Medics

[MThompson016]

I was a submariner for a few years, and modern US submarines have an Independent Duty Corpsman. Many of them have a tour or two with the Marines as combat support due to the knowledge factors required to become and IDC.

He would most likely be Medic-2 with Admin-1 as relevant skills. There are usually two or three sailors with Medic-0 assigned as an emergency team to help him. Notably, the corpsman doesn't stand watches as part of a normal shift.

 

[flykiller]

Notably, the corpsman doesn't stand watches as part of a normal shift.

(what do they do?)

in most "normal" traveller crews the steward does double-duty as the medic. have any comment on that?

 

[pendragonman]

well people set up game rules according to their knowledge levels.

imtu "medic" does not mean "specialist" or even "doctor". doctors are found in groundside hospitals or on hospital ships or maybe on big passenger liners with big medical facilities. medics are found in the field, on mercahnt ships, and in transitory care facilities. but they can specialize a little bit: medic 2*(trauma +1, pharmaceuticals +1, else -1).



gee, they still make those? or are they .25 calibre smoothbores by now?

See T% under "Knowledges"

 

[MThompson016]

(what do they do?)

in most "normal" traveller crews the steward does double-duty as the medic. have any comment on that?

He's like the CO or XO, always on call, and during the ship's 'day' will be awake and working. He monitors health issues like water quality and galley cleanliness, provides first aid training, keeps records up to date, and when drills occur, Doc is supervising the strecher bearers (usually cooks).

A combination Medic-Steward makes sense, as kind of being on call all the time.

 

[McPerth]

in most "normal" traveller crews the steward does double-duty as the medic. have any comment on that?

I've always found this combination one of the most useful for small crews. Actic as steward alows the medic to know the passengers better, and probably to detect any illness at its first simptoms (so allowing for an early detection and treatment).

Also, I've always thought that the medic main functions in a ship (aide from the ocasional accident or illness) woold be:

1. monitoring the low passengers (incluiding putting them in/out the low berths)
2. detecting any infectious illness that the passengers (and crew) might import to the destination system
3. informing the pasagers about the ones present on the destination system
4. fulfilling any vaccines requirements/recomendations in forcé in the destination system

Again, except function 1, those functions may be better performed by someone that keeps in close touch with the passengers, adn a steward position is ideal for that.

One could argue that Medical personnel may be seen as higher status that steward, but this is a Solomani view. According to MT:V&V, among the Vilani, for historical reasons, this status is not so true (and see that in Traveller, a Steward earns more salary than a Medic, so hinting this is kept among the starship crews community).

 

[Condottiere]

It's easier to train a nurse stewardship, than a steward nursing.

Except, you'd have to financially compensate the nurse more.

 

[McPerth]

As for military medics in merc (or military centered) campaigns, while no one will deny (or even discuss) their importance, they are not the most fun characters to play, the higher the echelon (for simplicity 1^st echelon is combat medics, 2^nd echelon is triage centers and 3^rd echelon is military hospitals), the less fun they are to play.

So to say, I think most players would find funnier to play Tour of Duty characters than MASH ones, to refer to TV serials...

See that this can also be said for most support branches of any military unit (intelligence operatives being probably the main exception)

 

[flykiller]

I've always found this combination one of the most useful for small crews.

from a bottom-line cost/benefit analysis, sure. but given combatmedic's experience and input I'm left wondering how realistic this is. medics aren't needed often but when they're needed 1) they're needed right now and 2) you want the best you can get, not some cross-trained fill-in.

He's like the CO or XO, always on call

this seems more realistic.

 

[BwapTED]

from a bottom-line cost/benefit analysis, sure. but given combatmedic's experience and input I'm left wondering how realistic this is. medics aren't needed often but when they're needed 1) they're needed right now and 2) you want the best you can get, not some cross-trained fill-in.



this seems more realistic.

Well, about my experience, I was in the Army and not the Navy.

A shipboard corpsman would have more relevant experience, if we are talking about a medic on a small starship.
How does NASA do it? That's another thing to look at.
Or, maybe a better fit for Traveller, how Age of Sail surgeons worked aboard ships.

Another thing-- what sorts of illnesses and injuries is the medic expected to deal with on a regular basis?
Is the crew expecting frequent injuries in combat?


Consider how merchant vessels at sea handle the role of a ship's medic.

I don't know that there's any single 'right' answer.

But I'd say any respectable merc outfit will want a dedicated field medic.

The steward/medic combo on merchant and other civilian vessels makes sense to me.

A Navy career character with the Medic skill can be a corpsman, nurse, doctor, etc.

 

[McPerth]

from a bottom-line cost/benefit analysis, sure. but given combatmedic's experience and input I'm left wondering how realistic this is. medics aren't needed often but when they're needed 1) they're needed right now and 2) you want the best you can get, not some cross-trained fill-in.

I disagree. Most times medics are needed will not be for an emergency, but for routine functions (as already listed) or minor illness that can wait even a few hours. And after all, if you need him right now, Steward job is among the ones that can wait in such situation (I guess even the peskier passenger will understand that a medical urgency is prioritary).

As for your second point, this would be true if what you have is a full doctor, but most ships will not have one, but a medic, nurse or paramedic (skill level 1-2), as the number of people in the ship does not require (nor justify) a full doctor on it.

this seems more realistic.

For what MThompson016 says, not only realist, but real

 

[flykiller]

Consider how merchant vessels at sea handle the role of a ship's medic.

a merchant marine medic, confronted with a serious situation, will request a medevac. frequently medevacs will not be available to a traveller starship, either because of distance or jump or setting.

Another thing-- what sorts of illnesses and injuries is the medic expected to deal with on a regular basis?

for crew, cuts and bruises and minor burns and geriatric issues. for pax, geriatric issues and the occasional minor injury from falls or fights after losing money in a gambling session. for groundside missions, who knows.

 

[flykiller]

Most times medics are needed will not be for an emergency, but for routine functions

well that's true for a combat medic too. the medic is there for the emergencies.

 

[BwapTED]

a merchant marine medic, confronted with a serious situation, will request a medevac. frequently that will not be available to a traveller starship, either because of distance or jump or setting.



for crew, cuts and bruises and minor burns and geriatric issues. for pax, geriatric issues and the occasional minor injury from falls or fights after losing money in a gambling session. for groundside missions, who knows.

Right, the lack of access to medevac while in Jump-space or in realspace but not very near a starport is something to consider.
That argues for hiring a skilled man.

But consider that even Medic-1 represents a significant amount of training. It's not too shabby at all, particularly given some futuristic tools, drugs, etc.
Certainly adequate for running sick call, patching crewmen up minor accidents, and stabilizing somebody in low berth.

Indeed, wouldn't that be one of the main uses of low berth? Stabilize a critically injured or ill person who would otherwise die?

 

[flykiller]

That argues for hiring a skilled man.

especially if the passenger patient is an important person. "you didn't have adequate medical care for general/lord/ceo somebody" ....

But consider that even Medic-1 represents a significant amount of training. It's not too shabby at all, particularly given some futuristic tools, drugs, etc.

a lot will depend on game rules/setting, yeah. "dialysis? we're dealing with medievalism here. take this pill." "doctor gave me a pill and I got a new kidney!" but traveller tech never has been portrayed as approaching star trek levels. given lbb4's portrayal of medics one can assume that medic 1 skill is equivalent to that of a combat medic.

Indeed, wouldn't that be one of the main uses of low berth? Stabilize a critically injured or ill person who would otherwise die?

it often is taken to perform in exactly that way. (shrug) it's a game and you can make it so, but it seems to me that if medical intervention is required then lowberthing will delay that intervention, and the drug transients required will not be helpful.

 

[BwapTED]

Yep.

So much of this comes down to the constant factor in games: what works for the Ref?
What's fun for the players?

RE the VIPs and medical care

Important, wealthy people will probably travel with a bodyguard and a steward/medic--or maybe robots or synthetics programmed for such functions if such things exist.

Does the duke's staff really want to trust the dodgy guy who dropped out of med school and signed onto a tramp starship with the treatment of His Lordship in an emergency?
And why is a nobleman travelling on a tramp starship, anyway...

Something's fishy!

I'm thinking ''small ship'' universe, BTW.

 

[Condottiere]

What happened to the autodoc?

 

[McPerth]

A shipboard corpsman would have more relevant experience, if we are talking about a medic on a small starship.
How does NASA do it? That's another thing to look at.
Or, maybe a better fit for Traveller, how Age of Sail surgeons worked aboard ships.

As Flykiller said, in most nowdays ships medevac is an option, and even in NASA case (where it is not) radio help (for advice, etc) is. This aside, for NASA, most of the people that goes to space nowdays are hand picked ones, where little health problems (aside th ocasional accident) may be expected (though, even then, some unexpected might happen)

As for Age of Sai ships, in most cases crews were in the order of hundreds, so justifying a full doctor. In most cases, Traveller Player's ships will have a crew under 10 and a handful passengers, IMHO hardly justifying it...

Another thing-- what sorts of illnesses and injuries is the medic expected to deal with on a regular basis?
Is the crew expecting frequent injuries in combat?

Unless the ship is a combat one, I'd say it may expect mostly minor accidents and light illness (aside from the main functions I told about).

But I'd say any respectable merc outfit will want a dedicated field medic.

That would depend on the size of the unit. A battalion will probably have at least 1^st and 2^nd echelons, while a comando squad is likely to have just a corpsman.

See that, at least for ground merc units (where medevac is an option), most combat medics will be more trained in first aid than in medicine. In CT/MT/MgT1E this makes no difference, in T4 first aid skill exists (not sure about other versions).

I know some renowned doctors I wouldn't trust in first aid situations, where they could not ask for lab or imagery tests, not have junior doctors and nurses to help them...

Right, the lack of access to medevac while in Jump-space or in realspace but not very near a starport is something to consider.
That argues for hiring a skilled man.

But consider that even Medic-1 represents a significant amount of training. It's not too shabby at all, particularly given some futuristic tools, drugs, etc.
Certainly adequate for running sick call, patching crewmen up minor accidents, and stabilizing somebody in low berth.

Not necessarly a highly skilled man, but surely someone trained in medicine, not just first aid (the fact they must care for the low berts will also probably make it a legal issue, to have someone legally trained on their use and monitoring).

Even while out of touch form outside (even to ask for advice by radio), I expect the expert computer programs to have improved from current ones...

Indeed, wouldn't that be one of the main uses of low berth? Stabilize a critically injured or ill person who would otherwise die?

I would not say their main use (at least for non emergency ones), as this would be to carry low passengers (at least in the versions it is more safe, like MT. In CT it's quite risky), but sure will be one of them...

well that's true for a combat medic too. the medic is there for the emergencies.

And are they "the best you can get" or "some cross-trained fill-in" to use your own words?

And again, for ground combat units, those are (IMHO) more likely to be trained in first aid that in medicine, and probably not full dedication to ther medic roles.

 

[flykiller]

well that's true for a combat medic too. the medic is there for the emergencies.

And are they "the best you can get" or "some cross-trained fill-in" to use your own words?

depends on whether or not you're feeling lucky ....

actually, depends on the military. a few would have none, most have somebody with some kind of experience or training, a few have top-of-the-line combat medics.

And again, for ground combat units, those are (IMHO) more likely to be trained in first aid that in medicine

and this is another issue. in the united states at least, combat medics' job is to keep the casualty alive and deliver them to a vast taxpayer-supported dedicated medical system which can handle just about anything and is on standby 24/7. for most military units though, the combat medic and/or field hospital is what they've got. for a traveller ship, the ship's medic is what they've got. for the pax on a traveller ship, the guy who a moment before was flipping hamburgers is what they've got. "don't worry, I've done this before".

 

[flykiller]

And why is a nobleman travelling on a tramp starship, anyway...

he wouldn't be. but I was thinking more just "important people". if "some old guy" dies on a boat the crew may not think it's a big deal - until they learn that the old guy's granddaughter is a shipping magnate ceo who wants to know why they didn't take care of her grandfather.

on the other hand a minor noble might very well be on a safari boat - minor to the imperium, perhaps, but you'd better not act like he's minor.

etc.

 

[BwapTED]

As Flykiller said, in most nowdays ships medevac is an option, and even in NASA case (where it is not) radio help (for advice, etc) is. This aside, for NASA, most of the people that goes to space nowdays are hand picked ones, where little health problems (aside th ocasional accident) may be expected (though, even then, some unexpected might happen)

As for Age of Sai ships, in most cases crews were in the order of hundreds, so justifying a full doctor. In most cases, Traveller Player's ships will have a crew under 10 and a handful passengers, IMHO hardly justifying it...



Unless the ship is a combat one, I'd say it may expect mostly minor accidents and light illness (aside from the main functions I told about).



That would depend on the size of the unit. A battalion will probably have at least 1^st and 2^nd echelons, while a comando squad is likely to have just a corpsman.

See that, at least for ground merc units (where medevac is an option), most combat medics will be more trained in first aid than in medicine. In CT/MT/MgT1E this makes no difference, in T4 first aid skill exists (not sure about other versions).

I know some renowned doctors I wouldn't trust in first aid situations, where they could not ask for lab or imagery tests, not have junior doctors and nurses to help them...



Not necessarly a highly skilled man, but surely someone trained in medicine, not just first aid (the fact they must care for the low berts will also probably make it a legal issue, to have someone legally trained on their use and monitoring).

Even while out of touch form outside (even to ask for advice by radio), I expect the expert computer programs to have improved from current ones...



I would not say their main use (at least for non emergency ones), as this would be to carry low passengers (at least in the versions it is more safe, like MT. In CT it's quite risky), but sure will be one of them...

Yes, all of that.


And the Medical skill in CT covers it all, trauma of various kinds as well as poisonings, illnesses, etc.

As Book 2 notes, Medical-1 qualifies a man to serve as a starship medic.