Mercenary and Military Unit Tactics

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by Kaale Dasar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthony:
Only in rulesets that use different rules for spaceship armor than vehicle armor. Under FF&S, FF&S2, or GT, tank armor seriously outclasses fighter armor.

Which I think is rather silly, seeing as starship weapons are stronger, and of course if their armor is weaker, then they will have another advantage (per unit of size). </font>[/QUOTE]It's a bit more complex in GT and TNE:

+ You can have a ship armored as strong as a tank. But it will either give over large amounts of space to the M-Drive or it will have the same low accellerations (less than 1g) of a tank

+ Ships fight in a different environment and mostly face different weapons. Longer ranges means more dilution of beam power and that, combined with Sandcasters allows for lesser armor while still being "turret proof"

+ Ships are more spread-out and less likely to be killed by a single hit. Battlecruisers took multiple hits from battleship calibers and remained in action during Jutland. Tanks more often than not will die from the first solid hit

So except ground attack fighters most starships can live with lighter armor

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
The Problem goes both ways. Tanks can't hold ground(1) but neither can Infantry as soon as the enemy has realistic tanks. Sure, the AT team may kill a tank (ATGM did not expect 100 percent to hit IRL) but that tanks partner will very likely kill the AT team. And any other Infantry is dead without shooting back. Not every tanker is a brain-dead SS guy in "Shaving Privat Ryan" or "Kellys Heros" style after all.

Tank defence against artillery will also benefit from automation


(1) Actually they can IF they have a secure line of supplies and large enough numbers. Since that can not be guaranteed IRL they are considered unabel to do so. Depending on Traveller variant Traveller tanks have far less dependency on resupply due to Fusion power and can have far more automation

And here I thought the reason that tanks were not suitable for holding ground is because one of the major advantages of a Tank is mobility. When you are holding ground you give up that major advantage. After all if you are going to use tanks to hold ground or spread out the armament found in a tank and fortify the positions that you put the weapons in, you are better suited to holding the ground. (2-3 machineguns and a canon spread out with equal protection to a tank or one tank, which can go down to one hit.)

</font>[/QUOTE]That assumes you can get BD/CA at all and/or with protection values equal to a tank or IFV. Most systems don't fulfill at least one of those assumptions. (MT restricts posession, GT/TNE/T20 have lower armor and/or duration)

And once you add 1-2 TL more (Heck, the current Leopard and LeClerc are close) to eliminate vision penalties from a closed up tank, those 3-4 tanks in a platoon can easily cover the same ground as an infantry platoon can while improving weapons damage (.50 instead of .308 etc)

A second reason is that a tank is easier to detect than the equivalent systems when they aren't mounted on a tank, are dug in and dispersed.

A Tank unit takes up less ground to an equivalent sized Infantry unit when set up in defensive positions making them easier to bypass.

The spreading of a unit is partially moral, partially observation system quality. Modern tanks have a lot of sensors with more being short-changed due to the end of the cold war.

And as strange as it may sound: Tanks can (and do) dig in. There is a reason the three hobbies of a MechInfantryman are "Dig in IFV, dig out IFV, clean IFV". And they have the habbit of dispersing.

Supply is only one reason Tanks aren't suited to holding ground. In fact I would say it is a secondary reason, as a Tank that isn't moving, with the exception of an M1 which uses almost as much fuel sitting still as it does while moving, uses very little fuel and just as much ammunition as a similarly armed unit in a defensive position.

And yes I know that defensive positions are not exactly static. With fall back positions, secondary positions, etc.

A Tank is designed, primarily as an offensive weapon, maximizing firepower, protection and mobility in as small a package as possible, where a defensive position can actually be better protected, with equal or greater firepower and set up to cover more ground with the same size unit.

Infantry (unless under heavy cover) is far easier to kill with artillery using simple area-aimed shells where tanks need smart ammunition. And if you want the legs to dig in properly you need quite a bit of time OR mechanised assets

As for AT teams getting shot up after only getting one shot off, that depends on several large assumptions. The type of AT weapon. The range of the engagement. The firing position. The signature of the weapon. The vision capability of the target unit, including whether the target unit is buttoned up.). Terrain.

For example a the Javelin system is fire and forget, with little signature, and can even be fired from within a building. With the reload time of the Javelin the second missile can pretty much be enroute to a second target before the target unit realizes it is under fire. A GLID, backed up by either Copperhead or Hellfire, in a good defensive position, has no signature, and can strike several units without warning or detection. Even the Tow IIC has a low signature and if properly set up and located the launch signature can be well hidden from potential return fire. Further most ATGM have longer range than the units firing back at them.

Strange, most infantry ATGM have a range around 2000m, a good deal shorter than the range of a tank cannon or the 30-50mm Autocanons on IFV. TOW, Hellfire etc. are rather big (50+kg) systems for vehicle mounts.

And while soft-launch is nice, PzFst III or MILAN III gunners are still taught to "get out of Dodge" after shooting.

 

[BetterThanLife]

CT and MT restricts Combat Armor and Battle Dress to Military and "Elite" Mercenary Units. That is the only restriction I am aware of. Elite is such an overused term. How do you define Elite? Considering that in a great many cases you need more than just a Mopp Suit, Do Non-Elite Mercenaries wear Vacc Suits, or only fight in friendly environments? So in that case an Elite Mercenary unit is one that is equipped to fight in all environments.

IMTU, for a unit to be equipped with Combat Armor and work within the Imperium, they must hold an Imperial Charter and their licenses must be in good standing. Battle dress is a little tougher license, generally long serving Mercenary Units only. You need a similar license to procure military grade armored vehicles as well. Sure you can, with minimal licensing buy ATV's or the G-Carrier from LBB3 (Not the Striker one which is milspec.) choose from the Paramilitary line of vehicles all day long. Nobody will give you a second look. Military grade armored vehicles, you better have your licenses in order.

We are talking about spending several million credits to equip a platoon. That in and of itself is an elite unit.

The US hasn't had an ATGM with a range of under 2500m since the Dragon. 2500m is the assumed effective range of a well trained crew in a T80. The Tow II was and still is a ground launched ATGM. You can launch from a tripod, a specialized vehicle, a HMMWV, a Bradley, or an attack helicopter. On the Helicopter mount it carries 3750m or wire, all of the ground mounts carry 3000m of wire. Javelin range is 2500m. Hellfire is 6000m. Those are the US Army's current inventory of ATGM. (Mavericks belong to the Airforce, though I have seen a picture of a pair mounted on an Apache.)

Yes you can dig in an armored vehicle. (Though that does require specialized equipment, of more than a shovel. While some tanks have dozer blades, I have yet to see an IFV with one.) Infantry, with strictly organic assets, (IE entrenching tools.) generally have shallow positions within an hour. (Which will keep most artillery fragments from doing anything.) 4-6 hours full, positions with overhead cover and concealment. (All but a direct hit stopped and frontal hits by most tanks absorbed.) Terrain, of course, dependent. Infantry positions are much more difficult to see than tank positions as well.

But again you are missing the point. I am not, nor have I ever advocated, a non-combined arms approach. I am claiming that at about TL12-Tl13 while the tank has a role the APC no longer does. And further since the majority tickets available to Mercenary units are going to be, by the very nature of the Imperium, in hostile environments where vehicles have no room to maneuver, and the collateral damage caused by their weapons is catastrophic, you are going to have to look at lighter forces. Combine that with the Price on all of the Canon tickets, and not only are armored vehicles going to be the exception, not the rule, even when you can use them, but a Mercenary unit can't afford the capital outlay to buy them in the first place and still equip their infantry.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Can't say for the US but European troops have integrated pioneer assets, at least a few backhoes and can dig in a "Bagger" faster than I can dig in myself.

And for digging in: My old HDV says 1 hour for a low foxhole reducing direct fire danger by 50 percent and 2 Man/3 hours for a uncovered combat position. Both in resonable treetrunc-free and dry soil.

Trying to dig in within a forrest easily doubles the time even WITH heavier shovels/axes/picks carried on the platoon vehicle. The Eiffel requires explosives.

As for effective range: I agree on the T80's canon range (the CLGM is rated at 4000/5000 m depending on version). And modern western guns can fire a bit further and still hit a target quite well.

MT talks about "elite mercenary batallions" and what "elite" means is very much IYTU. IMTU that is restricted to household units operating as mercs and units run by very trustworthy former imperial officers.

And vehicles don't have the terror weapon quality of a Battle Dress. A BD is easily smuggled past customs to go either on a nice killing spree or on a profitabel bank robbery. A bit more complicated to smuggle out a tank, just ask the german government


As for the price of the tickets, those have been considered "slightly off" since LBB4 came out. Basically anything past "3 guys, a jeep and a .50" is costing too much.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Can't say for the US but European troops have integrated pioneer assets, at least a few backhoes and can dig in a "Bagger" faster than I can dig in myself.

At what echelon? In the US they may be task organized down to Batalion level but they certainly aren't integral at company or platoon level.

And for digging in: My old HDV says 1 hour for a low foxhole reducing direct fire danger by 50 percent and 2 Man/3 hours for a uncovered combat position. Both in resonable treetrunc-free and dry soil.

Trying to dig in within a forrest easily doubles the time even WITH heavier shovels/axes/picks carried on the platoon vehicle. The Eiffel requires explosives.

About the same.

As for effective range: I agree on the T80's canon range (the CLGM is rated at 4000/5000 m depending on version). And modern western guns can fire a bit further and still hit a target quite well.

In the T80, as produced, the missile may have had that much range but the optics didn't. Things may have changed by replacing those optics. The system had other issues when produced as well.

MT talks about "elite mercenary batallions" and what "elite" means is very much IYTU. IMTU that is restricted to household units operating as mercs and units run by very trustworthy former imperial officers.

IMTU Having a clean service record in the Imperial Marines, or certain key armies, is a fast track to a Valid Imperial Mercenary charter and appropiate licenses. From my reading of material on the subject, Huscarles, or household troops are pretty much barred from Mercenary service. The Imperium doesn't want Imperial Nobles interfering in local politics. Though they might look the other way in some circumstances.

And vehicles don't have the terror weapon quality of a Battle Dress. A BD is easily smuggled past customs to go either on a nice killing spree or on a profitabel bank robbery. A bit more complicated to smuggle out a tank, just ask the german government

You don't need any kind of armor for terrorist attacks. In fact armor of any type is likely to draw unwanted attention to a terrorist operation. Why worry about armor, when all you need is a Vacc suit and a couple of canisters of VX gas?

As for the price of the tickets, those have been considered "slightly off" since LBB4 came out. Basically anything past "3 guys, a jeep and a .50" is costing too much.

Yeah well, since nothing has been done to correct that issue, still, apparently nobody official believes that is so. The most recent canon tickets tend to be in the same ballpark, or even a little lower.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Why worry about armor, when all you need is a Vacc suit and a couple of canisters of VX gas?

Why bother with the vacc suit? Real terrorists know that you need to expend a few martyrs. If you are squeamish about such things, just put the canister of VX gas in a butlerbot.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Why worry about armor, when all you need is a Vacc suit and a couple of canisters of VX gas?

Why bother with the vacc suit? Real terrorists know that you need to expend a few martyrs. If you are squeamish about such things, just put the canister of VX gas in a butlerbot. </font>[/QUOTE]Well since the terrorists were going to wear battle dress I figured they weren't expendable.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Wait a minute how do you smuggle

Battle Dress (Cr200.000; TL 13): The ultimate in individual protection, battle dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received) and receives a DM of +2 for surprise.

through customs? It is effectively a one man battle tank. (Minus the firepower.) Even carrying it in several bags the parts are still rather obvious as to what they are. (And they are still milspec armor plating regardless of what it is carried in.) Are you planning on wearing it under a big trench coat and simply walking in with it, helmet, oxygen bottles and all? It would be easier to smuggle in a Tank. Just forge the destination documents.

 

[aramis]

Just a couple thoughts:

Battle Dress - getting it through customs is unlikely IF customs exists.

TL13+ APC/IFV: still has one role: getting troops through atmosphere in unified squads.

Tac Missiles: Rules in Striker. Pretty straightforward even in MT.

Ship's Missiles: MT has some decent tables, but no text to explain them... but SS3 can be readily adapted...

 

[mbrinkhues]

Not all Terrorists are interested in becoming a martyr. Karl Marx does not promise you 40 Komsomolez when you die for the cause neither did the IRA promise fountains of uisge beatha to it's members when you do.

So Terrorists from European-American cultures try to survive and escape.

 

[atpollard]

Could you 'smuggle' in a battledress by jumping out of the ship on approach and landing in the woods? Even if the drop point needs to be within the extrality fence (but away from the facilities) it should be a simple matter to jump over or cut through the extrality fence in battledress.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
So Terrorists from European-American cultures try to survive and escape.

European Terrorists do, but Americal terrorists seem split 50/50. Some Americans plant bombs to be far away when they go boom (like Oaklahoma City), while others just go on a shooting spree and kill themselves (or "suicide by Police").

I think that most Americans prefer to riot and loot more than Terrorism - materialism at it's finest.

Europeans seem to only riot over soccer matches and then attack defenseless cars.

 

[mbrinkhues]

European cars are not defenceless. They are dangerous beasts that take unaware drivers with them on a suicidal dash:
A suicidal BMW

Homicidal Renault

So those are not rioters, those are brave, clearly identified and well-regulated Militaman(1) defending their fellow citizens against evil vehicles by using pre-emptive strikes.

(1) European Militia have one of three types of common identification marks:

a) No hair on the head
b) Black balaklavas OVER the head
c) Multi-colored shawls/shirts/faces and 1.5+ promille of blood alcohol

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Could you 'smuggle' in a battledress by jumping out of the ship on approach and landing in the woods? Even if the drop point needs to be within the extrality fence (but away from the facilities) it should be a simple matter to jump over or cut through the extrality fence in battledress.

With the exception of the TNE "Heavy" most BD are slightly above Human size and not that heavy. Most also come apart at the waist for entry. So you should be able to disguise them (among others) as:

+ Part of a container of automobile parts
+ Within a container of ore

And the all time german army classic:

+ In a container labeled "agricultural equipment"


Trying to use the above container to smuggle in tanks OTOH will likely fail since the Tractors build by UKBM Nizhny Tagil is a few tons heavier than one build by Deutz Landmaschinen

 

[atpollard]

Or a standard shipping container of miscellaneous, disassembled vacc suits (to a world with a toxic atmosphere) that just happens to have 1 disassembled battledress among all of those similar parts. Let them scan it. Let them open it.

 

[far-trader]

Starport customs bulk cargo entry...

Scanner tech "...so anyway I said to the little man you need to pull your weight in this marriage or it's over. He said, (smacks console), darn computer is acting up again. Sorry bout that, gotta start the scan again, just be a minute while it resets. Anyway the hubby started going on about not appreciating the work in keeping a home running... ".

Player, sweating, "Can we hurry this up? I have to have this delivered by close of business or I lose my bonus."

Scanner tech "Sure thing, you're done now, but you won't be making that delivery." points behind player, as an omninous hum is heard...

"Imperial Marines, don't even twitch and you may just live a long life on a nice MOJ Prison Planet."

Scanner tech "When will you smugglers learn that BD is built with micro rfid chains woven into it? Trying to "hide" it in a crate of Vacc-Suits? The BD rfid automatically triggers a level 1 IMP callout when they go through any starport scanner." Shakes head sadly as the player is led off secure under heavy guard. "Next!"

 

[BetterThanLife]

And if the scanner can't tell the difference between structural steel and bonded superdense, get a new scanner. YOu don't smuggle in a Tank as something else, you smuggle it in as a Tank. It is less likely to attract attention. You just fail to deliver it to the person or entity on the shipping container.

There was a Soviet Tank Crew, in the late 80s, that got lost, then got drunk. Sold their T-72 for 7 cases of Vodka and 7 pounds of pickled herring. (It happened in what is now the Czech or Slovak Republic, I forget which one.) They found the crew passed out in the woods with a bunch of empty Vodka Bottles. But without the tank.

They apprehended the tavern owner, some weeks later, when he was selling high grade Armor plating for scrap metal. (Apparently he went through some hacksaw blades cutting it up.) Oh and according to the Tavern owner the Tank was payment for the Vodka, he threw in the pickled herring as a gesture of communist solidarity.

The moral of the story, even cut up in unrecognizable pieces that can't be reassembled, on a low tech planet, you are still going to get busted with high grade armor plating.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Shakes head sadly as the player is led off secure under heavy guard. "Next!"

Player 2 watches as the patsy gets hauled away. "Schmuck. He should have known that there is a reason we get most of our stuff from outside the Imperium."

 

[jec10]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:


The US hasn't had an ATGM with a range of under 2500m since the Dragon. 2500m is the assumed effective range of a well trained crew in a T80. The Tow II was and still is a ground launched ATGM. You can launch from a tripod, a specialized vehicle, a HMMWV, a Bradley, or an attack helicopter. On the Helicopter mount it carries 3750m or wire, all of the ground mounts carry 3000m of wire. Javelin range is 2500m. Hellfire is 6000m. Those are the US Army's current inventory of ATGM. (Mavericks belong to the Airforce, though I have seen a picture of a pair mounted on an Apache.)

Which is (nearly) all entirely superfluous to the original post which referred to infantry ATGMs. We are talking about man-portable ATGMs here (to go with your thesis), not various vehicle mounted or portable systems. The Javelin is the only relevant system you mention, and it requires a two-man team, and is generally considered overweight by users (especially when you consider the weight of the batteries which it chews through), and only has a 2.5 click range. An autocannon-armed IFV can outrange that today, provided it has decent optics.
Try designing an ATGM light enough for one man to carry unemcumbered using Striker. It is not much fun if you want decent range and penetration.

That said, if you are consistently using battledress for your gunners then under Striker you can carry up to 100kg unemcumbered. This gives greater scope for a long-range, good penetration, missile. Still doesn't get around the point-defence systems most vehicles from TL9 will be sporting though.

 

[atpollard]

No wonder fuel costs so much at a starport. Bonded Superdense is TL 14 and the average 'mercenary' adventure world is only TL 9, yet even this hole-in-the-wall has a scanner able to tell the difference between an illegal suit of TL 14 battledress, a legal "hard" vacc suit (TL 14, bonded superdense), a legal powered vacc suit (TL 13, superdense), a legal "hard" vacc suit (TL 12, superdense), a legal "hard" vacc suit (TL 10, crystaliron), a legal "hard" vacc suit (TL 7, composite laminate) and an assortment of soft vacc suits.

Please.