Minor Human races

[AndreaV]

49?!? 49 minor human races mention in official publications and not disallowed for conflict and/or inanity? (I'm thinking specifically of the three throwaway references to minor human races in the Spinward Marches which is a) contrary to a canonical statement in Darrians and b) three really inane descriptions).

So what are you going to do with the canonical limit of 46 minor and three major human races known to the Imperium?

I believe from discussions the 49 Minor/Major human limit has been dropped (written off as an an inaccurate in-game comment by some Imperial scientist).

 

[rancke]

I believe from discussions the 49 Minor/Major human limit has been dropped (written off as an an inaccurate in-game comment by some Imperial scientist).

I wonder just how inaccurate any Imperial scientist can be about such a figure. After all, the criterion for being a minor human race is having been transported to a different world by the Ancients, which is bound to leave some evidence in most cases. So, sure, you can have mistakes like the thought-to-be-extinct-but-turns-out-they're-not Loeskalth. And I guess a scientist riding a hobby-horse might accept a spurious claim like that of the Traltar or the other two added by BtC. But on the whole, it should be fairly easy to check if a human population had a homeworld where they'd been around for the past 300,000 years. If they have, they're a minor human race; if they haven't, they're not. So there's going to be a limit and it's going to be fairly accurate. If it pleases Marc to change that limit to 80 or 200 or whatever he likes, that's his business. But there's going to be one. Limit, that is.

And, of course, referees deserve to know the truth. Imperial scientists may not be able to prove or disprove the Traltar claim, but Word of God can easily do so, and IMO ought to do so.


Hans

 

[DonM]

Don, is your most current data spreadsheet for these posted somewhere?

I'll go see, but I thought that was still posted here...

Found it, made the T5 thread sticky, here: http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32269

 

[DonM]

I believe from discussions the 49 Minor/Major human limit has been dropped (written off as an an inaccurate in-game comment by some Imperial scientist).

First, the T5 Sophont Review was simply to note the materials so Marc could make decisions about what gets kept and what becomes non-canonical.

Second, Marc specifically said to ignore all previous number limits, and just list all such materials for consideration.

You'll see a Notes tab; that's where I note items that Marc has to make decisions about. Some decisions have been made, for example, the Mongoose Luriani book specifically replaces some T20 material.

Finally, remember that the Traveller Wiki is NOT considered a canonical source; please do not refer to it in discussions of the T5SS or the T5 Sophont Review. I need published references (and JTAS Online does count).

 

[GypsyComet]

Finally, remember that the Traveller Wiki is NOT considered a canonical source; please do not refer to it in discussions of the T5SS or the T5 Sophont Review. I need published references (and JTAS Online does count).

And while the Wiki does often have those published sources indicated, they don't always say what the wiki authors thought they said.

(No, I don't have a specific example that I remember the name of, but I do recall looking up a referenced article a couple years ago and wondering if the Wiki writer had actually read it.)

 

[maksimsmelchak]

And while the Wiki does often have those published sources indicated, they don't always say what the wiki authors thought they said.

(No, I don't have a specific example that I remember the name of, but I do recall looking up a referenced article a couple years ago and wondering if the Wiki writer had actually read it.)

By all means, if you spot something that is wrong or needs correcting, Jim, let someone know so that it can be corrected...

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Patron Zero]

Uncertain this will be considered canon but there was an interesting Traveller article in The Dragon magazine back in the 80s about Dwarves in space, essentially it posed a sub-species of humans bred-raised under high gravity and low light.

I think the gist of said piece suggested such were minors or prospectors, multi-generational families living in the asteroid belts accounting for the divergence from 'mainline' humans.

 

[aramis]

Uncertain this will be considered canon but there was an interesting Traveller article in The Dragon magazine back in the 80s about Dwarves in space, essentially it posed a sub-species of humans bred-raised under high gravity and low light.

I think the gist of said piece suggested such were minors or prospectors, multi-generational families living in the asteroid belts accounting for the divergence from 'mainline' humans.

It's not canon. It's interesting...

 

[Condottiere]

40K genocided theirs; unlike Orcs and Elves, they don't seem to be race that adapts well to scifi.

There are Ewoks, but I don't think there would be much outcry if their planet experienced an extinction event.

 

[GypsyComet]

The fantasy Dwarf stereotype is addressed in the OTU by two different Minor Human Races, but neither is really that close to the Tolkien/Gygax formula. And that is a good thing.

 

[aramis]

The fantasy Dwarf stereotype is addressed in the OTU by two different Minor Human Races, but neither is really that close to the Tolkien/Gygax formula. And that is a good thing.

Geonee and ???

 

[GypsyComet]

I should probably have put an "allegedly" in that statement.

The Darmine are the other MHR that gets mentioned in this context. I'm not sure I see it myself, but I think an earlier draft (than what is currently in the Wiki) had them another 15 to 30cm shorter.

(Edit: Mongoose forum discussion http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=76014&p=814771&hilit=darmine#p814771 from a year ago. Noteworty because it cites the same wiki entry I just looked at, which was changed just a few weeks ago.)

 

[rancke]

The fantasy Dwarf stereotype is addressed in the OTU by two different Minor Human Races, but neither is really that close to the Tolkien/Gygax formula. And that is a good thing.

Fantasy dwarf?!? The dwarf part is plain enough -- human beings significantly shorter than baseline humans. But where's the fantasy part of the stereotype? Geonee don't go around in armor, toting Space Axes (tm) forged from special metals mined from the surface of dead stars, and quaffing beer. Being short no more make them fantasy Dwarfs than having pointy ears make the Darrians fantasy elves.


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

The Geonee are, on the other hand, dismissive of other's claims regarding history, touchy and secretive about their culture, patriarchal to a fault, treasure hunters convinced that the things they find are merely returning to their rightful owners (ie. the Geonee), and strongly grounded in mechanical aptitude and technology.

If you want to *play* a space Dwarf, as opposed to just looking like one, the Geonee are strong contenders.

 

[Orr]

The Geonee are, on the other hand, dismissive of other's claims regarding history, touchy and secretive about their culture, patriarchal to a fault, treasure hunters convinced that the things they find are merely returning to their rightful owners (ie. the Geonee), and strongly grounded in mechanical aptitude and technology.

Interesting, I've never looked at the Geonee that way. Thanks for providing that fascinating prospective!

Two questions if I may. Were the Geonee covered in the GURPS human minor races book? Wasn't there a DPG adventure centered on a Geonee attempting to use an Ancient artifact for political or social gains?

 

[inexorabletash]

If you want to *play* a space Dwarf, as opposed to just looking like one, the Geonee are strong contenders.

Thanks for transcribing my unvoiced thoughts so perfectly.

(Pointed ears and magical tech don't make the Darrians space elves. It's the creation story that's a blatant pastiche of The Silmarillion that does.)

 

[GypsyComet]

Were the Geonee covered in the GURPS human minor races book? Wasn't there a DPG adventure centered on a Geonee attempting to use an Ancient artifact for political or social gains?

Yes on both counts.

Pointed ears and magical tech don't make the Darrians space elves. It's the creation story that's a blatant pastiche of The Silmarillion that does.

The Darrians started as Elves and grew into Vulcans. They have a bit of the "living amongst our past glories and mistakes" Elf vibe, too. There is no real need to play that angle up very strongly in play (not many Elf players do in fantasy, IME) since the setting material makes it so clear.

 

[rancke]

The Geonee are, on the other hand, dismissive of other's claims regarding history, touchy and secretive about their culture, patriarchal to a fault, treasure hunters convinced that the things they find are merely returning to their rightful owners (ie. the Geonee), and strongly grounded in mechanical aptitude and technology.

If you want to *play* a space Dwarf, as opposed to just looking like one, the Geonee are strong contenders.

I must say that you have more of a point than I thought. Enough to make me wonder if the original writer deliberately modelled the Geonee on fantasy dwarves.

On a purely personal note, my first reaction was "who *wants* to play a Space Dwarf in Traveller?" It seems to me that deliberate introduction of fantasy tropes in a Traveller setting is detrimental to suspension of disbelief by highlighting that 'this is just make-believe'. True, Traveller IS just make-believe, but I think you get a better game experience if you try very hard not to think about it. That's part of the reason I dislike talk of Space Elves, Space Dwarfs, and Space Pirate Amazon Ninja Catgirls. In the OTU, that is.

But all that is a matter of opinion. You're right, IF you want to play a Space Dwarf, the Geonee are strong contenders.

But personally I'm not going to, nor am I going to start thinking of the Geonee as Space Dwarfs.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Thanks for transcribing my unvoiced thoughts so perfectly.

(Pointed ears and magical tech don't make the Darrians space elves. It's the creation story that's a blatant pastiche of The Silmarillion that does.)

The Darrians started as Elves and grew into Vulcans. They have a bit of the "living amongst our past glories and mistakes" Elf vibe, too. There is no real need to play that angle up very strongly in play (not many Elf players do in fantasy, IME) since the setting material makes it so clear.

What blatant pastiche? What about the setting material makes it so plain that the Darrians started as elves?

I think the two of you are completely and utterly wrong in your opinions on this subject.


Hans

 

[kilemall]

I must say that you have more of a point than I thought. Enough to make me wonder if the original writer deliberately modelled the Geonee on fantasy dwarves.

On a purely personal note, my first reaction was "who *wants* to play a Space Dwarf in Traveller?" It seems to me that deliberate introduction of fantasy tropes in a Traveller setting is detrimental to suspension of disbelief by highlighting that 'this is just make-believe'. True, Traveller IS just make-believe, but I think you get a better game experience if you try very hard not to think about it. That's part of the reason I dislike talk of Space Elves, Space Dwarfs, and Space Pirate Amazon Ninja Catgirls. In the OTU, that is.

But all that is a matter of opinion. You're right, IF you want to play a Space Dwarf, the Geonee are strong contenders.

But personally I'm not going to, nor am I going to start thinking of the Geonee as Space Dwarfs.


Hans

We play with Space Wolves, Space Lions, and Space Cows/Centaurs. A few elves and dwarves fit right in.