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Mixed Turrets/Batteries in HG

Here is an example ship published by GDW in Adventure 6:

The Rock has "One triple turret mounts one beam laser and two missile racks."

The USP lists only ONE missile battery-- not two! The single turret requires only one gunner even though the ship has two batteries.

This design is in line with my ruling draft, is it not?
 
For what it is worth, I too spent an insane amount of time examining the rules on this issue, and started to write my "opinions" on the matter. I too attempted to look at subsequent designs of ships printed long after High Guard came out. For example? If you look at the Alien Modules, you will find that they (the publisher) used strictly Book 2 designs for the ships without bothering to list HG stats for the various ships. I also noted, that not a single ship design listed the books I checked, had designs for ship hulls larger than 1,000 dtons, which means that subsequent published material, even if converted over to HG stats, would have been covered by the rule of either uniform weapon turrets, or by the Mixed weapon turrets.

For me, the big problem stems from the fact that in order to answer a specific question, the reader of the rules has to make a ruling based on what is written right?

So why then, does it state on page 34 does it read:

"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present."

Then later state in that same paragraph:

"The pilot is assumed to be the gunner for one type of weapon on the craft. If additional types are mounted (a craft could conceivably have three different types of weapons), a gunner is required for each additional weapon."

Are we talking such that each weapon TYPE is a battery, or that each weapon itself is a battery? Mind you, I'm not even touching the rules section for "Mixed weapon turrets" as technically speaking, we're not even discussing a "turret" so much as a "Turret equivalent".

My take on the matter is this:
Weapons of a type in a single "turret" or "Turret equivalent" are to be grouped together unless they can independently be fired at another target. For example? A fixed mount that permits limited field of fire aim point changes (ie a chin mount that can change its point of aim at a target within a cone that is within 15 degrees of the true center of aim for that rigid mount) might be aimed towards Target A, while a dorsal mount with the ability to change its point of aim by 15 degrees in a cone can fire at a slightly different aim point on the same target caught within that one. Now you have two separate firing stations, and probably need two separate gunners to handle both stations at the same time. Problem here is (at least for me), that HG talks about separate weapon mounts as batteries, and talks about weapon TYPES. A single gunner can handle a given "Type" and a turret (or turret equivalent) with more than one type requires more than one gunner.

I guess in the end analysis, I favor the following interpretation:

Direct fire weapons in a fixed mount turret configuration (ie three lasers permanently anchored within the turret such that all three barrels of the laser are always the same distance from each other, and all three "vectors" formed by the three barrels will always be the same regardless of how the gunner orients his turret - must always fire together as a battery while they occupy the same turret. If fire control requires that 5 turrets be configured to work together for a single aim point under the control of a single gunner (sort of like when you place 4 wing mount guns on either wing side to fight straight ahead), you can configure an optimal spread of lasers to increase your chance of hitting with a single laser, at the expense of making certain that the rest of the lasers will automatically miss.

Consequently, this is why battery configuration has to be done BEFORE the battle starts, and that each battery can not be configured on the fly after the battle starts. I also favor the concept that if you have enough gunners, that Individual turrets can be released from the Master battery controller to fire independently, but can not return to their Massive battery control configuration until the battle is over and the turrets can be reconfigured again. But I digress...

Weapons of a type, in a fixed turret configuration, have to be treated as multiple weapons in a battery. Two missile launchers in the same turret automatically have to be treated as a "battery" simply because they are firing at the same target at the same time from the same gunner at the same ship from the same fixed mountings. Treating them as separate weapons at the same time as permitting them to fire as a battery causes the logical disconnect we're seeing overall in this discussion.

Ironically enough? Until someone brought up the issue of using the Mixed weapon rules, none of this was ever an issue. If people want to be strict in their reading of the rules, specifying that in CT's Book 2, one gunner can man a single turret and fire all the weapons within that turret, then simply remind them that if one is to use the CT book 2 rules strictly as well, then turret operators may not fire Fusion guns, Plasma Guns, nor Particle guns, but there are no rules for using them in CT Book 2 based games.

You won't for example, find examples of fusion gun armed ships in any of the Alien Module ship descriptions - as they don't exist.

Often, it occurs where the situation arises where you find yourself in agreement with this quote:

"What you asssumed I meant when I said what I said, is not what I meant when I said what I said"

When things get to the point where two people can honestly hold an opinion on what was meant when they read what they read, and those two viewpoints are opposed, then we can only conclude that the specific passage being read was poorly constructed. God Made laws, but the Devil made lawyers... ;)
 
Here is an example ship published by GDW in Adventure 6:

The Rock has "One triple turret mounts one beam laser and two missile racks."

The USP lists only ONE missile battery-- not two! The single turret requires only one gunner even though the ship has two batteries.

This design is in line with my ruling draft, is it not?

By the by, page number for the reference is page 25.

Now, here is a nasty question for you Jeffr0, and not meant to be a pain in the buttocks ;)

If someone asks you "Why can't you treat each missile as its own battery since each weapon is its own battery, instead of each weapon type?"

I agree with your assessment by the way - so don't think I'm trying to argue you towards a different interpretation - just playing the devil's advocate asking you to defend your thesis :teasing grin:

However, I took another approach to the issue...

Suppose you have a hull with agility-0, with a two thousand dton hull, that has a computer-3 mounted on the hull. Suppose further, you have a single fighter armed with a model 4 computer (no bridge making its relative size act as 1 less), along with three missile launchers.

The targeting solution results in the following:

Base 6+ to hit, + 0 agility + 0 hull size modifier + 0 computer difference value = 6+ to hit

Statistically, that is a 58.3% chance of success. The odds of securing two hits in the same round with 2 missiles is equal to the odds 58.3% ^2, or roughly 34%. Want to know the odds of having at least 1 missile hit out of two attempts?

The odds of securing at least 1 hit, is equal to 100% minus the odds that BOTH missiles will miss.

So, the odds of both missiles missing is (1-.583)^2 or 17.3 percent. That means the odds of at least ONE missile hitting becomes 1-17.3% or 82.7%

If both hit, which is only roughly a 34% chance of occurring, you inflict not one hit per round for that single turret's worth of weapons, but you inflict 2 hits. That is, if we're talking about a dual weapon mount right?

How bad does it get with three missiles?

Odds of all 3 missing will be (1-.583)^3, or roughly 7.25%. This means, that the odds of at least one missile hitting will be 1-7.25% or roughly 92.7% chance.

Contrast a Missile-2 battery of three missiles hitting that target versus three Missile-1 attacks hitting the same target in the same turn. 58.3% chance of success versus 92.7% chance of success, which would you prefer? Which do you think the Game designer intended to go when the game table results were crafted?

What bothers me most is that the terminology for batteries was interchangably used with weapons for Mixed Weapon turrets, yet the smallest unit of measurement if you will, is turret based. One turret is the smallest that a battery may be comprised of. USP battery ratings are not based upon Turrets, but upon the number of weapons.

So, excluding the "Mixed weapon turrets", we find that turret based weapons are the smallest grouping possible, and that battery USP values are rated not in turret values, but in weapon values - possibly because you can have single weapon, dual weapon, or triple weapon turrets.
 
Are we talking such that each weapon TYPE is a battery, or that each weapon itself is a battery?

Yes.

That's the rules as I've interpreted them... and as they are illustrated in the Rock design. The Rock is one of the few High Guard designs in CT that have an extended description... AND a "weird" mixed turret.

Do you see any other "official" designs that have multiple batteries of the same Weapon TYPE?
 
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Base 6+ to hit, + 0 agility + 0 hull size modifier + 0 computer difference value = 6+ to hit

2,3,4,5 => 1/36 + 2/36 + 3/36 + 4/36 = 10/36 chance of a miss.

Chance of both missing is 10/36 * 10/36 = 7.71%

Chance of both hitting is 26/36 * 26/36 = 52.16%
 
If someone asks you "Why can't you treat each missile as its own battery since each weapon is its own battery, instead of each weapon type?"

Because the intention of the of rules was that weapons of the same type in a single turret would automatically glom together into a single battery-- as illustrated in the "Rock" design.
 
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Because the intention of the of rules was that weapons of the same type in a single turret would automatically glom together into a single battery-- as illustrated in the "Rock" design.

:-) I would be very carefull about using canon designs in this way, an example doesn't preclude other options.

Just to be clear to the group, I'm happy with whatever decision Jeff makes with regard to the tourny. He can ask me to bow out if he wishes, I have no problem with that and will withdraw gracefully. Disappointed, but gracefully.

The debate IMHO is a bit larger than one game.
 
Here is an example ship published by GDW in Adventure 6:

The Rock has "One triple turret mounts one beam laser and two missile racks."

The USP lists only ONE missile battery-- not two! The single turret requires only one gunner even though the ship has two batteries.

This design is in line with my ruling draft, is it not?

Yup. It just doesn't agree with High Guard's text :D

But it's a reasonable ruling in my opinion.
 
:-) I would be very carefull about using canon designs in this way, an example doesn't preclude other options.

Just to be clear to the group, I'm happy with whatever decision Jeff makes with regard to the tourny. He can ask me to bow out if he wishes, I have no problem with that and will withdraw gracefully. Disappointed, but gracefully.

The debate IMHO is a bit larger than one game.

Don't worry about the current tourney:

All designs currently in play will remain unchanged regardless of this issue.
 
That was a clear inconsistency in my rules draft there.

I'm sticking with mine because I think they mainly have in mind the classic triple turret when they wrote that. (The sand/missile/laser combo turret is a common thing for some reason.) Once you plug two weapons of the same type in there... the earlier "a battery may be as few as one turret" rule comes into effect.

If I was going to make an errata to end this sort of debate, all I would have to change is... for starters... that last sentence to something like this:

On ships 1000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon type is grouped together into a separate battery.

Oh, I agree that your rule is probably more sensible than what High Guard says. It will also be faster to play, which is a decisive edge in my opinion.
 
Oh, I agree that your rule is probably more sensible than what High Guard says. It will also be faster to play, which is a decisive edge in my opinion.

Many of the rules and abstractions lean this way. Also, the intention of many rules is to punish small ships and small craft so that big cruisers can do their thing-- the opposite of the CAR WARS "be kind to cyclists" mentality.
 
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Oh, I agree that your rule is probably more sensible than what High Guard says. It will also be faster to play, which is a decisive edge in my opinion.

Love the thinly veiled "your interpretation is just a house rule and not real High Guard" slur there....

;)
 
A weapon mount is any single place that weapons are placed; a turret, a barbette, a bay, a spinal.

You are mixing the singular 'weapon mount' with 'weapons', leading to you treating a triple turret as a single weapon system (thats weapon system).

The triple turret carrying a weapon system is a predetermined battery of three weapons linked together. There is no facility in the rules to group multiple weapon systems together, in effect you are attempting to make batteries from batteries.

If you read the example on page 29, this becomes abundantly clear, as the example talks about how "mounts" need to grouped into batteries, and then goes on to describe how eighty beam laser triple-turrets would be able to be arranged into batteries; the smallest division was eighty individual factor three batteries.

Agree that what the example gives. The process of following the example forces you to refer to the smallest unit discussed, which is turret weapons. Not turret weapon systems. The rules treat weapons as individuals up until you choose how to group them.

The opening sentence makes this very clear by discussing the smallest unit, the weapon, before going on to discuss weapon batteries, Bay weapons and Spinal Mounts. Concluding with an allowance for mixed turrets (which doesn't make a lot of sense unless you believe weapons can already be grouped individually within a turret...)

Don't get put off by my attempting to refute your arguement. Tear mine apart and lets see where we get to.
 
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For me, the big problem stems from the fact that in order to answer a specific question, the reader of the rules has to make a ruling based on what is written right?

So why then, does it state on page 34 does it read:

"A small craft may mount the equivalent of one turret. In actuality, the mountings are probably rigid, and no actual turret is present."

largre snip

The consequence of reading the term 'weapon mount' literally as a mount for a weapon (turret weapon, bay weapon or spinal weapon) leads also to the 10 #5 fusion gun battery in five turrets. I like the fusion fighter example, but this discussion also affects much larger craft.
 
I must be getting to posts in the wrong order :-)

Note that in the example where the designer would be forced to group the weapons does NOT have the option to make 240 factor 1 batteries

Yes you are correct, because the second sentance state
"Ships with more than one mount of the same type, must group them into batteries."
240 weapon mounts are considerably more than 10! The example is consistent with the rules.

Yes, the first sentence may be slightly ambiguous; however one really cannot take one sentence and use it to build an argument without then analyzing all of the verbiage in the rest of the section.

I have glossed over most of the rest of your post as it appears to be based on the incorrect assumption the example is not being consistent with the rules.

The first sentance is only ambiguous if you choose not to take it at face value.
 
I'd say that your interpretation rests entirely on slack writing in that kludgly portion of LBB:5 where it attempts to "dock" with LBB:2.

That bit is the mixed turret rule, which is at odds with the assumptions you hold about single weapons not being allowed to be batteries.

The first sentance as written allows a weapon mount to be a battery. (bear with me, ignore for a moment the discussion on "what is a weapon mount"). It concludes, using the established assumption that individual weapons can be batteries, that mixed turrets are allowed. The mixed turret rule therefore remains consistent with the paragraph as a whole and no longer looks to be a major handwave to bk2.

The bit that must look really odd uing your chosen interpretation, is the rule within the mixed turret rule that states "in such cases, each weapon is a battery". This in turn has lead to the view it too must be wrong and interpretations in this thread that are clearly in contradiction to what it states.

I won't debate the mixed weapon rule though, as it doesn't make a lot of sense unless you understand the opening line of the paragraph.

The debate seems to have focused on the question of what is a 'weapon mount'.

No one in my experience has ever read those passages and came to the same conclusions you have. I've been playing with LBB:5 for thirty years. During a roughly 18 month period in the Navy during a WestPac and an ELINT mission off Petropovlosk, I ran dozens of TCS campaigns and round robin tourneys similar to Jeff's current project.

Bill, you are a tough, strong-willed, stubborn old boot - like myself. I'm not surprised your group/s fell in line with your interpretation, likely mine did with me too. I'll happily fall in line with Jeffs & he's nowhere near as difficult as you or I.
 
2 - Such as drop tank abuse and vessel displacements ending in 9.

And vessel displacements ending in 00 designed to allow the exact number of hardpoints and no more. And the lack of escape craft in combat vessels, and, and...

Drop tank abuse in tournys can be caught easily with a house rule that;

"If no combat is engaged the fleet must be able to jump away at the minimum parameter jump"

If drop tanks were used to get there, the fleet cannot leave. Or perhaps a wee 'scenario' addition. It avoids the house rule approach.

"The fleet will have to make 2 jumps at the minimum parameter to get to the combat point, refueling is available on the way, providing your fleet meas the refueling requirements"

But this is an interesting aside perhaps worthy of a new thread (my fault, not Bill's!), not the main debate.
 
Yes you are correct, because the second sentance state
"Ships with more than one mount of the same type, must group them into batteries."
240 weapon mounts are considerably more than 10! The example is consistent with the rules.

No, no, no!
You miss the point. The point is that the example clearly states that the arrangement of weapons is derived from the optimized state of each example. That is, the number of weapons to achieve the listed weapons factor is met exactly, with no "wasted" weapons.

IF it were OK to have each individual WEAPON as a battery, then 240 Factor-1 batteries would also be an optimal configuration, and therefor included in the example. It is not, strongly indicating IT'S NOT OK! =]
 
That bit is the mixed turret rule, which is at odds with the assumptions you hold about single weapons not being allowed to be batteries.

The first sentance as written allows a weapon mount to be a battery. (bear with me, ignore for a moment the discussion on "what is a weapon mount"). It concludes, using the established assumption that individual weapons can be batteries, that mixed turrets are allowed. The mixed turret rule therefore remains consistent with the paragraph as a whole and no longer looks to be a major handwave to bk2.

The bit that must look really odd uing your chosen interpretation, is the rule within the mixed turret rule that states "in such cases, each weapon is a battery". This in turn has lead to the view it too must be wrong and interpretations in this thread that are clearly in contradiction to what it states.

I won't debate the mixed weapon rule though, as it doesn't make a lot of sense unless you understand the opening line of the paragraph.

The debate seems to have focused on the question of what is a 'weapon mount'.



Bill, you are a tough, strong-willed, stubborn old boot - like myself. I'm not surprised your group/s fell in line with your interpretation, likely mine did with me too. I'll happily fall in line with Jeffs & he's nowhere near as difficult as you or I.

This debate rests entirely on what you decide a weapon mount is. If you decide that EACH location in a turret is a weapon mount, and allow unmixed turrets to be split into batteries then why do you need a mixed-turret rule exception? If it's allowed, then why does it explicitly state the mixed turrets must organize individual weapons into batteries? The mixed turret rule is completely unneeded under your interpretation.The exception defines the rule: Mounts are (1) Entire turrets, except mixed; (2) barbettes; (3) Bays; (4) spinal mounts; and (5) - by the grace of the exception - individual weapons mounted in a mixed turret. It does not provide consistency, it provides for the exception.
 
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OK, one more time :)

OK, let's take four lines in Book 5 and analyze them. First, we'll list the entries in question and label them A-D.

A. Page 29: "Ships with more than ten mounts of the same type must group them into batteries."

B. Page 29: "A battery may be as few as one turret, or as many as ten."

c. Page 29: On ships 1000 tons and under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery."

D. Page 31: "On ships with more than ten turrets, weapons may not be mixed within a turret."

The key, I think is B. It says a battery may be as little as one turret. You cannot disingenuously define this to mean that as 1/3 of a turret or 1/2 of a turret can be a battery. This stands regardless of whether you choose to, OR are required to organize your weapons into batteries.

C goes on to state that if on a ship less than 1000 tons, turrets may be mixed, and in this case only (the implied and unstated only) is it OK to have batteries organized in units smaller than one WHOLE turret. It provides the sole exception to the condition stated in B. It does not confirm your assumption that the first sentence of the paragraph defines each weapon as a mount, as B completely obviates this assumption.

D restates C in a different way in the section on turrets.

If you read A in relation to B, you can clearly see the relationship of: Mount = Turret. Fractional turrets need not apply. :)

They say "mount", I think, because it refers universally to turrets and barbettes, which they define as larger single turrets.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As an aside of how the author(s) sometimes trip even themselves up, note that C and D do not say the same thing, although they appear to. You could have an 1100 ton ship, with one bay and 10 turrets. By one reading (C), you cannot mix the turrets; by another reading (D), this ship still does NOT have more than 10 turrets so you'd be OK to mix them - except that rule C explicitly states the 1000 ton limit.
 
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