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Mixed Turrets/Batteries in HG

yes & no. IMHO it is part of the OTU already, I'm gobsmacked that you guys aren't reading the rulebook.

Matt, you are the one trying to creat an ambiguity where none exists. You have also been pushing the argument that organizing weapons into batteries is somehow "optional", despite the fact that the combat rules speak EXCLUSIVELY in terms of using batteries.

So enough lecturing about "reading the rules".
 
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As a Ref dealing with the whole mixed turret/multiple gunner issue, I always had trouble visualizing how that would work without resembling the Keystone Cops. Imagine for a moment that a ‘turret’ is a Quad 50 mount (four 50 caliber machine guns that are all aimed together for anyone unfamiliar with it). One gunner aims all 4 weapons at the same enemy vehicle and shoots it – no problems so far (all laser turret).

In the spirit of Mixed Turrets, we replace two of the machine guns with flare guns. Now our gunner can fire a flare to illuminate the field at night and then shoot the enemy truck with the two machine guns – again it seems to make sense (mixed laser and sand).

Now we replace the flare guns with 30 mm cannon. Since the cannon and machine gun have different ranges and rates of fire, the gunner can aim and shoot EITHER weapon at a target, but not both (since one would be improperly aimed and miss if fired all at once). A very fast gunner might conceivably be able to aim and shoot an armored vehicle with the 30 mm, and follow up by re-aiming and shooting some nearby infantrymen with the 50 caliber MGs. It seems a little busy, but still generally (if just barely) passes the ‘laugh test’ (missile and laser).

Impressed with the performance of our mixed 30 mm cannon/50 cal MG “turret/mount” we decide to make it better by assigning two gunners – one to aim and fire the 30mm and another to fire the 50 cal. Fortunately we have automated the controls and have encountered a target rich environment. Gunner one targets armored vehicles east of your position with the 30 mm (missiles) and gunner two targets CCC vehicles west of your position with the 50 cal (lasers). Since the targeting system must share ‘time’ between the two sets of targets it alternates between the two sets of instructions. The result is a turret that continuously spins alternating which weapon fires as it comes to bear on a designated target – KEYSTONE COPS TIME.

The argument that a triple turret is three individual turrets violates the 1 turret per 100 ton rule, since there are obviously 3 turrets per ‘hardpoint’ and moving them further apart would allow 3 turrets on a 100 ton ship. The whole point of a triple turret is that one gunner can aim all three weapons at the same target – just like the quad 50.
 
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The argument that a triple turret is three individual turrets violates the 1 turret per 100 ton rule, since there are obviously 3 turrets per ‘hardpoint’ and moving them further apart would allow 3 turrets on a 100 ton ship. The whole point of a triple turret is that one gunner can aim all three weapons at the same target – just like the quad 50.

All good points. Nobody tho' is suggesting the '3 turrets per hardpoint' thing. Up to 3 weapon mounts per hardpoint, yes. The quad .50 has four weapon mounts and is very nasty fired as a battery from one 'hardpoint'.

Now disengage the linking mechanism and you have 4 individual .50's. The gunner is now capable of firing individual mounts at different targets over a twenty minute time span. Why would you do this? Because a quad .50 in most circumstances is overkill and chews through ammo damn quick.

Is it possible to fire a quad .50 one mount at a time? Don't know, but within HG its mute as batteries must be determined during construction. Regardless, I'm not sure the .50 makes a good example either way.
 
Matt, you are the one trying to creat an ambiguity where none exists. You have also been pushing the argument that organizing weapons into batteries is somehow "optional", despite the fact that the combat rules speak EXCLUSIVELY in terms of using batteries.

Agree with the batteries observation, they are optional and single weapons get a USP rating and are dealt with as batteries. Battery sizes are optional to and may comprise 1 to 30 weapons, but you know this already.

Regards the point we were discussing "Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into batteries" - I take it from your tone that you are unable to answer the observations in my last reply to you and are resorting to frustration?

My frustration is that so far you have been the only contrary opinion to this point that has actually referred to the relevent rule in the rulebook. I may disagree with your view that the opening referance to weapon mounts is a mistake by the authors, but at least I know you have a copy of HG handy and the intellect to form & articulate an opinion based on rules text.
 
Actually, I'll change my position slightly.

"Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into batteries"

This sentence isn't precluding single weapon batteries, just giving the option of grouping multiple weapons into batteries. This sentance has depth!

Yeah, I know, nobody else is interested in the rules...
 
Actually, I'll change my position slightly.

"Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into batteries"

This sentence isn't precluding single weapon batteries, just giving the option of grouping multiple weapons into batteries. This sentance has depth!

Yeah, I know, nobody else is interested in the rules...

Uh, where in HG do you see any sentence that allows individual weapons to be formed into batteries (except for weapons in mixed turrets)?

I'd also note that every armed ship in Supplement 9 Fighting Ships organizes its batteries by turret. None of them have single weapon batteries like you're advocating (unless those weapons are mounted in single turrets).
 
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Uh, where in HG do you see any sentence that allows individual weapons to be formed into batteries (except for weapons in mixed turrets)?

That is the sentance. I was going to point you to the Turret Weapons tables, but stopped.

"Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into batteries"

The grouping is optional. Going back to our venerable fighter, this sentence states I may group my two fusion guns into a battery. For obvious reasons I would choose not to. The two single weapons are still batteries and get a USP.

On canon vehicles, there are numerous examples where canon craft can do stuff that isn't in the rules (300tn Gazelles with 4 hardpoints for example) and also examples of inefficient designs that wouldn't stand up in a TCS combat.
 
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All good points. Nobody tho' is suggesting the '3 turrets per hardpoint' thing. Up to 3 weapon mounts per hardpoint, yes. The quad .50 has four weapon mounts and is very nasty fired as a battery from one 'hardpoint'.

Actually, you are suggesting that a triple turret is three individual turrets, you just don’t realize it. The point (from a ‘logic/visualization’ perspective rather than a ‘what the rules say’ perspective) is that three weapons in a single turret acting as a ‘battery’ MUST shoot at the same target in a combat round. Any attempt to shoot at 3 different targets in the same combat round from the same triple turret requires either:

1) each weapon is individually aimed and functions (de-facto) as if is was a single turret (3 turrets on 1 hardpoint).

or

2) each weapon is able to shoot at it’s target for only 1/3 of a combat round.


If we assume that the first option (each weapon is individually aimed) is true, then your proposal to place 3 weapons in a turret and allowing each to function as a battery of 1 would function as 3 turrets on 1 hardpoint. In this case, each ‘battery’ requires a gunner to aim it. This violates the letter and spirit of the turret rules since each ship now has 3 turrets per 100 tons. If it functions like a turret, then any argument that “it is not really a turret, because …” is nothing but semantics.

Now disengage the linking mechanism and you have 4 individual .50's. The gunner is now capable of firing individual mounts at different targets over a twenty minute time span. Why would you do this? Because a quad .50 in most circumstances is overkill and chews through ammo damn quick.

This quote assumes that the second option (each weapon fires only part of the time) is the case. The problem with this interpretation is that there is no practical difference between one weapon and three. Using the MG as an example, a gunner who chooses to shoot one MG for 6-7 minutes, then change to a second MG and shoot it for another 6-7 minutes, then grab a third MG and shoot it for 6-7 minutes, would be identical to a gunner who shoots a single MG for the full 20 minutes. [Ignore barrel heating and ammo supply since neither is a limitation in HG.]

Just to make the point crystal clear: a gunner who chooses to aim one 250 MW laser at a target for 6-7 minutes, then aims a second 250 MW laser at a target for 6-7 minutes, then aims a third 250 MW laser at a target for 6-7 minutes, would be identical to a gunner who aims a single 250 MW laser at a target for the full 20 minutes. A gunner who chooses to aim and fire one missile launcher at a target in 6-7 minutes, then aims and fires a second missile launcher at a target in 6-7 minutes, then aims and fires a third missile launcher at a target in 6-7 minutes, would be identical to a gunner who aims and fires single missile launcher at a target three times in the full 20 minutes.

If a missile launcher or laser can aim, hit and damage a target in 6-7 minutes, then a single turret should be able to fire three times in 20 minutes at up to 3 different targets. If a missile launcher or laser requires the full 20 minutes to aim, hit and damage a target, then a mixed triple turret with three batteries should only be able to fire one of it’s weapons at one target in 20 minutes (or each weapon should be only 1/3 as effective).

Regardless, I'm not sure the .50 makes a good example either way.

Actually, the .50 MG makes a fair analogy for a laser. The MG fires a stream of bullets from an extensive belt of ammo that destroys a target through the cumulative damage of many hits over time. The Laser fires a stream of photons from an extensive capacitor of energy that destroys a target through the cumulative damage of energy absorbed over time.
 
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What did I say?

You're responding to Jeff and suddenly I'm in the mix somehow. Huh?
I'm very sorry, Bill. Jeff's remark was in response to something I'd written in response to one of your posts, and somehow I thought it was you responding. I was rather puzzled that you'd write something like that, but instead of drawing the correct conclusion, I just thought you had been in a bad mood. Please accept my apology. I should have known better.


Abjectly,
Hans
 
I'm very sorry, Bill. Jeff's remark was in response to something I'd written in response to one of your posts, and somehow I thought it was you responding. I was rather puzzled that you'd write something like that, but instead of drawing the correct conclusion, I just thought you had been in a bad mood. Please accept my apology. I should have known better.

Slightly less of a bad mood hopefully:

I need to make a ruling on this for tournament High Guard sessions... and lots of folks could get annoyed if there's not a sane answer for this. (Or more like one or two heavily invested people....)

So please stay on topic... just this once. ;)
 
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As I'm one of those involved, if not heavily invested, and not above pursuing angles myself, I'm not sure I should be pressing too hard on the issue.

But I've honestly tried to answer it strictly as the rules say. And yes I have read them, a few times lately, and went over it again before replying to be sure I might not have missed something. I've not been selecting snippets of the rules to be contrary, but quoting the appropriate and applicable bits and attempting to explain them more clearly.

And I must have missed your own such quotes and explanations Matt as what sticks out in my mind, at least early on, are the many times you paraphrased with your own inflection to support your desired interpretation. Or maybe that's just how I read it and I'm wrong. If so I apologize.

In any case, I've made about as good an attempt as I can at stating what seems clear to me and can't see doing it any better so I'll probably just step down from this debate.

Jeff, I'm good with whatever ruling on this, or any aspect of your games, you make.
 
Hans,

Please don't worry and there was no need to apologize. The explanation was more than enough.

Strephon knows I get cranky (or worse), so your confusion was completely understandable.


Your obedient and humble etc., etc., etc.,
William R. Cameron
 
I need to make a ruling on this for tournament High Guard sessions...


Jeff,

The ruling is the one that has been agreed upon for over thirty years and the one the game's own designers used when building starships for publication:

Multiple weapon of the same type in a mixed battery cannot be grouped singly into batteries.

A mixed turret containing two lasers and one sandcaster cannot be grouped as two laser batteries and one sandcaster battery. The same mixed turret can be grouped as one laser battery (containing two weapons) and one sandcaster battery.

Matt's "loophole" interpretation rests on semantics and carefully emphasized words within the verbiage.

The interpretation used by the Hobby rests upon thirty years of continual play and the intentions of those who actually wrote the verbiage as illustrated by their own ship designs.


Regards,
Bill
 
That is the sentance. I was going to point you to the Turret Weapons tables, but stopped.

"Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into batteries"

The grouping is optional. Going back to our venerable fighter, this sentence states I may group my two fusion guns into a battery. For obvious reasons I would choose not to. The two single weapons are still batteries and get a USP.

On canon vehicles, there are numerous examples where canon craft can do stuff that isn't in the rules (300tn Gazelles with 4 hardpoints for example) and also examples of inefficient designs that wouldn't stand up in a TCS combat.

OK, let me try again:

Where in HG do you see any sentence that allows individual weapons to be formed into batteries (except for weapons in mixed turrets)?

The sentence quoted says nothing of the sort.

Indeed, I can find *no* statement that allows individual weapons to comprise a battery, with the sole exception of weapons in mixed turrets.
 
Slightly less of a bad mood hopefully:

I need to make a ruling on this for tournament High Guard sessions... and lots of folks could get annoyed if there's not a sane answer for this. (Or more like one or two heavily invested people....)

So please stay on topic... just this once. ;)

Jeff, IMHO the sensible thing is to do what the rules say. And the sensible ruling, IMHO, is this:

All weapons must be formed into batteries, since the combat system speaks exclusively in terms of batteries.

A "Battery" is one of the following:

1. A spinal weapon.

2. A single weapon bay.

3. 1-10 turrets.

4. 1 individual weapon in a mixed turret.

I hate calling this a "ruling" because this is pretty much clearly stated by the relevant rules section in High Guard.

Now, this ruling will mean that a fighter with 2 fusion guns has 1 battery. And it is therefore no better than a fighter with 1 fusion gun. But SO WHAT? The system is necessarily granular and cannot model every possible difference.

If you want to *change* High Guard to allow a fighter with 2 fusion guns to be better than a fighter with 1 fusion gun, then go ahead. But you will be using a HG *variant,* not the official rules.

Myself, I'd allow a fighter to form batteries from individual weapons, but I'd require each battery to have a gunner (allowing the pilot to be gunner for one battery). So Matt's fighter can have 2 fusion gun batteries, but will need a pilot and a gunner.
 
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Jeff,

...Multiple weapon of the same type in a mixed battery cannot be grouped singly into batteries.

A mixed turret containing two lasers and one sandcaster cannot be grouped as two laser batteries and one sandcaster battery. The same mixed turret can be grouped as one laser battery (containing two weapons) and one sandcaster battery.

Bill, I don't think that HG actually supports you on this specific point:

On ships 1000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery.

I think that this pretty clearly means that each weapon is a battery. So, a turret with 2 lasers and a sandcaster would be two laser batteries and one sandcaster. Of course, I can't imagine too many things more useless than a pair of single laser batteries in HG, so I'm skeptical as to how important this issue is. And it certainly could be worded poorly. But the rule seems clear to me -- each weapon in a mixed turret is a separate battery.

However, Matt's main argument seemed to me to be that 2 fusion guns on a single 100 ton or smaller craft should be able to form 2 separate batteries.

This is not possible because fusion guns can only be mounted in dual or single turrets.

Therefore, a 100 ton or smaller ship with 2 fusion guns cannot legally have a mixed turret. It can only be a dual turret with 2 fusion gunds. That is not a "mixed" turret. And in that case, the normal rule for batteries applies -- from 1 to 10 turrets.
 
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OK, let me try again:

Where in HG do you see any sentence that allows individual weapons to be formed into batteries (except for weapons in mixed turrets)?...snip...

Ok, two points.

1. If you choose not to group your weapons into batteries, what does this sentance leave you with...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph loath that I am to resort to such a contentious referance, Wikipedia does serve as a fair 'quick & dirty' place to start.

In a nutshell, a paragraph starts with a main point and continues on with statements that build on and support of that main point. It appears that instead of reading & comprehending the main point, most just remember the last point in the paragraph.

You could as you suggested earlier, remove the first two opening sentances as a 'mistake'. You would then be left with a paragraph that supports what people would like it to say.
 
atpollard, rest assured I am fully aware of what I am proposing. I'd love to respond more fully, your post doesn't deserve to be ignored, but my experience in this debate is that side issues are distracting contributors from the main point. My apologies.

I have to stick with discussing the rule in question with the so far only person willing to discuss it!

Regards
 
Therefore, a 100 ton or smaller ship with 2 fusion guns cannot legally have a mixed turret. It can only be a dual turret with 2 fusion gunds. That is not a "mixed" turret. And in that case, the normal rule for batteries applies -- from 1 to 10 turrets.


Ty,

I'll wholeheartedly agree with that.

This thread has been so damn confusing. I've had trouble keeping straight all the qualifications regarding turrets and batteries in +1000dTon, sub-1000dTon, and sub-100dTon designs. And when you add in the "two mounts per turret only" nature of plasma/fusion guns, it gets even more jumbled. :(

Matt's design is incorrect because it uses a dual fusion gun turret and a dual fusion gun turret is not a mixed turret because no other weapons are present.

Listen to Ty, Jeff. He's finally explained this mess to a chowderhead like me!


Regards,
Bill
 
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