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Mercenary Starships and Spacecraft

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually it is relevant as a Bradley loses at least two tons of volume due to its shape but not necessarily to its required space aboard a starship.
That's a function of slope (which GT handles), and is irrelevant to the volume of a passenger compartment. In any case, the 'volume' of an object refers to internal volume, not the stowage space required to put it on board a ship.</font>[/QUOTE]That is a strictly GT interpretation then.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As for someone thinking that a bench seat is sufficient for a Grav vehicle and life support is unimportant. First a bench seat will make surviving a catastrophic drive system failure unsurvivable from as low as 100 feet altitude. Second an APC only travels at about 60kph. Even a G-Carrier travels at more than twice that and a crash at that speed is also unsurvivable on a bench seat.
Assault helicopters have bench seats. In general, anything that can make a grav APC crash is a heavy weapon that will also gut the vehicle, killing everyone inside, so crash-worthiness is really an incidental objective. It's possible that APCs have something like roller coaster bars to hold people in place, but that doesn't add all that much volume, and it forces a rather small base seat.</font>[/QUOTE]OK First an assault helo does use bench seats. But those aren't for the crew. The crew uses real seats, the equivalent to acceleration couches and aircrews generally survive the impact with the ground caused by combat damage. Which if there is no passengers in the bench seats generally is considered a hard landing not a crash. (Before 1994, no Apache Helicopter ever crashed. Though there were quite a few hard landings.) You rarely hear about hard landings which happen more often than crashes. The difference between a hard landing and a crash is that in a hard landing nobody dies.

APCs probably do have life support/NBC. However, all that necessarily means is air tanks and CO2 scrubbers. A limited duration life support system for a small system like an APC is less than 0.1 cubic meters per man-day, particularly since the soldiers will have their own NBC kits. In any case, APCs are rarely used on airless worlds; orbital bombardment is easier.

APCs are probably rarely used off of habitable worlds; orbital bombardment is easier against rockballs. When they're used,
First, not all planets that require lifesupport don't have an atmosphere. Second, just because a system has no atmosphere, it does not mean that a landing and assault isn't required. After all it would depend on your objective.

Now one other point. A Bradley, at between 5 and 7 dtons, and a Marder at around 4 dtons has less than a full squad of passengers. In general you are looking at half a squad in them as a transport. The original M2 did not have a bench seat. That wasn't implemented until the later A2 and the A3 models. Even then they are limited to 6 dismounts.

Further a Soldier doesn't ride into combat in t-shirt and shorts. They wear lots more equipment. A unit equipped in Combat armor or a combat environment suit or even current BDU with LBE/LBV or whatever the current terminology is plus body armor is quite a bit bulkier than a normal human. Add the rest of their gear, to include rifle, shelter, demolition kits, communications equipment, sensors, crew served weapons, anti-armor weapons, grenades, additional ammo, life support (which includes air and FOOD), and your passenger compartment is exceptionally crowded. Now put a full squad in there, instead of a single fireteam and you definitely need more space.

In CT, MT and T20 this volume does include space around the vehicle for entering, leaving and maintenance and allows a vehicle to be carried in a drive off condition.

Further just because the passenger compartment, in your opinion, is the wrong size, the conversation is about carrying a Mercenary unit on a custom built starship. So the external dimensions and the required space for maintenance, boarding and exiting the vehicle and moving it about within the starship is definitely an important consideration.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
That is a strictly GT interpretation then.
No it isn't, that's the standard interpretation for starship volume.

Now one other point. A Bradley, at between 5 and 7 dtons
The Astrin in GT is essentially a high tech version of the M113. The M113 is 4.9m x 2.7m x 2.5m, and thus fits in a 2.36 dton box; internal volume is about 2 dtons. The M2 bradley is an IFV, and consumes a great deal of space with slope, a much more powerful engine, tracks, and the like.

Further just because the passenger compartment, in your opinion, is the wrong size, the conversation is about carrying a Mercenary unit on a custom built starship. So the external dimensions and the required space for maintenance, boarding and exiting the vehicle and moving it about within the starship is definitely an important consideration.
Sure. If you look in GT, you'll discover the component 'hangar bay'. One dton of bay holds 0.5 dtons of vehicles. That's the way ground vehicles would normally be stored on a starship.
 
Actually the "Super Cokecan" aka M2 Bradley is a tad smaller than the old Bagger, the German Marder IFV. And that comes in at 3-3.5dtons with it's current 6+3 crew (down from 8+3 in the original IIRC). And you can get smaller IFV's (BMP-3) IRL.

And agreed on the hangar bays.
 
Feldwaibel and Katzbalger mercenary crafts

Despite their rather low Techleve of 13 the Katzbalger class mercenary barge and it's Feldwaibel Jump-tender are quite new entries into the heavily competed mercenary market. Designed around the ideas that

</font>
  • Most of the mercenary contracts are Garrison or Cadre contracts that don't need a starship on station for quick evacuation</font>
  • The situations where landings are contested don't benefit from a jump drive but rather put a complex system into danger</font>
the system splits the transport ship into a well-armed landing component/mobile base (The Katzbalger) and the Interstellar transport component (The Feldwaibel).

To increase useability the Tender is sized to carry two standard 800dton Barges instead of the Lander and the Lander can be transported on a LASH Tender, replacing two Barges.

Katzbalger

The Katzbalger is a 1600dton craft with a maximum loaded weight of 6000stons. The craft is a blocky lifting body with a maximum height of 8meters, some 29m wide and around 60m long with a set of four vehicle bays in the lower hull and extensive crew quarters in the upper hull. The rear of the ship houses a massiv drive capabel of 3g constant acceleration and a larg fusion power plant to supply the various weapon systems.

The ship is designed as both a transport craft and a mobile base. To this end it carries both a space combat and a ground support battery, allowing it to fight his way in and then give long range support to the deployed forces as well as protecting itself.

Protective systems consist of a light armor, similar to a Typ T and supplemented by a nuclear damper, a mid level stealth and emmision control systems, a color-adapting hull, an ECM system and decoy dispensers.

Space combat weapons consist of six space combat turrets, four with a combination of twin lasers and a missile launcher (two reloads each) and two with double plasma canons. Ground combat support are six point defence lasers with independent power supply, two turrets with twin 200mm MRL batteries (30 salvos each) and two turrets with twin 75mm Gauß-Canons (2250 rounds each). Ammunition is stored in anti-blast magazins

Crew quarters are spartan but the crew support facilities like mess halls, briefing rooms, medical bays, shooting ranges and weapons storage are extensive as are the repair facilities.

Vehicles are housed in four roomy hangar bays that have attached maintenance facilities and spare parts storage. The holds are not Spacedock-rated so any orbital drop requires a lengthy evacuation of air from the respective hangar.

In addition to the ground unit the ship carries a command staff and a security detachment allowing the embarked unit to operate without leaving behind detached units to protect the base.

The common mission profile is for the [i}Katzbalger[/i] to detach and head towards the planet assisted by some of the Tenders fighters. It then finds a suitabel ground position and acts as a barracks installation until it is time to leave again.

</font>
  • 1600dton Streamlined Hull, Heavy Frame, DR500</font>
  • Empty Weight: 4410to, Average 5650to, Max: 6000to</font>
  • Accelleration 3g, 3.19g at average weight</font>
  • 295 Crew. 15 Command and Control, 6 Maneuver Drive, 6 Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 10 Turret Gunners, 220 Mercenary Unit, 34 Security/Steward in 38 Cabins and 48 Bunkrooms
    [*} Cargo Space: 177dtons + ammunition storage</font>
  • Office space for 8 persons</font>
  • Shooting range for 8 persons</font>
  • 3 Mess halls with attached kitches</font>
  • Fitness installation for 40 simultanious users
    [*} 24 bed sick-bay</font>
  • Large armory</font>
  • Command center and advanced communication systems</font>
  • ECM and Decoy Dispensers</font>
Feldwaibel J-Tender

The Feldwaibel is a small J-Tender with a 1600dton transport capacity in a single, non pressurised hangar along it's spine. This rather unorthodox construction was selected to enable wilderness refueling without the use of a barge. A second hangar under the command module houses a short wing of ten 10dton fighters and a 20dton Pinasse for liasion duty.

Fully loaded the tender is capabel of J3 and 1g Thrust, enough for the ships designated mission profile. The ship carries armor and electronic defence systems identical to the carried barge. Twelfe turrets (8 triple lasers, 4 triple missiles) act as a defensive system

</font>
  • 5000dton Unstreamlined Hull, Extra Heavy Frame, DR500</font>
  • Empty Weight: 7930to, Max 14640to</font>
  • Accelleration 1g, Jump 3, 14hours to refine fueld</font>
  • 5 Command and Control, 8 Jump Drive, 6 Maneuver Drive, 2 Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 6 Turret Gunners, 23 Flight Crew, 16 Additional. Total Crew 70 in 40 Cabins
    [*} Cargo Space: 60dtons</font>
  • Mess halls with attached kitchen</font>
  • Fitness installation for 8 simultanious users
    [*} 8 bed sick-bay</font>
  • Small armory</font>
  • ECM</font>
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
That is a strictly GT interpretation then.
No it isn't, that's the standard interpretation for starship volume.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, How do you figure that? A Starship or Small Craft in CT/MT and T20 carries vehicles at their Volume as expressed in DTons. So it is external volume plus whatever space is needed for access.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Now one other point. A Bradley, at between 5 and 7 dtons
The Astrin in GT is essentially a high tech version of the M113. The M113 is 4.9m x 2.7m x 2.5m, and thus fits in a 2.36 dton box; internal volume is about 2 dtons. The M2 bradley is an IFV, and consumes a great deal of space with slope, a much more powerful engine, tracks, and the like.</font>[/QUOTE]How do you figure this one?
Lets compare.

An M113 can be penetrated with small arms fire. A Bradley requires specialized but light anti-armor weapons to penetrate. A Merkava requires heavy anti-armor weapons to penetrate. An Astrin, in CT, MT or T20 can not be penetrated by infantry weapons and requires a Tank gun to penetrate.

A M113 is fairly slow, when compared to equivalent time period tanks. (Roughly 3/4 speed compared to contemporary tanks.) A Bradley is designed to keep up with contemporary tanks and designed to work in a combined arms team. A Merkava is a tank. An Astrin is equivalent speed to a tank.

A M113 is armed with a Heavy Machinegun, which the operator is exposed to fire when using. This can be supplemented by small arms fire from part of the carried squad by exposing the squad to fire. An M2 carries an autocannon with a coaxial machinegun, fired from within the turret and may mount a supplemental Medium Machinegun on the commander's hatch and may allow the carried dismounts to fire submachineguns out the side without exposing them to enemy fire. A Merkava carries a Tank gun with a coaxial machinegun and the crew has supplemental machineguns which can be fired from within the tank. An Astrin carries a Tank gun (Granted not the heaviest tank gun for that TL but it is a tank gun.) and a Coaxial Machinegun. Mounted in a turret.

An M113 carries approximately 11 dismounts, the Bradley carries 6, the Merkava carries 4-6 if you offload some main gun rounds, and the Astrin carries 8.

So actually the Astrin is closer to a Merkava than either an M113 or a Bradley. But in comparison strictly between the Bradley and the M113, the Astrin is quite a bit closer to the Bradley.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Further just because the passenger compartment, in your opinion, is the wrong size, the conversation is about carrying a Mercenary unit on a custom built starship. So the external dimensions and the required space for maintenance, boarding and exiting the vehicle and moving it about within the starship is definitely an important consideration.
Sure. If you look in GT, you'll discover the component 'hangar bay'. One dton of bay holds 0.5 dtons of vehicles. That's the way ground vehicles would normally be stored on a starship. </font>[/QUOTE]So if I understand what you are saying here, an Astrin is equivalent to approximately 9 or 10 tons, in terms of what it takes to carry it aboard a starship. Or close to the same size as CT/MT/T20 puts the vehicle as far as how many you can carry on a starship.
 
A suggestions(well, more a request):

Could we take the "size" discussion to a seperate thread (That I have started RIGHT HERE ) since it has taken a life of it's own that has little to do with the basic thread here.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
A suggestions(well, more a request):

Could we take the "size" discussion to a seperate thread (That I have started RIGHT HERE ) since it has taken a life of it's own that has little to do with the basic thread here.
Done.


I like your ship, but you are putting all of your eggs in one basket for insertion and pick up. For big units, (Like Brigade size plus) this might make sense, but for a Mercenary company it makes less sense. Also when assaulting something like a Highport, it makes very little sense. Now if you are going in against a soft target, it makes some sense.

Deployment to a hot LZ is definitely not something I would recommend with this ship as it allows the enemy to concentrate their fire on a single target all the way in. Deployment to a hostile environment is also going to be difficult.

You are also going to have a difficult time running down Pirates which tend to have ships in the 3G-4G range. a decent variety of Merchants are going to be faster, in N-Space, than your tender so escort missions for very high value cargos is going to be difficult as well.
 
Agree on deployment to a hot dropzone. While it has a good defence once on the ground, it puts the whole unit in danger during landing. It's really more for the Garrison guys. Should have put a greater weight allowance in the base craft


I am working up a variant tonight that drops the tanks etc. for a space fighter profile. I guess it will end up at 3.5 to 4g due to lighter weight (GT uses mass-based thrust)

As an alternate a bigger unit with more than one "Feldwaibel" will likely carry two or three 400dton SDB instead or a transport barge in one of them, leaving the "Space Supperiority" mission to those beasts.

In all mission profiles the Tender will remain well outside the danger zone. It can take care of itself against all likely threats (Good EW, decend stealth, good anti-missile capability, armor like a Typ T) but is too slow to run or operate as an attacking warship itself. For some mission profiles replacing the lasers with heavy lasers for more range and the missiles with the bigger 500mm units might be called for.
 
This is the only canon Mercenary Cruiser that is close to your specifications. (Converted from LBB5 to T20 stats.)

This one will have similar problems when dealing with a hot LZ but it can supress the heck out of an insertion corridor with its Missile bays.
For a Batalion plus deployment (three of these and a Command and Control Vessel) they can put in a COmpany into a Hot LZ to secure it for the rest of the BN to deploy.

This is a Light Infantry unit with two vehicles per platoon. So it doesn't really meet your specs, but I thought I would post it to show you what has been officially done in Canon.



T20 Starship Design Sheet Output

Eiaikeiar - Eiaikeiar Class Aslan Intruder Transport
Designed by: FASA

Statistics:
3,000-ton Hull (Needle/Wedge) - Streamlined
AC: 17 (14 vs. Meson Guns) AR: 5 (TL-14) SI: 300 Initiative: 3
Starship Size: Large Cost: 1,839.475 MCr (2,299.344 MCr without discount)
Model/7 Fib (PP: 57/13) Computer Avionics: Less than 4,000-ton Sensors: System Wide Communications: System Wide
Cargo: 65.0-tons Passengers:
Annual Maintenance = 183.948 KCr (91.974 KCr if routinely maintained)
Routine Maintenance = 45.987 KCr/Month (459.869 KCr per year)

Performance:
Jump-3 (enough fuel for 1x Jump-3)
Acceleration: 4-G Agility: 3
Power Plant: TL-14 Fusion (309 EP output, enough fuel for 4 weeks)
Fuel Scoops, Fuel Purification Plant (TL-14, 6hrs per 1,000 tons of fuel)
Atmospheric Speeds: NOE = 1,175kph Cruising = 3,525kph Maximum = 4,700kph

Active Defenses:
Nuclear Dampers USP:5

Weapons:
Hardpoints: 30
6x Triple Beam Laser Turret TL-14, +4 To Hit, 4d8 (20/x1), Range: 30,000km
6x Double Fusion Gun Turret TL-14, +5 To Hit, 5d20 (16/x5), Range: 4,500km
2x 50-ton Missile Bay TL-14, +9 To Hit, 9d6 (18/x1), Range: 90,000km


Ship's Vehicles:
6x 3-ton vehicle hangar
8x 10-ton vehicle hangar
2x 20-ton small craft (Internal Hangar)
Launch facilities for 1 Craft per turn

Accomodations & Fittings:
61x Double Occupancy Stateroom (122 People)
190x Low Berth (190 People)
2x Sickbay (4 Patients)
1x Airlock

Crew Details:
7x Command Officers, 3x Command Crew
1x Flight Officers, 8x Flight Crew
1x Gunnery Officers, 20x Gunnery Crew
2x Engineering Officers, 8x Engineering Crew
1x Medical Officers, 0x Medical Crew
8x Marine Officers, 245x Marines
6x Service Crew

Description:
Designed to transport and support a full company of mercenary troops and their equipment, the Eiaikeiar (Usually translated as Hero) Class Intruder Transport carries 63 troops in cabins and bunk rooms, plus 190 individuals in low berths for a total of 253. Generally one platoon, the officers of the other platoons, the Company HQ, including medics and some mechanics are kept awake. The balance are transported in Low Berths.
The ship lost a point of agility and some armor. A guesstimate (Or more accurately a WAG.) for the shrine of heros was employed. Magazine capacity is 1200 missiles, normally carrying 1000 HE and 200 Nuclear. (20 shots with HE and 4 Nukes, (Total not per battery.) Assuming that Missile bays fire 50 missiles per shot and they are the same missiles as in the missile racks.)
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
OK, How do you figure that? A Starship or Small Craft in CT/MT and T20 carries vehicles at their Volume as expressed in DTons. So it is external volume plus whatever space is needed for access.
I'm not talking about vehicle volume, I'm talking about starship volume. For starships, it's clear that displacement is equal to the amount of stuff inside the hull.

How do you figure this one?
Based on how the Astrin for GT was designed. It has modest armor (it can be penetrated by an FGMP), unimpressive agility, and a relatively light weapon. It's a reasonable argument that the Astrin in GT is a different vehicle than the Astrin in CT; a version designed for high intensity combat would either be significantly bigger or carry significantly fewer people.
So if I understand what you are saying here, an Astrin is equivalent to approximately 9 or 10 tons, in terms of what it takes to carry it aboard a starship. Or close to the same size as CT/MT/T20 puts the vehicle as far as how many you can carry on a starship.
Nah. The GT Astrin is about 2 dtons basic volume, and takes up about 4 dtons on board a ship.
 
Shadowdragon:

Sometimes less is more. Dropping a Jump number is a concept rarely seen but quite valid here. Gives you a lot of space to play with. Nice low-tech solution too. Two of those, maybe one optimised with fighters, should handle the demands quite easily.


======================================


BetterThanLife:


The Aslan ship is interesting. Streamlined at 3000dtons and quite fast. And I guess the warriors are properly motivated once they come out of the Freezers. ;)

Good artillery for a craft of her size, should be able to quickly finish of any Corsair.

A bit short on vehicles but that is a difficult to solve problem given the larger size in CT-style systems.


=======================

Oz:

The four Ships are interesting variants around a common theme. A bit costly compared to a single ship since price goes up due to the large number of J-Drives but an inspiration for my Barge/Tender concept.

I guess a typical unit would be two-three Gladius, one-two Hedgecutters and a Fairbairn to command it. The Saber is either for StarMercs only or makes the sevens ship among wealth units.

What's the Techlevel used?

=============================

BetterThanLife:

I have borrowed the idea of a 50dton landing craft, it makes a decend compromise between dropping single crafts and dropping all units.

The fighter shows that the jump between TL12/13 and TL14 is an impressiv one. Can't get that profile in acceleration and guns at a lower TL

==========================

Liam:

Thanks for the TOE vehicle numbers. I am a "Cold War" guy and automatically think Platoon = 4
 
So, and another take at the Merc cruiser. This one has the same "size" as the Tender but is a "single" starship. By dropping the planetary landing capability, she can fit the complete unit:


TL 12/13 Bidenhander Class Merc Cruiser

Named after the large Warsword of the famous Landsknechts the Bidenhander is one of the largest mercenary starships around. Designed to carry a large number of troops it is capabel of transporting and maintaining a reenforced company and it's assault airwing during long-term and assault operations. The ship is not landing capabel but streamlined enough to skim for fuel.

The ship has a lightly armored hull with massive stealth systems build in. A long range EW-suit and rapid-fire laser and plasma batteries complete the defensive setup of the ship.

Offensive duty is handled by eight triple missile turrets and sixteen heavy lasers supported by sensor drohnes and enhanced long-range sensor systems. The energy system is beefed up massively to allow for a massivly increased Rate of Fire for all energy weapons.

Planetary landings are left to the ships complement of four heavy shuttles (each transporting a platoon of vehicles) supported by twelfe light fighters. The availabel shuttle capacity will take two trips to ferry down the complete vehicle complement. While the Grav-Vehicles are capabel of self-landing, the ships layout makes space operations rather difficult, requiring the evacuation of the hangar bay to be used.

To coordinate this operations, a command bridge and a traffic control system are installed that can also handle the Speeder operations while a large briefing space allows for detailed mission planning. For the day to day operations a number of offices are provided for the officers and their staff.

The Vehicles are stored in four large hangar bays grouped around the shuttle bay and a number of large maintenance bays and repair shops as well as spare parts storage and ammo bays. Maintenance is normaly done by a joint effort of the ships crew and the mercenary unit with extra crew capacity for a small maintenance team build in

Crew quarters are spartan with the soldiers and spaceman sharing bunkrooms, NCO's having double-occupancy rooms and officers getting single rooms. To relieve some of the crowding three large mess halls (Officer, NCO, Enlisted), fitness rooms and office spaces are installed, leaving the quarter solely for sleep. Since the craft is used for mercenary operations, a large sickbay and a battery of cryo tubes are installed to allow the ship to act as a MASH unit

The 50dton Dagger class assault shuttles used by the ship share the massivly stealthed hull of the mothercraft and have EW and decoy capacities of their own. Each is armed with a space-rated plasma cannon and a number of planetary attack missiles and anti-infantry lasers to fight it's way to the dropzone and attack enemy armor and installations during unloading. Loaded Vehicles are carried ready to launch with the crew inside during the Dagger's decend and commonly launch without the assault boat touching the ground.

The fighters are commonly IRAMDA 10dton fighters with some units using the FILIBUSTER multi-mission fighters due to their ground attack/support capabilities and a stealthing better matched to the other units. Some of the more wealth units even use the modern RAMPART light fighters. The maneuver drive is oversized to allow for the transport of these havier vehicles while still allowing a 3g accelleration.

</font>
  • Size: 5000dtons</font>
  • Empty Weight: 14342to / Loaded: 16740to bei 3g</font>
  • Engine: Jump-3 (13h to refine fuel), M=3 loaded (3.5 empty)</font>
  • Crew: 32 Command and Control, 8 Jump Drive, 20 Maneuver Drive, 10 Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 24 Turret Gunners, 298 Mercenary Personal, 24 Internal Security/Service. Total Crew 420</font>
  • Cost: 1484MCr Without Vehicles</font>
  • Cargo: 315dton/1575to</font>
  • Weapon storage:
    </font>
    • </font>
    • 10dton for Tactical Missiles</font>
    • 24dton for Space Combat Missiles</font>
    • 20dton Infanteyweapons</font>
  • Vehicle Storage:
    </font>
    • 120dton of vehicle hangars, including maintenance equipment in four bays</font>
    • 320dtons of Spacedock for 4 Shuttles and 12 Fighters</font>
    </font>
  • Weapons:
    </font>
    • 8 Turret (DR 200) with two 430 Mj Plasma Gun, RoF 1/15 (4 Batteries of 2)</font>
    • 16 Turret (DR 200) with three 250 Mj Std Laser, RoF 1/15 (8 batteries of 2)</font>
    • 8 Turret (DR 200) with three 250mm Missile Rack [77] (4 batteries of 2)</font>
    • 16 Turret (DR 200) with one 810 Mj Hv Laser, RoF 1/15 (8 batteries of 2)</font>
    </font>
  • Heavy internal security, 6 small AP-Turrets (Small Lasers)</font>
The vehicle loadout is the basic unit above plus the two extensions (actually: twelve Combat Speeders, not six)


Known Variants

The use of spacedocks and hangars allow for a great deal of flexibility. This has led to the Flameberg variant, best represented by the IRMS Lydia. She is outfitted for pure escort and space combat duties, replacing the assault shuttles and ground vehicles with a combination of 20dton Gigs and 30dton Heimdahl EW/Sensor plattforms as well as a long range passiv sensor array. The reduced crew-size is used to give the crew less cramped quarters and add some more storage and recreational areas to make up for the long escort missions. Lydia is well known for her daring fight against a Solomanie 8000dton heavy destroyer during the SolRim war where her captain used her stealth capabilities and an asteroid field to get the drop on the larger warship and cripple her during the first exchange, later boarding her.


The other extrem is the Claymore class as represented by IRMS Richard Sharps. She drops the space fighter complement for an additional company (twelfe vehicles) of tanks and twin drop capsule launchers with the remaining space taken up by additional quarters for the drop troopers and tankers. The Plasma guns are commonly replaced by additional missile batteries, and all batteries upgraded to 500mm heavy missiles if possible, for ground support/bombardment. With her additional tanks stored in a spacedock, these vehicles can be launched and recovered without evacuating the hangar bay. The IRMS Richard Sharps is famous for an assault operation against a pirat/privateer operated Class-D port at Badayoz during the SolRim war. Sneaking in system she inserted troopers on the opposite side of the planet and assaulted the port a few days later in a coordinated attack between pre-positioned snipers, massiv orbital bombardment and a combat landing.


==================

Dropping one of the two missions I can get her down to 3500dtons.
 
Liam:

Thanks for the TOE vehicle numbers. I am a "Cold War" guy and automatically think Platoon = 4
You're most welcome. I was trying to fit the word-concept "platoon" of mech/tracked vehicle count for you based on what this mudmerc unit was built on by TL.

The Higher tech (at least By Striker I & II) you go, the fewer vehicles you need (ala a TL-14/ TL10 Intrepid*-Tank platoon of 3x tanks of the RC Marine Corps & Oriflamme units).

* Former Imperial Trepida-class TL14 relic tanks, retrofitted with 9cm to 12cm hypervelocity cannon due to the paucity of the TL-14 Fusion gun's parts.
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:


BetterThanLife:


The Aslan ship is interesting. Streamlined at 3000dtons and quite fast. And I guess the warriors are properly motivated once they come out of the Freezers. ;)

Good artillery for a craft of her size, should be able to quickly finish of any Corsair.

A bit short on vehicles but that is a difficult to solve problem given the larger size in CT-style systems.
That is why I didn't post it in the first place. The ship also has no way to deploy the unit in a hurry aside from landing either, which, IMHO, for Merc operations, is a bad idea as the ship is too expensive.


BetterThanLife:

I have borrowed the idea of a 50dton landing craft, it makes a decend compromise between dropping single crafts and dropping all units.

The fighter shows that the jump between TL12/13 and TL14 is an impressiv one. Can't get that profile in acceleration and guns at a lower TL

The armor changes drastically at TL14 (Especially for a ship that size where every little bit makes a difference.) everything else is at TL13. You think that is scary, try them at TL15.
The power output doubles for the same size and fuel. (I managed to add a small stateroom on a 15 ton fighter.) Also remember these are T20 craft, which REQUIRE a small craft bridge.



Liam:

Thanks for the TOE vehicle numbers. I am a "Cold War" guy and automatically think Platoon = 4
It also depends on whose TO&E you are looking at and the trust the overall designers of the military have in their NCO Corps. For example a Soviet unit was, during the Cold war, 3 squads per platoon, and 3 platoons per company. The Soviet Army never considered maneuvering anything much smaller than a platoon as their NCO Corps, especially at the Platoon Level, was conscripts (generally with a 6 month "NCO course") on the same 2 year tour as the rest of the soldiers. And Platoon leaders generally didn't have enough experience to do much independent thinking.

Making units smaller is generally not the result of technology, but an attempt to do more with less. The Army is smaller than it was so you have to make units smaller to have it in as many places and carry out the same missions.

An attack helicopter company used to be 7 attack helicopters and 3 observation helicopters. In Desert Storm that was an Attack Helicopter Battalion. (From what I understand it is now 5 Attack helicopters and 2 observation helicopters.)
 
BTL wrote:It also depends on whose TO&E you are looking at and the trust the overall designers of the military have in their NCO Corps. For example a Soviet unit was, during the Cold war, 3 squads per platoon, and 3 platoons per company. The Soviet Army never considered maneuvering anything much smaller than a platoon as their NCO Corps, especially at the Platoon Level, was conscripts (generally with a 6 month "NCO course") on the same 2 year tour as the rest of the soldiers. And Platoon leaders generally didn't have enough experience to do much independent thinking.
IIRC, we were discussing a Traveller Striker mercenary unit, not the USSR's Red Army..my apologies.

Making units smaller is generally not the result of technology, but an attempt to do more with less. The Army is smaller than it was so you have to make units smaller to have it in as many places and carry out the same missions.
"Generally" you say..meaning it could also be true "most of the time", or "Some of the time"?

Traveller military vehicles and weaponry, in mirroring the effects of greater firepower with fewer men with higher technology I counter argue, does reflect this principle.

Your point, of "doing-more-with-less" while valid, still is "generally" not the only reason either ;)

An attack helicopter company used to be 7 attack helicopters and 3 observation helicopters. In Desert Storm that was an Attack Helicopter Battalion. (From what I understand it is now 5 Attack helicopters and 2 observation helicopters.)
That's fine a "do more with less" example.

The five tracked vehicle platoon went out to the 4-vehicle tracked platoon (tanks and APC's). One of the reasons was the 5th track/ tank had the wireless radio in it and was the "command vehicle".
With better commo in every vehicle, this vehicle became superfluous. Now the Russki's liked that concept, as a command and control measure and kept the C2 version as MTOE for a while.

Speaking of Russki's & C2 control..it Didn't do 'em much good in Panjishir valley in the 80's. Those extra antennae just made it easier to spot and kill the leader's vehicles.
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Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
=======================

Oz:

The four Ships are interesting variants around a common theme. A bit costly compared to a single ship since price goes up due to the large number of J-Drives but an inspiration for my Barge/Tender concept.

I guess a typical unit would be two-three Gladius, one-two Hedgecutters and a Fairbairn to command it. The Saber is either for StarMercs only or makes the sevens ship among wealth units.

What's the Techlevel used?

=============================
Since my ships are straight LBB2 designs, TL varies depending on the size of drive, running from TL 13 to TL 15.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> BTL wrote:It also depends on whose TO&E you are looking at and the trust the overall designers of the military have in their NCO Corps. For example a Soviet unit was, during the Cold war, 3 squads per platoon, and 3 platoons per company. The Soviet Army never considered maneuvering anything much smaller than a platoon as their NCO Corps, especially at the Platoon Level, was conscripts (generally with a 6 month "NCO course") on the same 2 year tour as the rest of the soldiers. And Platoon leaders generally didn't have enough experience to do much independent thinking.
IIRC, we were discussing a Traveller Striker mercenary unit, not the USSR's Red Army..my apologies.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually I was attempting to point out that other factors besides more firepower or higher tech have an effect on the TO&E. Each organization shown in official canon is based on something. Most is based on US history, but it isn't the only game in town.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Making units smaller is generally not the result of technology, but an attempt to do more with less. The Army is smaller than it was so you have to make units smaller to have it in as many places and carry out the same missions.
"Generally" you say..meaning it could also be true "most of the time", or "Some of the time"?

Traveller military vehicles and weaponry, in mirroring the effects of greater firepower with fewer men with higher technology I counter argue, does reflect this principle.

Your point, of "doing-more-with-less" while valid, still is "generally" not the only reason either ;)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />An attack helicopter company used to be 7 attack helicopters and 3 observation helicopters. In Desert Storm that was an Attack Helicopter Battalion. (From what I understand it is now 5 Attack helicopters and 2 observation helicopters.)
That's fine a "do more with less" example.

The five tracked vehicle platoon went out to the 4-vehicle tracked platoon (tanks and APC's). One of the reasons was the 5th track/ tank had the wireless radio in it and was the "command vehicle".
With better commo in every vehicle, this vehicle became superfluous. Now the Russki's liked that concept, as a command and control measure and kept the C2 version as MTOE for a while.

Speaking of Russki's & C2 control..it Didn't do 'em much good in Panjishir valley in the 80's. Those extra antennae just made it easier to spot and kill the leader's vehicles.
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</font>[/QUOTE]
</font>[/QUOTE]Well when you generalize you run into problems. Some of the changes are indeed due to technology, some of them have to do with the vehicle used to carry the troops not being built to spec, however the majority of them have no real tactical basis but are done because the numbers don't add up so you have to downsize your units to cover the same mission. The Helicopter change from a Company to a Battalion was more to provide more command slots for Lieutenant Colonels than to designate a unit based on firepower.
That and to keep the Aircav units on the books with the chronic shortage of pilots.
 
Speaking of striker units...these mudmercs have no air support!

What about the Air-Squadron Mercenary Striker units detailed in MT's-COACC? say as a follow on unit to the one you're looking at MB?

Using a 10kton bulk freighter transport, and 95dton standard cargo shuttles to planet starport (1), the mercenary used a mixed TL9-TL6 amount of equipemnt and saw as a merc unit a high amount (see also, lucrative)of work.

The above method means the transport isn't put to risk by landing, the 95dt shuttle is! At least until transport can land and HAT's can be utilized

Imperial Merc Air Sqdn MTOE:(2)

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13x Command (CO, Air XO, Ground XO, FLT Surgeon (medical***), Chief Engineer, MTCE Officer, Supply Officer, Ordinance Officer, 5x FLT leaders)

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13x Staff (1x Service personnel/Command element)

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(44*) 42x Pilots/Aircrew (by Aircraft listed (2) below):

** 2x TL6 Nuremberg-Light Attack Aircraft (Crew 2, disp. 5dtons)-CO* & Air XO's*-plus 2 aircrewmen

**12x TL6 Nuremberg-Light Attack Aircraft (4x Attack Flights of 3x LAA's/ Crew 2, disp. 5dtons each.) total 24x aircrewmen. (3)

**3x TL8 Anchorage-Heavy Air transports (1x Transport Flight of 3x HAT's/ crew 4 each; disp = 200dtons each/ cargo cap 20dtons each) total 12x aircrewmen. (4)

**4x TL6 Cheyenne-Jet Fighters (1x FTR Flight of 3x FTRs, crew 1 each; disp 11dtons each), 4x aircrewmen total.(5)

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Ground Security Company (ADA, AAA, Troops/ 100x personnel total)

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MTCE Detachment (3x mechanics minimum per aircraft, for a total of x 63 personnel)

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Ordinance Detachment (1x personnel per Aircraft, total of x21).

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Supply detachment (4x personnel per transport Craft, +1 per detachment), total of x20 personnel.

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Medical Detachment (1 per 20x personnel = 12x medics/ ground ambulance crews (4x total vehicles, crew 3 each***).

Grand total of 264x personnel, or a 1x "light battalion"--(3-5x 100 man companies).

3x such squadrons, make a mercenary Air Wing.

1x such Sqdn needs

+Officer module quarters (2 per) 4dtons x7 (+28dt)
+Others qtrs modules (4 per-bunks) 4dtons x63 (+252dt)
+Control Communication-Command Intel (C3I) Tower module(8 dtons) x1 (+8dt)
+ Hangar Module (assembly required)--(?dt) 1x per Sqdn. for MTCE section's use.
+1 infirmary module (+8dt)
+1 Medical Office module (+4 dtn)

+600dtns for its 3x Transport aircraft
+44dtns for 4x FTR aircraft
+70dtns for 14x LA aircraft.
+20dtns for 4x gr veh. ambulances
just to get started... not counting a bulldozer or two (5dtn, TL6) for the engineer section, the Fuel trucks..and so on..

Three such squadrons might fit in a 10kton freighter..

would one of these designs handle a single sqdn merc outfit?

lemme know..


----------------------

(1) page 77.
(2) page 14.
(3) page 24.
(4) page 61
(5) page 15.

 
Looking and adding the above, I'm getting over 1035dtons of cargo space for the SHTUFF to support 1x squadron, never mind passenger space.

Oh, and this does presume a doctrine they land on a freindly starport before moving out with the transports to establish an E-class airbase for themselves.

which leads me to another salient point of mercenaries in the 3I.

Costs assumed by the unit, and those by thems that hire them.

Worlds, or nations (on balkanized worlds) will always get more bang for their buck/ credit. Not all merc units "own" a starship--but if world A, wants Merc unit B to come do job X for them, that boils down into the negotiations or the terms of "the ticket".

does nation A have a ship? Y/N
Does merc unit B have a ship Y/N
If No to both, then odds are likely a third party's vessel is hired/ leased for the haulage to that world, which is a canon means of getting a starship's use, is it not?

especially when starships cost so much, and unit overhead is high. (Rule of Thumb: the bigger the outfit hired, the more it costs to maintain).
 
Air Support:

</font>
  • There is a limitet amount of Air Support build into the second unit. The 5000dton craft carries 12 light attack speeders acting as attack choppers/SU-25 Frogfoots/Alpha Jet.</font>
  • During a landing the shuttles and fighters can act as some air-cover. Since the shuttles will need an escort on any contested planet, this will be very limited (only during shuttle missions)</font>
From the ships shown here Shadowdragons Shield class with 400dton + 2x100dton shuttle comes close to the necessary transport volume.

Mercenary transport

I can see these options on Merc Transport here:

</font>
  • Units with long setup times like an airwing can easily depend on commercial transport and maybe an escort ship for the inbound run. These units can't combat-drop into a hot landing zone anyway and will more likely be hired for garrison or anti-insurgent operations.</font>
  • The same goes for merc units specialising in low-intensity conflicts and training. An outfit like Falkenbergs Legion on Sparta or during the first Merc Ops, both garrison/security jobs with long setup times, can do without space transport</font>
  • For units that offer hot landings I can see a combination of ships used. An Assault unit with fast, small warships getting a beachhead and base perimeter and a large transport (with escorts) that comes in when the first job is done and lands three waves of personal:
    </font>
    • </font>
    • A unit of security troops and AA batteries</font>
    • A unit of combat engineers that set up the airport and defences</font>
    • When all is ready the aircraft are dropped in</font>

There might very well be a number of frighters or even companies like Oberlindes with it's well-armed freighters, that offer Mercenary Transport for a higher fee. So the Mercs might own the ship(s) for the initial wave but transport their air units on conventional hired ships.
 
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