Non OTU: Military Ships and Crewing

[BytePro]

Hi,

I guess that since it says that they "average" 2 dtons, they all won't necessarily be the same size and that some may be larger than 2 dtons and some may be smaller than 2 dtons.

Yes. Put another way, the rules state a stateroom takes up 4 dTons - including those other related volumes - and can accommodate up to 2 humans.

As for my third point, from the stuff I've looked at for the USCG 378ft cutter I still have my concerns especially for ships that may be on independent deployments (like has been suggested for some of the Azhanti High Lightning class). for situations like this, the need to sustain life support in the event of damage etc would seem to suggest to me the need for back up oxygen and fresh water etc.

Assuming good recycling, the 'backup' volume of water and O2 for a single human would be - a little less than the volume of a human.

So not much in relation to even 2 dTons. [Noting the volume of space occupied is much greater, but then O2 and H2O concentrations in atmo are small percentages...]

Likewise, food is recyclable - starships being a closed system, after-all.

Of course, depending on TL and cultural assumptions, the degree of efficiency would surely vary. Nothing prevents, nor even suggests, that fleets wouldn't have supply and repair tenders, not to mention even recreation (and prison, psych, etc.) vessels as normal parts of their complement - depending on mission and durations...

 

[BytePro]

I'd be interested in peoples' experience of little seagoing cabin cruisers since - other than Apollo and suchlike, where we're talking about people trained to endure that setting - that's about as close to something you can't leave for a week that I can think of in the modern world.

Prison? :devil:

 

[PFVA63]

Yes. Put another way, the rules state a stateroom takes up 4 dTons - including those other related volumes - and can accommodate up to 2 humans.

Hi, I agree.

Assuming good recycling, the 'backup' volume of water and O2 for a single human would be - a little less than the volume of a human.

In general though you need to provide breathable atmosphere for all the enclosed habitable volume of a ship. And, while I suppose that some areas can be sealed off, damage can cause a loss of atmosphere and/or machinery suggesting the need for added redundancy etc.

Likewise, food is recyclable - starships being a closed system, after-all.

Hi, that's the first I've heard of that. Is this listed in canon anywhere as I could maybe see this at possibly some high tech level, but definitely not at all space/star faring tech levels.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Likewise, food is recyclable - starships being a closed system, after-all.

So, you think they would eat that poo-beef that Japanese scientists have come up with? I'm thinking..... no. :nonono: Maybe if you combine this thread with the penal battalion thread, it might work.......... o:

 

[BytePro]

Got news for you - the Earth is a relatively closed biosphere - and there is a very good chance you will be eating someone's (recycled) crap today! :rofl:

In the U.S. and England, at least, wasterwater sludge is used extensively for fertilizer ('biosolids' is the cute new name). While on paper there are restrictions for 'edible crops' they are basically unenforceable and laughable in the extreme. Historically, China extensively used raw sewage on crops ... fact is the practice is very common around the world.

As to 'first I've heard of that' and 'poo-beef' - said food was 'recyclable', not that it necessarily was, nor to what extent.

However, no reason to suspect that the extremely rich fertilizing elements of human waste would not be used to support crops grown in fleets. With excellent sanitation and without industrial waste - sadly, a real concern with RW usage today - the practice could be common on large scale operations. Even more relevant, food synthesized from raw materials is a rather common Sci-Fi trope. And... human sewage is very rich in the required chemicals. Like in the RW, where most consumers are blissfully ignorant (sic), its not like the troops really have to know where their food comes from... :smirk:

BTW: as to canon this thread is tagged 'Non-OTU', but I doubt there is any real useful canon on food stores aboard spaceships...

 

[Rynak]

Food could be recyclable if you used the feces as a fertilizer in a hydroponic section. Then you would either need sunlight or grow lamps to prevent it from being a completely closed system (the grow lamps would burn fuel that would need to be replaced).

 

[Dagrill]

Hi Hal,

I've designed a TL14 version of a clasic Traveller ship the Fer de Lance DE
using Mongoose rules:
Imperial Navy Fer De Lance Class Destroyer Escort
Ship: Third Imperium Class: Fer De Lance Type: Escort
Tech Level: 14 Price
Tons (MCr)
TL14 HULL Streamlined, Hull 25 0 137.5
1,000 ton Self Sealing Structure 25 0 12.5
heat and radiation shielding 0 600
Armour Bonded superdense (12 points v.radiation) 6 points 50 56
Jump Drive P Jump 4 75 140
Maneuvre Drive X Thrust 6 43 88
Power Plant X Power 6 67 176
solar panels (4x fuel duration) 6.7 0.67
Fuel 442 tons = one J4 & 8 weeks operations 442 0
Bridge holographic controls, armoured bulkeads 22 6.45
Computer Model 6 Rating 30 0 20
Electronics: TL13 CM suite, enh.signal proccessg, 9 14
Weapons: 50t bay x2 TL14 reduced size Meson Gun 62 200
TL10 accrate Particle Beam barbette x2 10 20
triple turret(x4): triple TL12 accurate, high yield Beam Laser 4 28
triple turret(x2): Missile Rack x2/ sandcaster 2 2.75
100 sand barrels, 96 missiles (0.06) 13 0
Meson Screen x1 20 60
12 staterooms 48 6
8 barracks 16 0.8
armoury(x2) 4 1
Fuel Scoops & 8 ton processor (160 tons per day) 8 0.4
Ships Locker, repair drones 10 2
Probe Drones(5), 2 Recon Drones 21 34.5
Full 40t Hanger 52 10.4
up to 40 tons of small craft 0 0
Software: Maneuvre, Auto Repair 1, Evade 1, Fire Control 4, 0 14
Cargo Library, Jump Control 4 15 0.4
500 tons 1,477.233 MCr in Quantity 999.7 1,631.37
Crew: Captain(O4), XO(O3), Pilot(O2), Navigator(O2), Gunnery Officer(O2) 9 marines
5 Officers 5 Engineers, 10 Gunners
15 crew
8 marines

 

[PFVA63]

Food could be recyclable if you used the feces as a fertilizer in a hydroponic section. Then you would either need sunlight or grow lamps to prevent it from being a completely closed system (the grow lamps would burn fuel that would need to be replaced).

Hi,

It seems like that would take up an awful lot of space though, and might be something more for use in large space habtitats (especially those in constant oribt around a star) rather than a warship.

 

[BytePro]

Hydroponics in my (non-military) starships are built into walls [since the early '80s ], serviced by automation, and dual function as light sources and humidity control. Provides a certain ambiance to corridors, not to mention the natural (and augmented) filtering plants provide.

Military ships mostly have such under the floors.

Hydroponics only augment the food supplies - synth, dehyd and vacpac being the bulk for the non-paying/low-rate.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

In thinking a bit more about Traveller type warships a thought that crosses my mind is that, while replensihmment, support and repair ships can work to maintain and keep these ships operational, there are certain specifics about the Traveller "rules" that might impact just what the systems on a warship may end up looking like.

Specifically, one thought that crosses my mind regards damaged ships making a jump out of system to break off contact with an enemy. In such a situation it would seem that the ship would likely be "on its own" for about a week (while in jump) and would have to try and deal with any damage to its systems for that time span.

As such, this raises some questions on how this might affect the ship's life support systems configuration, including atmosphere, food and water etc.

My initial thoughts are maybe that a warship's life support systems might be set up a bit like a modern warship's electrical system, with some degree of redundancy and disperion to help the ship absorb damage while still maintaining service (even if perhaps at a reduced rate). In addition to this it might also be possible that "emergency" devices (such as futuristic equivalents to "oxygen generating candles" and such) may also be a part of the ships Damage Control Locker, etc.

As such, similar to a modern electrical plant, maybe a Traveller warship would have multiple "atmospheric scrubber/recycler" plants located in a couple different locations, so that a single attack would hopefully have a lesser chance of taking them all out, but cross-connected and sized so that the "normal operating load" would not necessarily require all plants on line at one time.

In the event that one or more of the plants is damaged, hopefully then that system could be isolated and the other systems cross-connected in to provide adequate output, and if necessary, if the remaining plants are insufficient to provide total capacity, perhaps parts of the ship could be secured to allow the remaining plants to at least meet some level of "minimal sustainment" capacity or something like that.

In addition, if it is found, after entering jump space for instance, that the remaining undamaged plant may not be sufficient to fully support the entire crew for the expected duration of the jump perhaps some form of cannisters can be supplied in the DC Locker that either produce oxygen or scrub C02 through a chemical reaction to provide a last ditch emergency backup to try and get the ship & crew at least through jump, etc.

For Fresh Water, I can see that some water will likely be recyclable but I'd also suspect that some may get lost or end up being too contaminated to try and recycle so I'd expect that the water systems may also have some extra margin or reserves built in. And, I'd guess that maybe the degree of margin or reserve might be a function of trying to provide sustainance levels of water during a jump for a ship with a damaged plant perhaps.

As for food, I'd guess that at a minimum some emergency rations may also be kept onboard.

Anyway, I just wanted to share some of my thoughts on things that might impact the amount of space a crew might need onboard.

PF

 

[BytePro]

Certainly. This is one of the very first things I gave a good deal of thought to when I became a Traveller Ref...

Military or civilian - distributed redundancy is a must in space environs. The level would depend on TL, but it is a basic tenant of space travel.

Essential LS - atmo regulation and water - is gonna be top priority and nearly impervious to failure, even cascade. Other, lower priority systems and resources (food) will be at the mercy of economics and law of averages. Despite secondary and tertiary backup systems and standard spares, systems will fail - and no ship can stay a functional island indefinitely.

IMTU, LS is built into the walls (atmo gases, water, thermal regulation, diffusion filtering, etc.) - the hydroponics mentioned above is just a special sub-case. Exceptions are for large spaces (holds and the like) - which need to be augmented by additional dedicated systems. Waste reclamation is also dedicated (and a fun point of failure IMTU!).

 

[Fritz_Brown]

and there is a very good chance you will be eating someone's (recycled) crap today! :rofl:

Dude! Big difference between eating food grown with poo, and eating food that is poo. o: But, yeah, if you meant turning it into fertilizer, then, yes, you can call it a partially closed system. (As to Earth being a closed system, it is a HUGE closed system, such that it appears non-closed to the members of the biome.) Even at that, a ship is going to require stores, since a lot of what we eat does not come out as waste, but gets turned into energy.

its not like the troops really have to know where their food comes from... :smirk:

That only happens in the EVIL empire, IMTU! :smirk: The problem is that *someone* on board will have to know. How do you write their job title? Protein Re-engineering Specialist? *shudder*

//lots of good stuff//

I have always built in those redundancies. Not so much in a 200dTon trader, but definitely in warships. (It's actually one of the things that distinguishes a trader from a corsair, IMO - the corsair is built to withstand combat.) The ultimate backups, of course, in the scenario you pose, are the vacc suit and emergency low berths. I would also include, however, bottled air and personal scrubbers - though those would probably be more for passengers in a short-term situation.

Hydroponics in my (non-military) starships are built into walls [since the early '80s ], serviced by automation, and dual function as light sources and humidity control.

What happens when the ship gets holed and that section goes to vacuum? (Though I think plants definitely have a place in atmo recycling and management!)

 

[BytePro]

Dude! Big difference between eating food grown with poo, and eating food that is poo. o:

That bit about eating crap was (mostly) meant in jest!

But the truth is that it is not uncommon to actually eat feces... albeit in very minute quantities. Consider public restrooms and public soda dispensers (shudder), for example. The truth is there is generally handling of food by several people and a very real probability of some limited degree of contamination. Lets not even talk about handling currency...

Using Fertilizer - deriving from feces - its really the same difference. There is breakdown and filtering occurring. Actually, I'd have more concern about the former given pathogens and not to mention industrial contamination - as opposed to a process that extracts chemicals for direct synthesis and exterminates all pathogens and filters out all exotic metals and man-made contaminants (a TL assumption, of course - in such fiction this could also be done bio-organically as well).

That only happens in the EVIL empire, IMTU! :smirk: The problem is that *someone* on board will have to know. How do you write their job title? Protein Re-engineering Specialist? *shudder*

Cook. :devil:

What happens when the ship gets holed and that section goes to vacuum? (Though I think plants definitely have a place in atmo recycling and management!)

Plants die - in that section. If you're holed, there are more immediate problems.

Plants are a sustainable part of LS - not a fundamental requirement - they would regrow quickly enough...
Plants can be regrown -

 

[warwizard]

I was thinking about my serenity alcoves for the valani in my campaign to have their own vacc suits. When the ships are prepared for battle all the potted plants are stuffed into the alcove and the pressure system activated sealing the plants away from vaccuum.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

There you go, warwizard. And, it helps to add that definite alien-weirdness to things. "What? That? You *don't* protect the plants on your ship?"