue gear; the Battledress is still a TL ahead and the combat armor is expensive and bulky, reserved only to the Drop Troop Brigade elite shock-troops (an Army special forces unit IMTU) and to similr ultra-heavy hitters.
Marines are a combined force IMTU, with its own organic infantry, light armor, light field artilery and aerospace and interstellar forces. If you want a small operation under time pressure, and you want it to be done well, you send in the Marines. If you want an all-out war, and time is on your side, you call the Army as well.
Marines are a combined force IMTU, with its own organic infantry, light armor, light field artilery and aerospace and interstellar forces. If you want a small operation under time pressure, and you want it to be done well, you send in the Marines. If you want an all-out war, and time is on your side, you call the Army as well.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually if you read the Battledress skill you will find that the Vacc Suit skill works with Battledress. (You just can't use the Plasma/Fusion Guns.) If the question is did the character get either Vacc Suit or Battledress, then it is much easier than originally thought. SInce the bulk of Marines use Gauss Rifles, (hence the Combat Rifleman skill as part of basic training not High Energy Weapons) with a few FGMPs/PGMPs mixed in as support weapons then that definition of wearing battledress means the majority of Marines do have skill with Battledress. Now in T20 since you get to pick your feats they can all have Battledress. (And I would recommend it to anyone making up a character unless they are a pilot, (Grav or Fighter/Assault Boat) or Artillery. Demolitions will undoubtably have Battledress because they train to dismantle bombs as well as place them. (And when you are dismantling bombs you wear the biggest, badest, toughest set of armor you can get your hands on. Only in Hollywood do you wear shirt sleeves and argue about the Red wire or the BLue Wire.
(Matter of fact in the real world you tend to go for controlled detonation instead of trying to disarm or even move the device.
)
Depends upon ruleset, Bhoins.
Several CT sources have marines without battledress skills. Not limited to, but including: Adv 1, Sup13 (Veterans), AHL (which includes Supp 5).
MT provides us with marine vehicle units, not explicitly, but by providing the Tredipa Marine Grav Tank. I seriously doubt canon-cockers and flit-bits (GravArmor) wear, or are even trained in, BD. Striker II says they aren't in BD...
Bk4 provides for CES equipped marine units.
MT makes no major changes to the CG based upon Bk4. MT Marine Infantry has NO provision for battledress skill unless assigned to ships' troops. Commando's provide the BD skill fairly infrequently, as well, but get lots more ship's troops time.
Part of the problem is that there are really some very different ideas of what marines are:
The Navalized Ground Troops Model: troops trained and equipped for rapid deployment from troop transports; may or may not double as shipboard security. (Currently the US model.)
The Beachhead Maker Model: Marines are trained for specialized landings and establishing beachheads to bring in army troops to a secured location. (Used to be the US model)
The Ship's Security Model: Marines provide shipboard and portside security. (Always an additional duty for US Marines.)
The Specialized Boarding Forces Model: The "Enterprise" model, as well as the SFB model. Usually coupled with Ship's Security Model, but not always so tied in fiction; the skillsets overlap highly.
The Iron Fist of the Emperor Model: The best armed and armored troops of the imperium. Strongly similar to the Warhammer 40K model.
Canon clearly shows that Army units are raised by worlds; the Marines are shown to be the standard "Imperial" troop type... and if it is, in fact, the "Standing Army of the Imperium". Rules-canon from 4 editions makes it clear that the training is that of a hybrid standing army and ship's security.
Rules canon both pre- and post- article. There is absolutely no sense in putting marine armor units through battledress training, nor even drop capsule training; Likewise, self-propelled internally crewed artillery also have no real need of Battledress training.
From all I've heard, Loren's article also fails to mention marine armor and arty. Which clearly exist, as the trepida is canonical.
For T20, it was a campaign style issue; it should be seen that way. If you believe all marines are BD troopies, by all means, require all marines to take BD training feat at level 1. If you believe, as do I, that only commandos and elite units routinely wear the MCr2-5 each suits, by all means, allow your players to pick other ones. That was the solution I argued for. One that doesn't FORCE Loren's debatable article upon those who've never seen it, or chose to ignore it.
as for GT: loads of subtle, often thought inconsequential, codifications of what were, prior to GT, inferences... and many of these debated on the TML.... GT has changed a lot, simply by defining it as one specific way. Small changes in BTC are clear contradictions to TTA. Not to mention packages defining "Typical" people, and having those packages be for 100 point characters only, and ones that a normal, even with 40 points in additional disads, can't take.... (Not the only GURPS book to have this problem... but definitely, a problem... since a Normal is 25 points by definition...)
Loren's article covers the CT timeframe? Why then was it ignored for MT, even contradicted by the rules? Is MT a change?
I see room in the 3I for a mixed arms IMC... Common infantry in CES's, vacc suits if needed. (all marines get VaccSuit-0 in MT. Note vacc suit, not BD) They are the second wave, coming down in Astrins, right behind the drop troops in their BD and the Grav-Cav in their trepidas. The Marine Arty would have other vehicles... and be few and far betweeen. Support guys generally don't go down, and if they do, go down as part of the unti to which they are assigned.
Aboard ship, the small core of BD tropps are the heavy striker elements for boarding actions... lock on to the outside of a shuttle, or use a gravitic thruster pack, and sneak in under the radar... then make for the engineering hatch, and blow it open. Probably to be met by similarly equipped enemy troops...
I like the model of boarding combat and marines used by the Vorkosiverse, and by McCaffrey's Sassinak... but I don't think that the IM's are solely that.
Several CT sources have marines without battledress skills. Not limited to, but including: Adv 1, Sup13 (Veterans), AHL (which includes Supp 5).
MT provides us with marine vehicle units, not explicitly, but by providing the Tredipa Marine Grav Tank. I seriously doubt canon-cockers and flit-bits (GravArmor) wear, or are even trained in, BD. Striker II says they aren't in BD...
Bk4 provides for CES equipped marine units.
MT makes no major changes to the CG based upon Bk4. MT Marine Infantry has NO provision for battledress skill unless assigned to ships' troops. Commando's provide the BD skill fairly infrequently, as well, but get lots more ship's troops time.
Part of the problem is that there are really some very different ideas of what marines are:
The Navalized Ground Troops Model: troops trained and equipped for rapid deployment from troop transports; may or may not double as shipboard security. (Currently the US model.)
The Beachhead Maker Model: Marines are trained for specialized landings and establishing beachheads to bring in army troops to a secured location. (Used to be the US model)
The Ship's Security Model: Marines provide shipboard and portside security. (Always an additional duty for US Marines.)
The Specialized Boarding Forces Model: The "Enterprise" model, as well as the SFB model. Usually coupled with Ship's Security Model, but not always so tied in fiction; the skillsets overlap highly.
The Iron Fist of the Emperor Model: The best armed and armored troops of the imperium. Strongly similar to the Warhammer 40K model.
Canon clearly shows that Army units are raised by worlds; the Marines are shown to be the standard "Imperial" troop type... and if it is, in fact, the "Standing Army of the Imperium". Rules-canon from 4 editions makes it clear that the training is that of a hybrid standing army and ship's security.
Rules canon both pre- and post- article. There is absolutely no sense in putting marine armor units through battledress training, nor even drop capsule training; Likewise, self-propelled internally crewed artillery also have no real need of Battledress training.
From all I've heard, Loren's article also fails to mention marine armor and arty. Which clearly exist, as the trepida is canonical.
For T20, it was a campaign style issue; it should be seen that way. If you believe all marines are BD troopies, by all means, require all marines to take BD training feat at level 1. If you believe, as do I, that only commandos and elite units routinely wear the MCr2-5 each suits, by all means, allow your players to pick other ones. That was the solution I argued for. One that doesn't FORCE Loren's debatable article upon those who've never seen it, or chose to ignore it.
as for GT: loads of subtle, often thought inconsequential, codifications of what were, prior to GT, inferences... and many of these debated on the TML.... GT has changed a lot, simply by defining it as one specific way. Small changes in BTC are clear contradictions to TTA. Not to mention packages defining "Typical" people, and having those packages be for 100 point characters only, and ones that a normal, even with 40 points in additional disads, can't take.... (Not the only GURPS book to have this problem... but definitely, a problem... since a Normal is 25 points by definition...)
Loren's article covers the CT timeframe? Why then was it ignored for MT, even contradicted by the rules? Is MT a change?
I see room in the 3I for a mixed arms IMC... Common infantry in CES's, vacc suits if needed. (all marines get VaccSuit-0 in MT. Note vacc suit, not BD) They are the second wave, coming down in Astrins, right behind the drop troops in their BD and the Grav-Cav in their trepidas. The Marine Arty would have other vehicles... and be few and far betweeen. Support guys generally don't go down, and if they do, go down as part of the unti to which they are assigned.
Aboard ship, the small core of BD tropps are the heavy striker elements for boarding actions... lock on to the outside of a shuttle, or use a gravitic thruster pack, and sneak in under the radar... then make for the engineering hatch, and blow it open. Probably to be met by similarly equipped enemy troops...
I like the model of boarding combat and marines used by the Vorkosiverse, and by McCaffrey's Sassinak... but I don't think that the IM's are solely that.
The question that sums up my view on this issue is "who maintains the battledress".
As a highly complex piece of feild kit I would expect a mechanic per 2 or 3 units of BD.
If these mechanics are also Marines (highly probable) we end up with the recursive problem that the only people in battledress are the mechanics for the battledress.
As a highly complex piece of feild kit I would expect a mechanic per 2 or 3 units of BD.
If these mechanics are also Marines (highly probable) we end up with the recursive problem that the only people in battledress are the mechanics for the battledress.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I agree that it is rules dependent. But if you look at the rules for the battledress skill in Book 4, and/or the Vacc Suit skill in Book 1 you will find that all you need to operate Battledress in CT is either Vacc Suit or Battledress. The difference is that Battledress skill itself is required for PGMP-13 and FGMP-14 use and Battledress skill can be used in place of Zero G combat in some situations. Otherwise they are pretty much interchangeable. Checking the MT Players Manual the distinction, in MT between the Battledress Skill and Vacc Suit Skill is the same as CT. What T4, TNE and GT do with the skill? I don't know. I have heard GT requires Marines to have Battledress skill. T4 and TNE are both set in timeframes where Battledress may or may not be in use at all. (Virally infected battledress sounds like a very nasty idea.
)
You are correct that Marines in Artillery units and Armored Vehicle Crews are unlikely to be in Battledress. I agree with your assessment, though it matters how theyu got into those branches. In CT the only way a Marine (Well a LBB4 Marine) could get into either Armor or Arty was to start as a MArine and cross train into those then reenlist into those branches of the Marines. (Which is actually about as tough as going Commando with the tables.) Making those specialities tougher to get into I would say the bulk of Marines are Infantry. While there are tanks and Artillery most Marine formations would be light infantry forces. Makes sense since they are used as shipboard troops, for boarding actions, and for initial assaults on planets and high orbitals, leaving the Army to follow on and consolidate.
I didn't say all marines, in CT-MT or T20 wore battledress or even wore it on a regular basis, just that the majority would be capable of it.
IMTU I tend to use Marines like Heinlein's Starship Troopers (The book not the movie.) for Planetside operations and combat armor for shipboard use, everyday wear. (Especially in T20 where battledress is so big.) There are exceptions. Commandos tend to wear Combat Armor, when they are not trying to blend into the local population, etc. Initial assaults and Breaching actions on shipboard tend to be spearheaded by Battledress. ETC.
IMTU Marines are not dumb. They use the tools that are available to maximize results and minimize their own losses. And the Imperial Marines, at least IMHO, have very deep pockets at the high end of the tech spectrum. They will not only use the right tool for the job but they are very likely to actually have the right tools.
The following is from MTU and in no way represents more than my opinion of canon.
Marines are basically a Light Infantry Force, there are some Armor and Artillery capability but usually that is left for the Army. Marines specialize in Protected forces operations, which includes EVA, boarding actions and Orbital Facilities combat. They are therefore also particularily skilled in MOUT (Movement Over Urban Terrain) operations. Marines, like the Navy have Fighter Squadrons. These are generally full on Space based fighters, primarily to protect their own landing and/or boarding craft and to provide CAS (Close Air Support) on the ground. Marine Pinnaces/Cutters are also designed to fill the CAS role, in a more limited manner. In the CAS role Marine Fighter craft perform admirably as Armor and Artillery so the lack of Tanks and/or Artillery in Standard Marine Formations is not seen as a serious drawback. Though Marines do have specialized units with more traditional Armor and Artillery. Further the Navy can generally be expected to provide Artillery support in the form of Naval (Off planet bombardment) Gunfire, Missile Strikes and Thor Shots.
For planetary invasion situations, The Marines are generally the first wave. Once the High Orbitals are controlled, and Landing Zones are secured, the Marines generally hand off the situation to the Army. Though the Marines can do the job if ordered to do so and occasionally do end up doing that job. (Hence the specialized Artillery and Armor units.)
For Planetary Raids, Commando missions, etc, the Marines deploy aboard specialized craft, (The "Failed" Kinunir class being one example.) using drop pods, deploy from orbit strike their objective and are recovered in specialized pinnaces/cutters dubbed recovery boats which are armored and designed to land in a hot LZ at high speed so the Marines can get in and back out, usually before the local government, corporation, terrorist group or other entity can generally mobilize and react. (Which is the real reason the Kinunir Class and the follow on Rodger Young Class were developed.)
Marines are the ultimate Infantrymen. They are highly trained with the primary purpose of killing people and breaking things. While they can provide security, give you directions at the local starport, perform disaster relief, protect the Naval boarding party coming aboard to do customs and safety inspections and even perform those inspections themselves all Marines are still trained, and trained very well in their primary purpose. Marines are trained as Infantrymen first and all Marines are Infantrymen at their core.
I hope that little bit on Marines helps other GMs and even PCs get a feel for how Imperial Marines, IMHO, should be viewed.
If you are going to use Marines extensively in your Traveller Universe I do recommend reading Heinlein's Starship Troopers and David Webber's Honor Harrington series. These are the guys you don't want kicking in your door. These are the guys that Mercenary Units don't want to tangle with.
When the FBI's HRT was formed the Agents were trained with the SEALs. One of the reported comments that the Agents made was where do you carry the handcuffs on your gear? The response is that you don't need handcuffs when you put 2-3 9mm bullets through the targets brainpan. That is the basic difference between a SWAT team/police unit that kicks in your door and a Military force that does the same job.
You are correct that Marines in Artillery units and Armored Vehicle Crews are unlikely to be in Battledress. I agree with your assessment, though it matters how theyu got into those branches. In CT the only way a Marine (Well a LBB4 Marine) could get into either Armor or Arty was to start as a MArine and cross train into those then reenlist into those branches of the Marines. (Which is actually about as tough as going Commando with the tables.) Making those specialities tougher to get into I would say the bulk of Marines are Infantry. While there are tanks and Artillery most Marine formations would be light infantry forces. Makes sense since they are used as shipboard troops, for boarding actions, and for initial assaults on planets and high orbitals, leaving the Army to follow on and consolidate.
I didn't say all marines, in CT-MT or T20 wore battledress or even wore it on a regular basis, just that the majority would be capable of it.
IMTU I tend to use Marines like Heinlein's Starship Troopers (The book not the movie.) for Planetside operations and combat armor for shipboard use, everyday wear. (Especially in T20 where battledress is so big.) There are exceptions. Commandos tend to wear Combat Armor, when they are not trying to blend into the local population, etc. Initial assaults and Breaching actions on shipboard tend to be spearheaded by Battledress. ETC.
IMTU Marines are not dumb. They use the tools that are available to maximize results and minimize their own losses. And the Imperial Marines, at least IMHO, have very deep pockets at the high end of the tech spectrum. They will not only use the right tool for the job but they are very likely to actually have the right tools.
The following is from MTU and in no way represents more than my opinion of canon.
Marines are basically a Light Infantry Force, there are some Armor and Artillery capability but usually that is left for the Army. Marines specialize in Protected forces operations, which includes EVA, boarding actions and Orbital Facilities combat. They are therefore also particularily skilled in MOUT (Movement Over Urban Terrain) operations. Marines, like the Navy have Fighter Squadrons. These are generally full on Space based fighters, primarily to protect their own landing and/or boarding craft and to provide CAS (Close Air Support) on the ground. Marine Pinnaces/Cutters are also designed to fill the CAS role, in a more limited manner. In the CAS role Marine Fighter craft perform admirably as Armor and Artillery so the lack of Tanks and/or Artillery in Standard Marine Formations is not seen as a serious drawback. Though Marines do have specialized units with more traditional Armor and Artillery. Further the Navy can generally be expected to provide Artillery support in the form of Naval (Off planet bombardment) Gunfire, Missile Strikes and Thor Shots.
For planetary invasion situations, The Marines are generally the first wave. Once the High Orbitals are controlled, and Landing Zones are secured, the Marines generally hand off the situation to the Army. Though the Marines can do the job if ordered to do so and occasionally do end up doing that job. (Hence the specialized Artillery and Armor units.)
For Planetary Raids, Commando missions, etc, the Marines deploy aboard specialized craft, (The "Failed" Kinunir class being one example.) using drop pods, deploy from orbit strike their objective and are recovered in specialized pinnaces/cutters dubbed recovery boats which are armored and designed to land in a hot LZ at high speed so the Marines can get in and back out, usually before the local government, corporation, terrorist group or other entity can generally mobilize and react. (Which is the real reason the Kinunir Class and the follow on Rodger Young Class were developed.)
Marines are the ultimate Infantrymen. They are highly trained with the primary purpose of killing people and breaking things. While they can provide security, give you directions at the local starport, perform disaster relief, protect the Naval boarding party coming aboard to do customs and safety inspections and even perform those inspections themselves all Marines are still trained, and trained very well in their primary purpose. Marines are trained as Infantrymen first and all Marines are Infantrymen at their core.
I hope that little bit on Marines helps other GMs and even PCs get a feel for how Imperial Marines, IMHO, should be viewed.
If you are going to use Marines extensively in your Traveller Universe I do recommend reading Heinlein's Starship Troopers and David Webber's Honor Harrington series. These are the guys you don't want kicking in your door. These are the guys that Mercenary Units don't want to tangle with.
When the FBI's HRT was formed the Agents were trained with the SEALs. One of the reported comments that the Agents made was where do you carry the handcuffs on your gear? The response is that you don't need handcuffs when you put 2-3 9mm bullets through the targets brainpan. That is the basic difference between a SWAT team/police unit that kicks in your door and a Military force that does the same job.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
The answer is obvious, well should be to anyone that has served in the Army or Marines in other than a light infantry unit, (Well except for pilots.
) the individual Marines maintain their set of Battledress. There will be repairs that will require the use of a specialist but general preventive maintenance, normal service, and minor repairs will be carried out by the person that wears the suit.
Who does the primary maintenance on a tank or APC? The crew of that tank/APC. Who maintains the rifle that an Infantryman carries? The Infantryman that rifle is assigned to. The next level of maintenance is carried out by organic assets in the unit. That doesn't mean that the Company Armorer isn't also an Infantryman. Or that the Platoon Medic is the only person with medic skill, etc.
Above that level of maintenance the suit will generally have to be downchecked (Or whatever you want to call it) replaced and sent to a higher echelon for maintenance. (Generally at BN level, possibly at Brigade level before serious repairs are sent off to Depot level maintenance.)
Who does the primary maintenance on a tank or APC? The crew of that tank/APC. Who maintains the rifle that an Infantryman carries? The Infantryman that rifle is assigned to. The next level of maintenance is carried out by organic assets in the unit. That doesn't mean that the Company Armorer isn't also an Infantryman. Or that the Platoon Medic is the only person with medic skill, etc.
Above that level of maintenance the suit will generally have to be downchecked (Or whatever you want to call it) replaced and sent to a higher echelon for maintenance. (Generally at BN level, possibly at Brigade level before serious repairs are sent off to Depot level maintenance.)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
P
Prospero
Guest
Hey.
Always seemed to me that all marines would have battle dress for two reasons: 1.for protected force ops and 2. efficiency. A squad of BD marines packs a lot of fire power into a small place...given the costs of transporting large number of people around the star...
Always seemed to me that all marines would have battle dress for two reasons: 1.for protected force ops and 2. efficiency. A squad of BD marines packs a lot of fire power into a small place...given the costs of transporting large number of people around the star...
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Speaking of armorers, give a read of Weber's and Ringo's "March" series (March Upcountry, March To The Sea, March To The Stars). The series contain one of the best armorer characters ever.
Bhoins: Your assertions that the marines are trained very well is not borne out by any non-GT CG rulesets. They are comparably trained to Army personell, with very different emphasis.
Cultass, rather than Rifle.
Vacc Suit 0.
Sounds like, to me, the basic CG marines are very much ship's security.
Yes, they get access to rifle. They even (under MT) get access to Battledress in Basic CG (Spl Combat).
But nowhere in the rules of non-GT traveller does it make the marines better trained than the army... and the army, well, is a collection of various local forces.
I think far too many take the view that US Marines are an elite force, and therefore the IM's are an Elite Force. I disagree with both assertions. At least the latter is seemingly asserted by GT, by the expense of the marine package.
Cultass, rather than Rifle.
Vacc Suit 0.
Sounds like, to me, the basic CG marines are very much ship's security.
Yes, they get access to rifle. They even (under MT) get access to Battledress in Basic CG (Spl Combat).
But nowhere in the rules of non-GT traveller does it make the marines better trained than the army... and the army, well, is a collection of various local forces.
I think far too many take the view that US Marines are an elite force, and therefore the IM's are an Elite Force. I disagree with both assertions. At least the latter is seemingly asserted by GT, by the expense of the marine package.
Glen Allen Mcinnes
SOC-12
What about main line Imperial "Fedreal" garason troops that end up doing all the peace keaping and police action work? and local goverments can also run marines either on their SDB's or starships for muilty world goverments normaly they will have a lower standard of training and fewer optuinitys to exersize it? also Merc uints arange them selves along both Army and Marine lines so a marine with out battledress could hail from mercenary or local force that lacked the Tech or cash to provide Battledress training.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TNE's RCES Equipment Guide introduced Battle Dress at TL12, while T4 gives us augmented armour at TL10.
