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Mercenary and Military Unit Tactics

Originally posted by jec10:
Hmm. Not sure where you get all this from in CT. Maybe it is so in MT, but the combat system of choice for more than interpersonal battles in CT is Striker and in Striker terms 90% of what you are saying is tripe. APCs and G-carriers are FAR better protected than Combat Armour or Battle Dress. For instance, the very best BD has armour rated 18 whilst the standard G-carrier is 54 on the front. When the very best RAM grenade penetrates 38 that means your precious BD grunts are getting chewed up by RAM Auto GLs while these rounds simply bounce off APCs. The same is true of autocannon or VRF Gauss Guns - they will rip through the BD troopers but bounce off standard APCs like the G-carrier. For Cr200,000 I can fit point defence fire control on an autofire weapon on the cheapest APC and shoot down incoming tac missiles.

At least in CT/Striker it is abundantly clear that your infantry can be far better protected in an APC (even a standard APC like a G-carrier) than in BD alone.
Now I have to admit I only recently got Striker, and I haven't spent much time with the rules. I do notice that the G-Carrier in Striker is quite a different vehicle from the "Quasi-Military" vehicle in LBB3, MT and T20. It is 3 times as fast as the G-Carrier in LBB3 and has the same armor as a Tank. You certainly get more bang for your buck in Striker than in the other versions of Traveller I have in hand. Interesting. I wonder what I can build in terms of Battledress under those rules. (It might even be cheaper than combat Armor.)
 
OK The Forums are giving me crap right now.


atpollard wrote:The Vulcan was test fired in 1949 (TL 6), but it was based on a Gatling gun (1862) powered by an electric motor (1870s for commercial use) and could have been built at early TL 4.

[Until jet aircraft, no one needed the high rate of fire and had the surplus electricity to run it.]
Information I have said that the first of such guns were .60 or about 15mm was delivered in 1950 for testing. 1952 was when the 20mm was delivered. By 1952 you have practical jet aircraft.


OK Late TL6 Early TL7.


atpollard wrote:At least in CT, a G-carrier with 6 gunners in shirt sleeves operating 6 RAM Auto GLs should hold its own against battledress armed troops. The weapons are area of effect, will penetrate BD, and will not penetrate the G-carrier. The empty seats can be loaded up with lots of ammo to reload.

I pity any civilians caught in the combat zone.
But is that really an APC anymore? Sounds more like a Tank. And it is definitely going to have to get bigger to accomodate the Point Defense systems and gunners everyone wants to add as well.
 
atpollard wrote: At least in CT, a G-carrier with 6 gunners in shirt sleeves operating 6 RAM Auto GLs should hold its own against battledress armed troops. The weapons are area of effect, will penetrate BD, and will not penetrate the G-carrier. The empty seats can be loaded up with lots of ammo to reload.
BetterThanLife wrote: But is that really an APC anymore? Sounds more like a Tank. And it is definitely going to have to get bigger to accommodate the Point Defense systems and gunners everyone wants to add as well.
The primary function of a tank is to destroy other tanks (big gun). The primary function of the multi RAM Auto GL G-carrier would be to kill soldiers (many little guns). So it is probably an IFV and not an APC, but it should not do well against a tank (who knows what the crazy rules will show).

I proposed to replace the armored infantry troops with fewer ‘gunners’ (and no infantry) to deal with the poor tracking of multiple targets and the threat of grav-belted hoards. Probably no point defense on this vehicle. I guess it needs a PD companion to provide cover or darn good ECM.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> atpollard wrote: At least in CT, a G-carrier with 6 gunners in shirt sleeves operating 6 RAM Auto GLs should hold its own against battledress armed troops. The weapons are area of effect, will penetrate BD, and will not penetrate the G-carrier. The empty seats can be loaded up with lots of ammo to reload.
BetterThanLife wrote: But is that really an APC anymore? Sounds more like a Tank. And it is definitely going to have to get bigger to accommodate the Point Defense systems and gunners everyone wants to add as well.
The primary function of a tank is to destroy other tanks (big gun). The primary function of the multi RAM Auto GL G-carrier would be to kill soldiers (many little guns). So it is probably an IFV and not an APC, but it should not do well against a tank (who knows what the crazy rules will show).

I proposed to replace the armored infantry troops with fewer ‘gunners’ (and no infantry) to deal with the poor tracking of multiple targets and the threat of grav-belted hoards. Probably no point defense on this vehicle. I guess it needs a PD companion to provide cover or darn good ECM.
</font>[/QUOTE]Armor doesn't hold ground well, by itself. Further there is a reason to have infantry, in most cases it is to keep the other guy's infantry off your vehicles. If that pesky Infantry manages to flank you, or drop arty on your vehicles the fight goes the other way really quick. And of course ruleset variations mean in some versions of the rules it might work better than others.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> atpollard wrote: At least in CT, a G-carrier with 6 gunners in shirt sleeves operating 6 RAM Auto GLs should hold its own against battledress armed troops. The weapons are area of effect, will penetrate BD, and will not penetrate the G-carrier. The empty seats can be loaded up with lots of ammo to reload.
BetterThanLife wrote: But is that really an APC anymore? Sounds more like a Tank. And it is definitely going to have to get bigger to accommodate the Point Defense systems and gunners everyone wants to add as well.
The primary function of a tank is to destroy other tanks (big gun). The primary function of the multi RAM Auto GL G-carrier would be to kill soldiers (many little guns). So it is probably an IFV and not an APC, but it should not do well against a tank (who knows what the crazy rules will show).

I proposed to replace the armored infantry troops with fewer ‘gunners’ (and no infantry) to deal with the poor tracking of multiple targets and the threat of grav-belted hoards. Probably no point defense on this vehicle. I guess it needs a PD companion to provide cover or darn good ECM.
</font>[/QUOTE]Armor doesn't hold ground well, by itself. Further there is a reason to have infantry, in most cases it is to keep the other guy's infantry off your vehicles. If that pesky Infantry manages to flank you, or drop arty on your vehicles the fight goes the other way really quick. And of course ruleset variations mean in some versions of the rules it might work better than others.

Further you don't want to be in shirt sleeves in a hostile environment. Any penetration turns into a mission kill. Your vehicle also doesn't work well indoors, or without supporting infantry in built up areas.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> atpollard wrote: At least in CT, a G-carrier with 6 gunners in shirt sleeves operating 6 RAM Auto GLs should hold its own against battledress armed troops. The weapons are area of effect, will penetrate BD, and will not penetrate the G-carrier. The empty seats can be loaded up with lots of ammo to reload.
BetterThanLife wrote: But is that really an APC anymore? Sounds more like a Tank. And it is definitely going to have to get bigger to accommodate the Point Defense systems and gunners everyone wants to add as well.
The primary function of a tank is to destroy other tanks (big gun). The primary function of the multi RAM Auto GL G-carrier would be to kill soldiers (many little guns). So it is probably an IFV and not an APC, but it should not do well against a tank (who knows what the crazy rules will show).

I proposed to replace the armored infantry troops with fewer ‘gunners’ (and no infantry) to deal with the poor tracking of multiple targets and the threat of grav-belted hoards. Probably no point defense on this vehicle. I guess it needs a PD companion to provide cover or darn good ECM.
</font>[/QUOTE]Armor doesn't hold ground well, by itself. Further there is a reason to have infantry, in most cases it is to keep the other guy's infantry off your vehicles. If that pesky Infantry manages to flank you, or drop arty on your vehicles the fight goes the other way really quick. And of course ruleset variations mean in some versions of the rules it might work better than others.

Further you don't want to be in shirt sleeves in a hostile environment. Any penetration turns into a mission kill. Your vehicle also doesn't work well indoors, or without supporting infantry in built up areas.
 
When the rules allow vehicles to mount starship weapons (so powerful that you don't roll damage, each hit destroys the enemy vehicle), I find it hard to become overly concerned with surviving a penetration and mission kills.

The greatest advantage of your grav belt infantry in the MT rules, is the fact that the enemy can only kill them one at a time and you have maximized the number of targets, thus maximizing the time required to kill them.

For urban combat, sensors can see through a kilometer of earth, so a wall or two should provide little 'hiding' value. Many vehicle mounted weapons could probably shoot through a wall or two and still kill the infantryman, so I don't need to be able to go room to room to clear out enemy soldiers. The problem is vehicle or infantryman, one shot from a turret laser in orbit and 'poof'.
 
Why do you think I prefer Light Fighters to tanks. One of the reasons is Pulse Lasers and Starship Missiles. (The other is it works regardless of environment, in particular, they don't get grounded in a high wind.) They are about the same displacement of a typical tank and generally have as good or better armor. They are useful at escorting in the assault wave and perform in the CAS, Armor Support and Artillery suooprt roles admirably. They also work as customs escorts, anti-corsair duty and anti-smuggling operations.

As for sensors seeing through ground and buildings, that would depend on the sensors and what they were attempting to see. Looking at people, Life detectors only work if the Infantry is not equipped with Psi helmets. Densiometers determine composition of ore. Ladar, Maser, Radar, EMS sensors are line of sight systems. Thermographic only works through limited obstructions and they are wearing cameoline. That pretty much leaves Neutrino, and my infantry isn't using fusion or fission. Which sensors are detailed in the rules somewhere that I left out?

In an urban environment the vehicles will be in the open. Emitting Neutrinos and other sensors, and looking for targets. Not a healthy combination.

As for not worrying about penetration of the armor, as it would destroy the vehicle anyway? Not always. For example, in MT, a great hit with a Gauss Rifle will penetrate for 1-4 points of damage. In a hostile environment, that will likely kill the vehicle crew. A Hit in the side from a TL13 RAM HEAT Grenade will cause some damage penetrating the hull but not destroying the vehicle. So in a hostile environment it is much safer to wear proper protective clothing.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
They are about the same displacement of a typical tank and generally have as good or better armor.
Only in rulesets that use different rules for spaceship armor than vehicle armor. Under FF&S, FF&S2, or GT, tank armor seriously outclasses fighter armor.
 
The Problem goes both ways. Tanks can't hold ground(1) but neither can Infantry as soon as the enemy has realistic tanks. Sure, the AT team may kill a tank (ATGM did not expect 100 percent to hit IRL) but that tanks partner will very likely kill the AT team. And any other Infantry is dead without shooting back. Not every tanker is a brain-dead SS guy in "Shaving Privat Ryan" or "Kellys Heros" style after all.

Tank defence against artillery will also benefit from automation


(1) Actually they can IF they have a secure line of supplies and large enough numbers. Since that can not be guaranteed IRL they are considered unabel to do so. Depending on Traveller variant Traveller tanks have far less dependency on resupply due to Fusion power and can have far more automation
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
They are about the same displacement of a typical tank and generally have as good or better armor.
Only in rulesets that use different rules for spaceship armor than vehicle armor. Under FF&S, FF&S2, or GT, tank armor seriously outclasses fighter armor. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually both MT and T20 use the same vehicle design rules for vehicles as starships. In both of those Starship armor starts at light (T20) or medium (MT) tank level and you add from there.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
The Problem goes both ways. Tanks can't hold ground(1) but neither can Infantry as soon as the enemy has realistic tanks. Sure, the AT team may kill a tank (ATGM did not expect 100 percent to hit IRL) but that tanks partner will very likely kill the AT team. And any other Infantry is dead without shooting back. Not every tanker is a brain-dead SS guy in "Shaving Privat Ryan" or "Kellys Heros" style after all.

Tank defence against artillery will also benefit from automation


(1) Actually they can IF they have a secure line of supplies and large enough numbers. Since that can not be guaranteed IRL they are considered unabel to do so. Depending on Traveller variant Traveller tanks have far less dependency on resupply due to Fusion power and can have far more automation
And here I thought the reason that tanks were not suitable for holding ground is because one of the major advantages of a Tank is mobility. When you are holding ground you give up that major advantage. After all if you are going to use tanks to hold ground or spread out the armament found in a tank and fortify the positions that you put the weapons in, you are better suited to holding the ground. (2-3 machineguns and a canon spread out with equal protection to a tank or one tank, which can go down to one hit.)

A second reason is that a tank is easier to detect than the equivalent systems when they aren't mounted on a tank, are dug in and dispersed.

A Tank unit takes up less ground to an equivalent sized Infantry unit when set up in defensive positions making them easier to bypass.

Supply is only one reason Tanks aren't suited to holding ground. In fact I would say it is a secondary reason, as a Tank that isn't moving, with the exception of an M1 which uses almost as much fuel sitting still as it does while moving, uses very little fuel and just as much ammunition as a similarly armed unit in a defensive position.

And yes I know that defensive positions are not exactly static. With fall back positions, secondary positions, etc.

A Tank is designed, primarily as an offensive weapon, maximizing firepower, protection and mobility in as small a package as possible, where a defensive position can actually be better protected, with equal or greater firepower and set up to cover more ground with the same size unit.

As for AT teams getting shot up after only getting one shot off, that depends on several large assumptions. The type of AT weapon. The range of the engagement. The firing position. The signature of the weapon. The vision capability of the target unit, including whether the target unit is buttoned up.). Terrain.

For example a the Javelin system is fire and forget, with little signature, and can even be fired from within a building. With the reload time of the Javelin the second missile can pretty much be enroute to a second target before the target unit realizes it is under fire. A GLID, backed up by either Copperhead or Hellfire, in a good defensive position, has no signature, and can strike several units without warning or detection. Even the Tow IIC has a low signature and if properly set up and located the launch signature can be well hidden from potential return fire. Further most ATGM have longer range than the units firing back at them.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually both MT and T20 use the same vehicle design rules for vehicles as starships. In both of those Starship armor starts at light (T20) or medium (MT) tank level and you add from there.
I've never used the MT design sequences, but AFAIK they ignore realistic volume estimates. As for T20, that's blatantly not true; otherwise, I can just declare my tanks to be starship scale and they'll suddenly be far tougher, for no explainable reason.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually both MT and T20 use the same vehicle design rules for vehicles as starships. In both of those Starship armor starts at light (T20) or medium (MT) tank level and you add from there.
I've never used the MT design sequences, but AFAIK they ignore realistic volume estimates. As for T20, that's blatantly not true; otherwise, I can just declare my tanks to be starship scale and they'll suddenly be far tougher, for no explainable reason. </font>[/QUOTE]And you believe that the USS New Jersey doesn't use realistic armor volume estimates either. (You want to calculate armor using Surface area instead of volume.)

You can use the starship rules for tanks in T20. You have been able to use starship building proceedures for tanks since LBB5/Striker. What is new about doing this?

What is the difference between a High Tech Tank and a High Tech Light Fighter, while operating within the envelope normally reserved for Tanks? Most of the standard designed Light fighters lack armor, but can have it. The practical difference is the name.

In tank design there are 4 factors. Speed, firepower, maneuverability and protection. All tanks are compromises between those 4. In all fairness, so are Attack Helicopters. They lower protection to increase speed and maneuverability. On the battlefield they, essentially, fill the same role.

In T20 if you build your tanks as spaceships instead of vehicles, you are limited to the Starship Power systems and all the other starship restrictions. (Must have a bridge, must have a computer, sensors are based on that computer, etc.) You gain 5 points of critical hit proof armor over a vehicle and the ability to mount starship weapons. You lose, at least, 3 DTons of internal volume, when compared to a vehicle. And powering weapons that are classified as vehicle weapons is not really covered in the rules, so generally requires an integral power pack. (There is no conversion between scales of power that works consistently.)

It is a trade off, but it always has been.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
Only in rulesets that use different rules for spaceship armor than vehicle armor. Under FF&S, FF&S2, or GT, tank armor seriously outclasses fighter armor.
Which I think is rather silly, seeing as starship weapons are stronger, and of course if their armor is weaker, then they will have another advantage (per unit of size).
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And you believe that the USS New Jersey doesn't use realistic armor volume estimates either. (You want to calculate armor using Surface area instead of volume.)
Hm? No, I fully believe that a 50,000 ton battleship with the same percentage of displacement in armor will have thicker armor than a 5,000 ton destroyer.

What is the difference between a High Tech Tank and a High Tech Light Fighter, while operating within the envelope normally reserved for Tanks?
Typically, the fighter allocates less mass to armor and more mass to speed. Assuming equal allocations, they should be equal, but grav tanks tend to not exceed 1.5 Gs, so they naturally have more armor than 6 G fighters.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And you believe that the USS New Jersey doesn't use realistic armor volume estimates either. (You want to calculate armor using Surface area instead of volume.)
Hm? No, I fully believe that a 50,000 ton battleship with the same percentage of displacement in armor will have thicker armor than a 5,000 ton destroyer.</font>[/QUOTE]YOU talk about armor being a function of Surface area, not volume. Which Means that the Iowa class is built wrong because it has armor, in addition to the exterior surfaces.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
What is the difference between a High Tech Tank and a High Tech Light Fighter, while operating within the envelope normally reserved for Tanks?
Typically, the fighter allocates less mass to armor and more mass to speed. Assuming equal allocations, they should be equal, but grav tanks tend to not exceed 1.5 Gs, so they naturally have more armor than 6 G fighters. </font>[/QUOTE]And once you get to TL14+ Armor mass goes down significantly enough that the distinction is no longer really there. And if you are only putting 1.5G accel into a tank, you build sluggish tanks.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
YOU talk about armor being a function of Surface area, not volume. Which Means that the Iowa class is built wrong because it has armor, in addition to the exterior surfaces.
No, I never said internal compartmentalization was a bad idea. I said the thickness of the hull armor scales with (quantity of hull armor)/(hull area).
And once you get to TL14+ Armor mass goes down significantly enough that the distinction is no longer really there.
If you use a real design sequence, you can always put on more armor.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
YOU talk about armor being a function of Surface area, not volume. Which Means that the Iowa class is built wrong because it has armor, in addition to the exterior surfaces.
No, I never said internal compartmentalization was a bad idea. I said the thickness of the hull armor scales with (quantity of hull armor)/(hull area).
And once you get to TL14+ Armor mass goes down significantly enough that the distinction is no longer really there.
If you use a real design sequence, you can always put on more armor.
</font>[/QUOTE]That isn't true in the real world, why should it be true in a game? Regardless of the game design system or even in real life, you hit a point of diminishing returns. In MT there is little difference between an armor rating of 18 and 35. Because most weapons that penetrate 18 also penetrate 35. There is little difference between 40 and 60, same reason. In CT there is little reason to put more than 10 points of armor on a starship. In T20 once you get past 10 points of armor, within your size class you take little damage, if any, and mostly only worry about critical hits, or big stuff shooting at you. (AR15 in T20 for a vehicle means you basically have to pound it with bay weapons from a starship.)

As for using fighters as tanks in HG or MT. That is really the only mission for a fighter in those rules. They can't even shoot an equal fighter down. (In fact they can't hit each other.)

Just because you can put more armor on, doesn't mean you should.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
That isn't true in the real world, why should it be true in a game? Regardless of the game design system or even in real life, you hit a point of diminishing returns. In MT there is little difference between an armor rating of 18 and 35. Because most weapons that penetrate 18 also penetrate 35.
Hm. Wasn't true in Striker. In any case, while there may be a point of diminishing returns, it's well over the armor level of a tank.

As for using fighters as tanks in HG or MT. That is really the only mission for a fighter in those rules. They can't even shoot an equal fighter down. (In fact they can't hit each other.)
Granted, but that's really just an argument for not having 'fighters' at all.
 
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