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Mercenary Ships/Squadrons

Yeah, well, mine have an experimental gravitic shield, sort of like an Alderson Field a la The Mote in God's Eye... Plus spinal mount meson guns on the BBs, BCs and heavier CAs; there are also particle accelerators on everything 5k dtons and up... I'd offer to test them against Trader's Raiders, but I'd win so fast I'd violate the Rules of War!
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:eek: :cool:
 
Yeah, yeah, and mine have disintegrators, white globes, relativity beams and built-in pocket universes. :rolleyes:

Seriously, what's the point?

Regards,

Tobias
 
The point of this? Well, originally, the feasiblity of mercenary fleets in the OTU and various UTUs (Unofficial Traveller Universes). Then Trader Jim showed up. I've really got to stop feeding him... ;)
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Can anyone tell me what "YMMV" means?!? And what are white globes?
 
Yaskoydray's Miserable Mishap: Vargr.

A white globe is basically the same as a black globe, without its disadvantages. You're untouchable, but can freely maneuver and fire out yourself.

A relativity beam manipulates the passage of time in a certain area. An absolutely deadly weapon, with no possible defense (not even a white globe).

Regards,

Tobias

P.S.: I figure you already know, but YMMV actually mean "Your mileage may vary"
 
Originally posted by Tobias:
Disclaimer: All my remarks follow OTU as best as I can, but naturally are ultimately IMTU.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
The previous messages seem to imply that government ownership of capital ships was acceptable (if expensive and possibly uncommon).
Government ownership of warships is obviously tolerated in the form of system defense squadrons. However, these seem to belong to the framework of the Imperial Navy.
</font>[/QUOTE]


Yeah...I can see that. My interpretation had been that local system defense forces were owned and run by the local government. They would need to exist within certain restrictions/guidelines handed down by the Imperium but beyond ties to the imperial nobility and their feudal responsibilities, they weren't technically a part of the Imperial military.

I would see the guidelines being along the lines of technical specifications and training recommendations to make it easier for the local to work with the Imperium when needed. The restrictions would certainly be there as an aide to maintaining the Imperial military's superiority should it come to a conflict between them.

Following the spirit of your disclaimer, I could certainly be interpreting this situation wrong in regards to the OTU...I don't honestly remember reading much dealing with that level of things.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Would the Imperium object to a world whose government regularly hires out its own navy as a mercenary force?
Simple answer: Yes.
Remember the principle of Imperial rule. The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between worlds. It is very unlikely to tolerate any threat to this rule, as a fleet of this size would be.
To ensure the above principle of rule, all major space forces in the Imperium must be under Imperial control. That's the gist of it.
A few other points:
- The Zhodani Consulate, as a far more monolithic and restrictive government, will tolerate a "mercenary fleet" within its borders even less.
- There is absolutely no purpose for such a battle fleet except fighting a major interstellar war. Major interstellar wars violate the Imperial rules of war.
- The upkeep of such a fleet would require hundreds of thousands of tons of spaceyard capacities, as well as billons of credits per year. Where do the "mercenaries" get this?
- Building the hardware for such a fleet would require trillions of credits worth of industrial work. Again, how do the "mercenaries" get this?
- The hardware concentrated in such a fleet is worth so much that several million persons could live like kings for the rest of their lives if they sold it. Why would "mercenaries" keep such a fleet?
</font>[/QUOTE]By and large, I would have to agree with you regarding these points. The one thing I would add is that my alternate suggestion of a government treating its military as a mercenary force isn't quite the same as "common" mercenaries doing it. I agree that there would be a line in regards to the pure size of such a fleet...I'm not envisioning more than a single batron and supports or a couple of crurons...just big enough to be considered a fleet in traveller terms but nothing big enough to truly threaten the Imperium (not in the long run anyways).

Why would such a fleet exist? Perhaps it is the system defense fleet for a hiPop industrial world with a long time grudge with another similar world. Even though the likelihood of open warefare would be slim...especially given the spectre of Imperial intervention...tht doesn't mean the local government wouldn't want a sizable fleet to defend itself anyways. It might then be a very logical decision to hire out components of that fleet to other parties who are engaged in conflicts in order to keep the fleets edge and help defray the costs of maintaining said fleet.

How would it be maintained? They same way any other major system defense force would be maintained. Government funds slightly defrayed by the addition of mercenary fees.

Where would it be built and maintained? Why home of course. Afterall, this is not an itinerant mercenary company, this is a national military which hires itself out to others.

On the other hand, while I think this scenario could work, I actually agree with you that the Imperium is unlikely to tolerate it for long. Just to much risk of it ultimately breaking the rules of warefare and causing more damage to the interstellar economy than benefit.

Where I actually think the idea of this type of world could be a neat addition to someplace IMTU or OTU would be on a smaller scale. Forget batrons and crurons...who wants to maintain such monsters anyways. Build a fleet of smaller warships and then hire them out...could even be the business of a major megacorp (if one isn't doing it already...I'm pretty fuzzy on the traveller megacorps).
 
I'll try posting this again...

Many thanks, Tobias! When were white globes realized?

And you and BrennanHawkwood bring up some interesting points. Some I "find" myself ignoring under the YMMV rule, though...

Would a Sector Dux be allowed to have his own, personal fleet, or would that be considered a threat to the Emperor?
 
@ Jame

Re: White Globes
These are a TL 20+ development, so we're definitely talking Ancient Artifact level here. They were first mentioned in Digest Group's Grand Census/Survey, and detailed in MegaTraveller.

Re: Sector Dukes
I would say that a sector Duke or an Archduke de facto can have a large personal fleet, insofar as the regional Navy forces receive their orders from, and directly answer to, him.
The rebellion timeline highlighted this as most Naval Forces, especially from Illelish, sided with their regional leaders, rather than with the central High Command of the IN.
In addition, I would imagine that a high-ranking Duke could also raise local forces, using funds from his own estate. These would not approach the size of Imperial fleets, though. A Duke's fief can be equivalent to a medium-sized country, though, and might well be enough to purchase a few capital ships and support.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by Jame:
I'll try posting this again...

Many thanks, Tobias! When were white globes realized?
IIRC they become available somewhere in the range of TL18-20. I remember them being "available" for ships built with the MegaTraveller ship building rules, but they've dropped out of several sets of shipbuilding rules (T20 and GURPS included) since then. I think they may have been available in one of the versions of Fire, Fusion & Steel as well.


And you and BrennanHawkwood bring up some interesting points. Some I "find" myself ignoring under the YMMV rule, though...

Would a Sector Dux be allowed to have his own, personal fleet, or would that be considered a threat to the Emperor?
Thanks! Don't know if I would use all the ideas either...but its fun to talk out the possibilities...and then pick and choose for our own games.

As to the sector Duke...I would imagine that high placed nobles might be among those who would be allowed a little more leeway in this regard. Especially if they aren't a threat. I would also expect that possibility of a mercenary fleet being allowed to exist would increase in if it is sponsored by a powerful and/or loyal noble and if it was operating in a frontier region. Of course, the frontier region idea has its own problems...could put the noble in a better possition to strike out on their own. Of course that would be a failure of the feudal system that the Imperium is based on and that never happens... :D
 
Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood:
Yeah...I can see that. My interpretation had been that local system defense forces were owned and run by the local government. They would need to exist within certain restrictions/guidelines handed down by the Imperium but beyond ties to the imperial nobility and their feudal responsibilities, they weren't technically a part of the Imperial military.
This is how I envisioned it too.

Following the spirit of your disclaimer, I could certainly be interpreting this situation wrong in regards to the OTU...I don't honestly remember reading much dealing with that level of things.
There is nothing I can think of that contradicts it either, and it rubs well with the Imperial principle of letting worlds handle their own internal affairs.

By and large, I would have to agree with you regarding these points. The one thing I would add is that my alternate suggestion of a government treating its military as a mercenary force isn't quite the same as "common" mercenaries doing it.
Well, I have my doubts. World A's forces attacking World B's forces, no matter if for cash or any other reason, constitutes a war between World A and World B.
And interstellar warfare is generally a no-no inside the Imperium. Though it might depend how they fight. If they fight a short war about some contested area and strictly limit the fighting to said area, the Imperium might tolerate. Everything else would probably violate the principles of the Imperial Rules of War.

http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/I/imprlwar.htm

Note that following the IRoW, the Imperium would probably be more tolerant of private-enterprise forces than of government-sponsored ones. Makes sense, too, since the Imperium does not want member worlds to rule/annex/dominate other member worlds. If you want intervention forces, you'd better officially call them "volunteers" or somesuch.

[snippage]

Your ideas make a lot of sense to me. I think of Legion Condor "volunteers", or American "advisors" in Vietnam in the early sixties, as well as Chinese "advisors".
Forces you send to meddle in another country's/world's internal wars, but small and obscure enough to maintain a pretense of neutrality. The scale of such units would be fairly limited, though.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Many months ago, when Liam, Shane, I and a few others were thinking of writing a TA on Merc Units of the Imperium, I came up with this feisty little starmerc unit - The Wraiths. Here's a copy of the original write-up:

------------------------------------


8050th (Provisional) System Defence Squadron – The Wraiths


Mercenary SDB Squadron / Squadron strength - 1x 4000t SDB Tender + 4x 400t SDBs.

Location/Homeport of call 2019 – Soros LIC cluster, L4 Lagrange Point - T’Kada (Khimudire 6) Khimudire/Titanstorm/Ley B567A9A-C 703 I G0 V

Introduction
Olmosh Operations LIC was formed in the early-900s by the Olmos family, refugees who fled Paladin/Beckann/Gateway during the collapse of the Galian Trade League, forced to abandon their struggling manufacturing and service operations there. As entire refugee corporations relocated to the Ley Sector, the Olmosh joined the L4 colony near Khimudire, a high population world in the Titanstorm Subsector. By 916, they secured their first contract with the powerful Soros clan, owners of the L4 complex. The Olmosh family began provided servicing support to the expanding zero-g colony. Within ten years, they had purchased a retired TL A system defence boat, and pressed it back into service in customs and security operations for the Soros clan. Some years later, young Vincente Olmosh, the heir to the company, joined the crew of the “Phoenix Wraith” as a junior gunner.

Over the next 50 years, Vincente established a very successful Starmerc division of Olmosh Operations, The Wraiths. The Wraiths currently operate four TL C 400t “Shashka” class system defence boats as a mercenary squadron – Shadow Wraith, Soul Wraith, Spectre Wraith and Spirit Wraith. The Wraiths’ capabilities have been further enhanced by the recent acquisition of a 4000t bulk freighter. Now heavily modified, the “Olmosh Vision” serves as SDB tender, flagship and as corporate headquarters for Olmosh Operations Starmerc Division and the Wraiths.

The Wraiths are currently in the final months of their 3 year service contract with the Loyal Sector Guard. Designated as the 8050th (Provisional) SDB Squadron, the Wraiths are currently operating out of Shamuus/Diamond Prince/Ley, conducting anti-piracy operations. Recently tensions among the Wraiths have been increasing, as Consuela Makai, the Wraith’s marketing officer, has been unable to close negotiations with the local commander of the LSG for renewal of their contract. Now, 76 year old Commander Vincente Olmosh is beginning to consider his options.

-------------------------------------

[Here's the text from the latest marketing blurb for the Shashka. Copyright T'Kada L4 Shipyard, Khimudire/Ley, 993.]

"Shashka" 400t TL C SDB
(a la Book 5)

Shashka A (Spirit Wraith and Spectre Wraith)
SDB-41056F1-C00000-35000-0
Shashka G (Shadow Wraith and Soul Wraith)
SDB-41056F1-C00000-40003-0

The Shashka class SDB, designed for affluent TL A-C markets, is currently being built at several Ley Sector shipyards, including the T'Kada L4 yard in Khimudire/Ley. In most respects, the Shashka class is typical for the standard TL C system defence boat. The vessel was designed from the outset to be capable of working singly or in teams to apprehend or eliminate any escort-sized threat.

The Shashka has several noteworthy features (as per T20):
a. The Manoeuvre Drive has been reduced to 5-G, more than adequate for anti-piracy duty, but freeing up additional space and energy for the heavier weapons load of the A model;
b. The Model 6 fibre-optic operations management system has the extra processing power to run added programs in even the most demanding operational situations;
c. The flying wedge airfoil hull maximizes stability and responsiveness. Together with the latest Model 6 Flight Avionics package, the Shashka can out-fly or out-gun most of its opponents;
d. Both standard models are protected by the best armour (AR 12) available at TL C;
e. Although the sensor and comms ranges are reduced (both Model 5), the Shashka features a maser pulse communications suite highly suited to operations in dense or volatile atmospheres;
f. The Shashka comes with a variety of weapon fits. The 'G' model features a standard but potent mix of one battery of two triple beam lasers (USP 4) and one battery of two triple missile turrets (USP 3), while the 'A' is built to get in close with a powerful battery of two double fusion gun turrets (USP 5) matched with a battery of two triple pulse lasers (USP 3). Other weapons fits are available;
g. In spite of the weapons load, the Shashka's massive Makhudire Systems fusion power plant ("Fighting your way out of a Gravity Well? No problem with Makhudire!") generates enough output to handle 5-G and full combat flight profile (at agility +5) with power to spare; and
h. With a crew of only nine (Pilot, Co-pilot, Chief Gunner, Gunner's Mate, Chief Engineer, Engineer's Mate, two Drive Hands, and Medic), the Shashka is easy on the payroll of even a smaller planetary fleet.

All this for only MCr 404.632 (discounts available for fleet purchases).

--------------------------------------


Paul Nemeth
AA
 
My take on all this is that the Imperium wouldn't be particularly keen on large merc fleets wandering around. They might still happen, however. In addition, of course, they could be found outside the borders of the major interstellar states, say in Trojan Reach, fighting the Aslan, or in Vargr space, fighting, umm, everyone.

Where would they come from? Well, in some cases, the Imperium might form them, or at least encourage their formation. This might happen, for example, if one of its client states is having a bit of trouble with encroaching Aslan, and sending an Imperial fleet would be diplomatically inappropriate.

In other cases, they might come from outside the Imperium. For example, an Ihatei fleet might agree to fight for a world in return for land, or at least the provision of a secure base while it continued to search for land.

Alternatively, some or all of a Vargr fleet might find itself in exile, through having backed the wrong side in a war, or turned corsair under the influence of a charismatic leader.

So, yes, these kind of fleets can exist. I doubt that they would be allowed to wander freely around the Imperium. They would be more likely outside its borders.

There _is_ one case where mercenary fleets might be found inside the Imperium, and that would be where the fleet has a long relationship with a single employer. In effect, the fleet would become a "foreign" unit in a planetary navy, not a pack of freelancers. This would be particularly attractive to ihatei fleets, who would settle on the employing world in return for military service.

On a smaller scale, I have several organisations that maintain small flotillas of armed vessels floating around the Imperium. One of these is more or less a Vargr corsair band that has "gone straight" and become a respectable business empire/social club/organised crime gang/church/indescribable Vargr social institution. It still has a few of its corsair vessels around, although they generally operate as legitimate mercenaries inside the Imperium. (Outside, of course, is another matter entirely, and "generally" is not the same as "always".) None of these vessels are major warships, though.

Alan
 
Ahh, yes, the feudal system. So a Dux or Archdux could theoretically raise a small fleet, hmm? How big? One or two BatRons and a few CruRons would be my guess (maybe a bit liberal, maybe a bit conservative). Which reraises the question of how many support vessels, and what type, such a fleet would need.
One more wrinkle before I proceed: such a fleet could find itself in the employ of the Imperium, through the authority of the Duke or Archduke. Somehow they've been hired to search out small rebellions and other such trouble...

Antares Administration: I like that idea! Nice example of a merc squadron! I may borrow it, and modify it a bit...

Finally, alanb brings up a good point, though I'd focus on the lack of major ships - one can have a fleet of non-capital ships (though I see the point, but having a few of the 100+ kdton ships is as much of the fun as usin' them on "stuff), or such a fleet becoming part of another fleet (going native, as it were).
 
Originally posted by Jame:
...How big? One or two BatRons and a few CruRons would be my guess (maybe a bit liberal, maybe a bit conservative). Which reraises the question of how many support vessels, and what type, such a fleet would need.
One more wrinkle before I proceed: such a fleet could find itself in the employ of the Imperium, through the authority of the Duke or Archduke. Somehow they've been hired to search out small rebellions and other such trouble...
Jame, several of the posters here have touched upon the quandry of the logistics tail for a large mercenary fleet. Given that most 'client' planets or interstellar governors/governments would probably scale their infrastructure to the size of their owned fleets, there wouldn't be much surplus capacity most of the time. The exceptions, of course, would be depot worlds and border regions, where the Imperial pockets are deep, and funds are allocated to build reserve capacity just in case.

In order to profitably operate a merc BatRon, you'd have to be a mega-corp. IIRC, fleet maintenance is about 10% of construction cost (Trillion Credit Squadron?). Four Plankwell class dreadnoughts would cost GCr 48.2 per year, without any of the auxilliaries!

Clients would only pay for mission time (billable days, if you will). How much downtime would a BatRon have? I don't think that the economics of it add up for any corporation smaller than a megacorp.

Paul Nemeth
AA
 
Then I guess I'm a megacorp! Better start figgering out wha' and whar all that money comes from...

Hey! CAJI (Corporation for the Advancement of Jame, Incorporated), which primarily invests in ships and shipping, also has a number of smaller manufacturing and munitions concerns that deal with corporations and governments, notably the Darrians, Sword Worlds, Third Imperium, Zhodani Consulate, several Aslan clans and a few Vargr states. Any and all inquiries are contemplated. Use email please.
 
Originally posted by saulweaver:
IIRC there are subsector and sector navies. Are these commanded by the subsector and sector dukes, or by Imperial Navy admirals?
They are commanded by Admirals (who of course are usually nobles themselves) but there is supervision by the governing nobles. See MT rebellion sourcebook for an illustration.

Effectively, I'd say, Nobles can give orders to Naval units who are "below" them in the pyramid of territorial command, but only as long as no orders from superiors proper contradict this.

Additionally, an Archduke certainly has enough executive powers to command the Imperial Navy in his domain, barring explicit counter-orders from the Emperor.

Regards,

Tobias
 
A thought occurs - this topic title is about ships and squadrons, so perhaps this topic should mention that. Antares Admin/Paul (mind if I call you Paul?) has posted his "Wraiths" here, using the Shaska class series SDB. So, what would a typical merc ship/squadron be, using "normal" sized ships (i.e. 200-1k dton range)?

Tobias, what does your signature mean? Sorry, but what little German I remember isn't helping translate it.
 
Originally posted by Jame:
A thought occurs - this topic title is about ships and squadrons, so perhaps this topic should mention that. Antares Admin/Paul (mind if I call you Paul?) has posted his "Wraiths" here, using the Shaska class series SDB. So, what would a typical merc ship/squadron be, using "normal" sized ships (i.e. 200-1k dton range)?
Indeed it is possible, and a lot easier to maintain long-term (and stay profitable) then capital ships.

In a campaign I was in we had a lot of fun with our Phoenix Squadron. Integrated space/ground combat unit consisting of the following.

Te-Yoldin Te-Maghiz (Bringer of Chaos), Kinunir Class Destroyer Escort, 1400 tons (#)
Phoenix , Broadsword Class, 800 tons
The Fuel Pod . X-Boat Tender, 1000 tons
Nightwraith, Donosev Class Survey Ship, 400t
2 Fiery Class Gunned Escorts, 400t/ea (don't recall the names)

(#): Tonnage increased to fit the Aux. Bridge and other items listed in Adventure 1. I love these ships, but they are Destroyer Escorts, not Battle Cruisers----At least not until I can get the Mal'Gnar/Ancients TL25 refit :eek:

We were looking for a new fuel tanker, since the Xboat tender had that J1 limit. With the 35 troops on the Kinunir, plus the Phoenix's troops, we had a nice balance of forces.
 
IMTU there are two variants of the theme:

+ In the pre-rebellion timeline of "Scum of the Universe(1)" there are mercenary squadrons operating mostly older (TL12-14) ships and a few purpose-build TL15s up to and including fleet destroyers and troopships.

No WMD's, no spinal mounts and no meson bay weapons.

Average ship-size is around 1000dt with a few units having destroyers up to 5000dt and some ground units operating 10000dt troop carriers. Most crafts are small due to demand, maintenance and mission. You are more likely to find Typ T, Ramadas and Fierys than Chrysanthemums

The big ships are in large and prestigious units. Think Falkenberg's Legion here.


+ In my old Hard Times campaign there where a few mercenary fleets centered around an old re-activated heavy cruiser or two. Those where formed from sector units "nationalised" by Lucan who decided to take a "prolonged leave of absent" and offered their service to one of the smaller states in the Wilds. One of the Units, centered around a TL-13 Battlecruiser made an apperance in my short-running TNE campaign back in 1996/97.


(1) All players are lesser nobles not in line to their parents title in the 1114 Empire. Send away because of "accidents" etc. that happened at home.
 
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