Missing skills

[McPerth]

Given that an air/raft costs almost 50x as much as a ground car, that might be reasonable ...

You still haven't refuted the cost issue. Or in your universe there are no middle class and lower people?

Most of the vehicles shown in the equipement lists are thought as exploration/wilderness vehicles, not the utilitarian one that most people has. After all a grav floater costs about 10% of a ground car, and my guess is that there are a full range of vehicles in between.

In MT (the only version I know that allowed you tyo design nearly any vehicle), an air raft costed more or less the same than in MgT, yet you could design a grav utilitarian for about 5-10 kCr, and a grav bike for less than this amount.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

while the lowered infrastructure costs may make it cheaper for grav vechicles in total, it doesn't change the fact that the consumer doesn't directly pay those infrastructure costs (he gets taxed for them instead), whereas he pays all the extra cost of a grav vehicle.

Grav vehicles are, like for like, significantly more expensive than ground vehicles. Going with the discussion elsewhere on the board about the aerage wages being ~10,000Cr/year, then a MgT core rulebook Air/raft is WAY out of the price range for most people (275 Kcr). I don't know what sort of prices the mongoose vehicle design rules throw out, but assuming it's roughly simmilar, then actually owning a grav car would not be like having a family car. It's like owning a luxury sports car. A car that likey costs as much as your house, and would be as much of an investment.

But, as rankce points out, in canon, thier supposed to be be standard and other forms of transport have fallen by the wayside along with horse drawn carts.

The only way i can reconcile those two elements is that private grav vehicles are just somewhat rare, and most people rely on public transport (grav busses, maglev trains, etc) or company cars of some sort. a delivery business' vans would really be the most expensive asset they own.

 

[rancke]

I've realized that I'm defending a position that I'm not really very interested in. Although I do think that wheeled vehicles would be rare on a TL12 world, I don't believe in it strongly enough to object to the notion that they're common. What I objected to was not so much being able to get Driver (wheeled) on Regina as to not being able to get Flyer (grav).

That said, by all means let's explore the question of wheeled cars on TL12 worlds.

while the lowered infrastructure costs may make it cheaper for grav vechicles in total, it doesn't change the fact that the consumer doesn't directly pay those infrastructure costs (he gets taxed for them instead), whereas he pays all the extra cost of a grav vehicle.

That's how it works in 21st Century Denmark and the US and many other countries, because there are lots of voters with cars. But on a TL12 world things may be different. First deduct the people who can afford a grav vehicle (which is going to be an influential group). Then deduct the people who can't even afford a car. Perhaps the remainder won't be able to persuade the rest to be taxed for roadbuilding. So a car-owner will have to pay his fair share of the road network. Now the real cost of owning a car is not 1/50th of the cost of owning a grav vehicle. So perhaps instead of 1000 people buying a car each and paying to build roads, they instead buy 100 grav vehicles on a time-share basis. And perhaps economics of scale will distort the relative costs even more.

Grav vehicles are, like for like, significantly more expensive than ground vehicles. Going with the discussion elsewhere on the board about the average wages being ~10,000Cr/year...

According to Striker, the per capita income of Regina is Cr25,600.

...then a MgT core rulebook Air/raft is WAY out of the price range for most people (275 Kcr).

What is the financing method? Maintenance? Expected lifetime?

I don't know what sort of prices the mongoose vehicle design rules throw out, but assuming it's roughly simmilar, then actually owning a grav car would not be like having a family car. It's like owning a luxury sports car. A car that likely costs as much as your house, and would be as much of an investment.

Granted, a time-share scheme or a really good public transportation system seems much likelier than single ownerships.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

After all, MT:Referee's Companion says that land, sea, and air transportation merge with the invention of grav vehicles, so apparently there is one.

MT:Referee's Companion? MT? Is this a mongoose publication?

Anyways, to throw a wrench in the discussion, I've a world that I'm using in the setting of my current game and it is detailed in the Mongoose Reft Sector book. The world is A5629A9-C. The info in the book says the arid world has large widely spread out cities connected by high speed Maglev rail systems.

Grav transport is available for the wealthy or those on government business, but most citizens do not venture out of their home Arcology and rely on the excellent internal public transportation system.

So no matter how detailed one tries to make rules to decide what type of transportation skill one might have as a home world skill, it still may not fit every situation.

So rich folk carouse but folk from any other type of world are stuck up introverts?

You can learn to survive in a desert but not a jungle?

I have a high pop high tech world where a character decided to be from one of the poor, low tech nomad tribes that live in the harsh environment between the cities....

 

[rancke]

MT:Referee's Companion? MT? Is this a mongoose publication?

MT = MegaTraveller.

So rich folk carouse but folk from any other type of world are stuck up introverts?

You can learn to survive in a desert but not a jungle?

I've been making a number of Reginan characters recently and the example of Flyer (grav) not being available as a homeworld skill was fresh in my mind. Just because I didn't mention other examples doesn't mean I think there aren't any.

The table of homeworld skills has room for three skills per trade classification. One day, when I have the time and the inclination, I may work out a suggestion for a more nuanced set of homeworld skills.

If I feel like it.

In the meantime, I feel perfectly entitled to toss off a stray criticism or two if the occasion occur.


Hans

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I've realized that I'm defending a position that I'm not really very interested in. Although I do think that wheeled vehicles would be rare on a TL12 world, I don't believe in it strongly enough to object to the notion that they're common. What I objected to was not so much being able to get Driver (wheeled) on Regina as to not being able to get Flyer (grav).

That said, by all means let's explore the question of wheeled cars on TL12 worlds.


That's how it works in 21st Century Denmark and the US and many other countries, because there are lots of voters with cars. But on a TL12 world things may be different. First deduct the people who can afford a grav vehicle (which is going to be an influential group). Then deduct the people who can't even afford a car. Perhaps the remainder won't be able to persuade the rest to be taxed for roadbuilding. So a car-owner will have to pay his fair share of the road network. Now the real cost of owning a car is not 1/50th of the cost of owning a grav vehicle. So perhaps of 1000 people buying a car each and paying to build roads, they instead buy 100 grav vehicles on a time-share basis. And perhaps economics of scale will distort the relative costs even more.

fair enough. however, i must point out that thier are plently of people on earth who live in countries like the US, UK or denmark who cannot drive. it's not unreasonable to say that it's not a automatic skill for someone of that background.

another arguement is that some governments subsidise certian activities enjoyed by a subset of the populance. Some sports, for example, or or the arts, Healthcare, or education. Citizens don't have a right to "opt out" of paying for these: if they want to live thier and gain the benefits the state provides (cheap healthcare, for example), then they have to help pay for those things that benefit others (government loans to students, for example).

According to Striker, the per capita income of Regina is Cr25,600.


What is the financing method? Maintenance? Expected lifetime?


Granted, a time-share scheme or a really good public transportation system seems much likelier than single ownerships.


Hans

*Shrug*

I didn't have striker. so i couldn't do the math myself, but the point still stands: If grav vehicles have price tags in a simmilar range to most houses, then owning one is going to be much rarer than in a society where (like our US/UK/DK one) cars are more like 5-10% the price of a house.

I'm not suggesting that no one will have personal air/rafts, just that a lot less will, and that it will likey be a treasured object passed on down and kept for decades, like people treat houses, rather than us with cars changing hands after a copule of years.

 

[rancke]

fair enough. however, i must point out that thier are plently of people on earth who live in countries like the US, UK or denmark who cannot drive. it's not unreasonable to say that it's not a automatic skill for someone of that background.

MgT homeworld skills are not automatic. They are automatically available to choose from. In addition to that there's a list of 15 skills that may be chosen no matter where you were born (in other words, they are available on every homeworld regardless of its trade classifications). From the pool of available skills (the aforementioned 15 plus one per trade classification of homeworld) the player selects 3+<Edu modifier> skills at level 0.

It's not just people on Rich worlds that can learn to Carouse. Everyone can, because it's part of the basic list and living on a rich world does not increase the available choices one single solitary bit. Coms, Computer, Drive, Engineer, Medic, and the four sciences are all available on all worlds. Including low-tech ones.


Hans

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

ok, then let me rephrase "automatic" to "sterotypical", in the sense that "everyone knows that people form <planet> know how to fly grav vehicles!"

 

[pendragonman]

No Striker in Mongoose. No MT stuff either. since this is the Mongoose version thread, please use Mongoose sources to support your positions.

If this were in the Fleet thread, that would be different. We aren't

 

[McPerth]

No Striker in Mongoose. No MT stuff either. since this is the Mongoose version thread, please use Mongoose sources to support your positions.

Agreed. The grav floater costs in MgT 500 Cr. So we can find grav vehicles (using flyer:grav skill) from 500 Cr on, the air raft being 275000. As said above, I guess low priced utilitarian will be quite common, as will the skill to use them.

Honest question, is there a vehicle design system in MgT?

 

[pendragonman]

Agreed. The grav floater costs in MgT 500 Cr. So we can find grav vehicles (using flyer:grav skill) from 500 Cr on, the air raft being 275000. As said above, I guess low pricde utilitarian will be quite common, as will the skill to use them.

Honest question, is there a vehicle design system in MgT?

Yes-ish. In the Vehicles book.

I am not familiar with this floater you speak of. Is it better than a Tenser's Floating Disc?

 

[McPerth]

Yes-ish. In the Vehicles book.

TY. As you can guess for my question, I have no access to it. though it could be interesting to see how cheap can a grav car be built.

I am not familiar with this floater you speak of. Is it better than a Tenser's Floating Disc?

IIRC Tenser's Floating Disk is AD&D, and that is farther from MgT than the versions you complained about :devil:...

Also, again IIRC tenser's Floating Disk could not carry the user, while the grav floater may (and little else). It's described in MgT:CB page 103-104, where vehicles are described

 

[Brandon C]

I can understand every single MOS not being covered in a simple set of tables that covers one career and three specialties.

I'm not asking for every single MOS be covered, but I think it is fair to ask why Zero G is on the Free Trader table but not Medic or Gunnery.

The big liners probably recruit a practicing doctor or medical school graduate and don't train from within.

However, by RAW, the doctor has a -1 to join the merchants (previous career) while an 18 year old off the street doesn't.

Average crewing for medic on a ship is one per 120 passengers. So, the medic is not required on the small merchants who might want to save the cost and stateroom space, and again, those small merchants are probably not going to train their medics.

I'm not asking for Greg House, just someone with Medic-1.

I don't see small merchants somehow providing quality training for every possible skill that might be needed.

Then we differ greatly on this; I see Gunner and Medic as required positions on a merchants ship.

Learn by doing - events.

Unsatisfactory. Also, IIRC, in CT Book 1 a merchant could learn Gunner and Medical.

Or likely hiring people that have had other careers. Seek out the ex Army support medic, the Merchant marine that used to work a massive hauler.

Again, -1 for these people to join the merchants for jobs you say the merchants shouldn't train for.

Lastly, for some skills note that one could get by with the use of expert programs or other technologies.

Logically, then, why should crew bother learning skills if the computer and robots are running the ship?

 

[Brandon C]

Please have fun playing the way you want. Including criticizing the rules if that's how you have fun.

I have house rules for virtually every rpg I've run. I'm hardly picking on MgT in this respect.

 

[whulorigan]

fair enough. however, i must point out that thier are plently of people on earth who live in countries like the US, UK or denmark who cannot drive. it's not unreasonable to say that it's not a automatic skill for someone of that background.

One consideration might be that on worlds with sufficient TL to have Grav Vehicles, such craft would likely also have autopilots tied to a traffic-control grid. It may be that average people who use grav vehicles (i.e. not explorers or military, etc) never need to learn how to fly one, as the traffic-control grid and on-board computer respond to voice command to take them wherever they want to go. In fact, it may actually be illegal on such worlds to manually pilot a vehicle.

 

[Condottiere]

Legacies and fairly heirlooms, assuming quality workmanship and no planned obsolescence.

 

[rancke]

No Striker in Mongoose. No MT stuff either. since this is the Mongoose version thread, please use Mongoose sources to support your positions.

Unless contradicted by MgT material, I consider previously published information about the setting to be perfectly legitimate evidence.

And if Mongoose deliberately changes something and I feel that doing so was a bad idea, I feel fully entitled to grouse about that.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

TY. As you can guess for my question, I have no access to it. though it could be interesting to see how cheap can a grav car be built.



IIRC Tenser's Floating Disk is AD&D, and that is farther from MgT than the versions you complained about :devil:...

Also, again IIRC tenser's Floating Disk could not carry the user, while the grav floater may (and little else). It's described in MgT:CB page 103-104, where vehicles are described

I was not using AD&D to support an argument. Which is different than certain others.

And thanks for the reference point. I will look it up.

As to vehicle construction, I haven't looked at it close enough to tell yet. However, the between semester time is upon us so I should have time to look at these things.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Logically, then, why should crew bother learning skills if the computer and robots are running the ship?

Happy to discuss but I believe this is a discussion for a whole new thread if you wish to start it.

However, by RAW, the doctor has a -1 to join the merchants (previous career)

Not sure why you point this out?

For during chargen: The very lowest possible negative DM hardly makes it impossible or even unlikely to me.

For outside of chargen: The -1DM does not apply and to me it seams realistic for merchants, especial small ones, to hire qualified people rather than train them. Isn't this pretty much the premiss of the game from day one? A Navy, Scout, Merchant, and Army character joining up and pooling their abilities to operate a ship and go off trading and adventuring.

I'm not asking for Greg House, just someone with Medic-1.

If that's the case, then I would think you would not want the skill on a table where it is just as likely to gain medical skill as broker or steward or pilot or some other more merchanty skill? Perhaps drop Social Science(Any) on the Advanced Education table and put medic there?

Also, IIRC, in CT Book 1 a merchant could learn Gunner and Medical.

Gunner is in the tables for merchants. As I've explained before, in Mongoose chargen merchants and other careers have other ways of gaining skills besides the tables. Ways that were not possible in CT but that are still a part of chargen. Ways that guarantee getting those skills that a career really should provide vs a 1 in 6 random chance.

Another choice is to just use the CT tables if you like them better. Change Bribery to Persuade. Change Navigation to Astrogation. I believe that's all it take to make it compatible with Mongoose chargen. Oh, you'd need a house rule note for Vehicle: choose one specialization from either Drive or Flyer or Seafarer.

Logically

However, by RAW

It's getting confusing bouncing around between what is actually in the rules and what we personally think is realistic.

I point out a rule, like manning requirements, and you say it isn't the way it should be.
I point out a concept in reality, like hiring someone with skill instead of training from within, and you point out game mechanics like a -1DM.

Sorry, but could you please clarify what it is that you want from this discussion? I'm only trying to be helpful so if the purpose is just to have a debate, then I'd like out.

 

[McPerth]

As for doctors in merchants, I guess few doctors (medic 2+) will serve aboard commercial ships (excepting the larger ones), so I feel not so uneasy about only being attainable through events/skill packages.

As for gunners, I guess most free traders will not have bery good ones, mostly relying on fire control programs for such defense (after all, many are not even armed, and those that are expect not to use its weapons), so more or less the same applies here.

In fact, I expect most such tramp traders not to have dedicated gunners, but at most some crewmember (e,g, stewards) cross trained to it. MOS skills should, IMHO, represent the experience in the dedicated posts in the ship, while those emergency or seccondary positions in the ship would better be treated in the event achieved skills.

More or less the same applies to automated positions, that I only expect in such "not usually used" positions, while more standard positions (pilot, engineer, etc...) requiring people to fill them. See that the navigator position, quite critical in every jump, but used only before jumping, is expected to be covered by an expert program if the ship runs with minimal crew, so, again IMHO, gunner position (expected to be used even less than navigator) is another good position to be left to automated fire control...