MGT Fuel

[Jame]

Silliest...argument...ever.

Arguing over how much power an, as yet, non-workable science would make and multiple, as yet, non-existent sciences require.

I can't believe I read this whole thread. Either take the rules and use them or spend the time make up your own. o:

I'm sorry you didn't like my rules, but this is just a game. So no need to take it so seriously.

And think of it this way: I had actually taken your advice to spend the time to make up my own rule. The rule is now a part of S&P, and I even got paid for it. So your advice worked, just a lot earlier than you expected!

 

[atpollard]

Except that you're ignoring that the ship has to eliminate X power in waste heat. All work ends up as waste heat. Thermodynamics again.
And we know how much of the gravitic drive's energy is converted into off ship work (basic physics, but non-linear). Whatever isn't converted directly into work is waste heat.

So, you're arguing X!=X.

Unless the Power plant is primarily thermal - generating heat which is converted into energy (electricity is assumed, but lasers could certainly run on a thermal power source and who knows what energy source tears the fabric of time-space or alters conservation of momentum). Thermocouples are one real-world technology that converts heat to electricity, who knows what 'handwavium' science converts 'energy' into 'gravity', but it could certainly be a thermocouple-like heat to gravity reaction.

Then any heat source, like a fission reactor or internal combustion engine or coal-fired furnace could power a MD and JD. Conversion of heat to electricity is assumed by most players (who care at all about the power), but not explicitly stated that I recall. Nothing in Engineering on the deckplans looks like a typical copper coil, spinning magnet electric generator to me ... and there should be lots of them if you are going to assume a standard heat-turbine-shaft-electricity power generation technology.

Heat is only a problem if you choose to accept other violations of fundamental laws and slavisly adhere to thermodynamics - rejecting any possible thermodynamic handwavium (like a heat-gravity thermocouple).

[As an aside, if you are going to strictly adhere to thermodynamics, then I am pretty sure that using the LH2 as a heat sink will not work since it has too little capacity to absorb the sun-like temperatures without still needing ships made of large blocks of super-insulating unobtanium. It would be like dropping ice cubes to cool an erupting volcano enough to touch ... you ain't got enough ice!]

 

[aramis]

That energy, Arthur, still either results in measurable work or waste heat. And given the laws of blackbody radiation, scout couriers should be IR beacons... at least when below 10PSL... which most ships will be.

 

[atpollard]

That energy, Arthur, still either results in measurable work or waste heat.

I choose measurable work with a 25 degree surface temperature from the miniscule waste heat. Engines are so much better with no moving parts.

And given the laws of blackbody radiation, scout couriers should be IR beacons... at least when below 10PSL... which most ships will be.

"Heat is only a problem if you choose to accept other violations of fundamental laws and slavisly adhere to thermodynamics - rejecting any possible thermodynamic handwavium (like a heat-gravity thermocouple)."

 

[aramis]

I choose measurable work with a 25 degree surface temperature from the miniscule waste heat. Engines are so much better with no moving parts.

"Heat is only a problem if you choose to accept other violations of fundamental laws and slavisly adhere to thermodynamics - rejecting any possible thermodynamic handwavium (like a heat-gravity thermocouple)."

The work is measurable, and given the fuel rates, not accounted for.

Nice try, but it's bordering on "Psionic artifact cooling" levels of Bullshittium. Your "solution" is as far out there as Mike's approach to Virus.

 

[atpollard]

Nice try, but it's bordering on "Psionic artifact cooling" levels of Bullshittium. Your "solution" is as far out there as Mike's approach to Virus.

You are really that concerned about black-body radiation and yet, the utter violation of Conservation of Momentum inherent in any reactionless drive doesn't bother you at all? How curious.

Just for the record, do you have a thermodynamic solution that doesn't involve 'unobtainum' (to deal with fusion temperatures), plus rewriting the rules on sensors and detection, plus redesigning ships with square kilometers of radiators, plus changing the fuel rates in the ship design rules?

Anything less just moves the "Psionic artifact cooling " to another part of the ship.

 

[atpollard]

The Reactionless MD already involves some form of anti-gravity/anti-graviton that causes the mass of your ship to repel the mass of the planet, so I prefer to lump handwaving 'bullshitisms' together. If you prefer your handwaving bullshitisms separate, then:

1. Fusion generates heat.

2. Advanced Thermocouples convert heat to electricity.

3. MD/JD convert electricity to magic.

4. An advanced heat pump collects waste heat and channels it back to the Fusion Chamber or the Advanced Thermocouples.

Fusion is real (Fusion reactors are handwavium).
Thermocouples are real, so Advanced Thermocouples are handwavium not bullshitium.
MD/JD are bullshitium, but the problems are not thermodynamic, so you should be happy.
Heat pumps are real, so Advanced Heat Pumps are handwavium not bullshitium.

As long as the system is less than 100% efficient (perpetual motion, anyone?) then the laws of thermodynamics are bent but not broken. Using Carnot’s theorem with the temperature of the core of the sun (10^7 K) and space (4 K) yields a maximum efficiency of 99.999996 percent. As technology improves and temperatures reach the CERN LHN 14 trillion electron volts (10^17 K), then maximum efficiency increases to 99.9999999999999996 percent. At the matter-antimatter TL, the maximum efficiency increases to 99.9999999999999999999999999999996 percent.

So, how much energy is needed to accelerate a 100 dT (1000 metric ton ?) scout at 2G for 1 week?
How much waste heat does our black body need to radiate?
Is that Thermodynamic enough for you?

Initial assumptions often place a thumb on the scale, pre-determining the results.
If you open up to the possibility of different assumptions, then you can achieve different results.

 

[aramis]

2G for 2 weeks is 1209600 sec at 20m/s/s...

about 4.5MJ per kg. Radiator city time.

Moreover, we know that drives don't get better efficiency at lower rating (can't save fuel by stepping it down) and it has t be able to dump that energy load... SO....

It has to be able to shed that much when not underway. 4.5MJ per second per kilogram of mass. Welcome to melt-city.

 

[BytePro]

Heat?... handwave that away (pun intended) - what inquiring minds want to know - Where did all the hydrogen go!

Fusion changes it, but doesn't make all that matter go away!

(Guess the ships could be trailing a lot of Helium...)

Originally the rules were obviously written to support the game aspects desired - refueling hassles, jump and trip limits, indeterminate arrival times, etc. - not any kind of real science. I love the game, but my suspenders of dis-belief have to stretch a long ways to make any of its 'science' actually 'work' out. The original LBBs made no mention of fusion, just power plants and L-Hyd as fuel, IIRC (all I ever used - in large part because I didn't have to get distracted by game writers attempting to play engineer/scientists ) Also, M-Drive fuel was explicitly 'inconsequential'.

BTW: Gravitics mean that the standard equations for work (energy) need not apply - if one changes the 'mass', the results change.

 

[robject]

Thermal storage coils, high tech style. Part of the life support maintenance cost.

Jumpspace is a waste heat dumping ground.

Radiators are so super efficient that the rules don't have to deal with them.

The tradeoff of fusion power plants smaller than ten thousand tons is that they are both supercool and terribly inefficient.

What other explanations can we think of?

 

[cryingblackoil]

I'm sorry you didn't like my rules, but this is just a game. So no need to take it so seriously.

And think of it this way: I had actually taken your advice to spend the time to make up my own rule. The rule is now a part of S&P, and I even got paid for it. So your advice worked, just a lot earlier than you expected!

Dislike your rules? Didn't mean to imply that, I don't even know what your rules are, friend. And congratulations! I just meant to express that by the time I get around to power consumption in a supertech environment with oodles of unknown scientific principles to muddy the waters my suspension of disbelief is already stretched to the point where that could well be one of the most plausible points. :rofl:

Heat?... handwave that away (pun intended) - what inquiring minds want to know - Where did all the hydrogen go!

Fusion changes it, but doesn't make all that matter go away!

(Guess the ships could be trailing a lot of Helium...)

Hah, now there is a question I like! =)

 

[ArcaneFlash]

Fuel Consumption Mod from T4 Starships

Sorry for the resurrection but I found this thread and it got me thinking.

In T4, I got some interesting results.

Fusion plants:
TL 09-12, FC: 0.6% of Plant Size for 1 Week.
TL 13-14, FC: 0.6% of Plant Size for 1 Week. "Mass": 25% less
TL 15, FC: 1.2% of Plant Size. "Mass": 50% less.
TL 16, FC: 1.3% of Plant Size. "Mass": 75% less.

Heplar: FC: 2.5x Engine Size/hr. (probably *per G)

Any thoughts?

--AF

 

[Jame]

Sorry for the resurrection but I found this thread and it got me thinking.

In T4, I got some interesting results.

Fusion plants:
TL 09-12, FC: 0.6% of Plant Size for 1 Week.
TL 13-14, FC: 0.6% of Plant Size for 1 Week. "Mass": 25% less
TL 15, FC: 1.2% of Plant Size. "Mass": 50% less.
TL 16, FC: 1.3% of Plant Size. "Mass": 75% less.

Heplar: FC: 2.5x Engine Size/hr. (probably *per G)

Any thoughts?

--AF

That looks confusing especially since I have no context (haven't looked at T4's ship design method more than once, and that years ago).

 

[christopher.boote]

Except that you're ignoring that the ship has to eliminate X power in waste heat. All work ends up as waste heat.

... actually, not quite
It COULD be eliminated as sound and light as well
We know there is some support for 'jump flash' (SOM) but what about saying the waste is dissipated as massive amounts of sonic energy?

In TU space, no-one can hear you scream - because it's so bloody loud!

 

[ArcaneFlash]

What I did was look at F,F,&S II, I looked at the individual Fusion power plant list. I looked at how many MW a single unit could produce and how much fuel it consumed for the year. Then I looked at what percentage of fuel was needed per week of use. I took the density to see how much weight was saved.

--AF

 

[DangerousThing]

Heat?... handwave that away (pun intended) - what inquiring minds want to know - Where did all the hydrogen go!

Fusion changes it, but doesn't make all that matter go away!

(Guess the ships could be trailing a lot of Helium...)

I think we can take your two questions and make an answer: the helium is superheated with the waste heat and ejected from the ship. And at least on Navy ships it *has* to be ejected because the Navy is much to dignified to have its officers speak with high squeaky voices.

Now, if I had a sense of humor, which I don't, I would suggest something like the following:

The helium is fused all the way up to iron, which is used by the ship's robots to make the ship larger. When it gets large enough, the ship's robots make Type S ships and toss them to the Scouts.

See, isn't it better that I don't have a sense of humor?
-
Jay