Mongoose High Guard

[Allensh]

I hope MgT fails miserably.

That is just downright nasty.

Here's a clue: If MGT fails, TRAVELLER FAILS! It would go back to being a private little club for those "in the know" and cease to be a viable game line. Because if you think T5 is gonna save it you haven't been paying attention...

Allen

 

[BillDowns]

That is just downright nasty.

Here's a clue: If MGT fails, TRAVELLER FAILS! It would go back to being a private little club for those "in the know" and cease to be a viable game line. Because if you think T5 is gonna save it you haven't been paying attention...

Allen

Ditto.

And IMO, T5 is a waste of time anyway. If MGT fails, Traveller fails, and if it succeeds, T5 is extraneous.

 

[mbrinkhues]

That is just downright nasty.

Here's a clue: If MGT fails, TRAVELLER FAILS! It would go back to being a private little club for those "in the know" and cease to be a viable game line. Because if you think T5 is gonna save it you haven't been paying attention...

Allen

Actually it won't. The GURPS licence will still be good and SJ Games is one of the big players in the pool with more "legs" than just the dying RPG markets. Currently MG is playing "catch up" with the material availabel for GT

 

[Whipsnade]

If anyone wonders why publishers don't take a more active role on forums, this is a good example why.

MongooseMatt,

Boo-hoo.

We're all adults here, we all share our opinions good or bad, and if Mongoose is only comfortable reading fora that provide only praise that's their problem. The Fox News model doesn't provide for the honest feedback any game publisher needs, not that I've seen Mongoose objectively examine any feedback presented either at their own forum or elsewhere.

I'm an educated consumer of games and not some gushing fanboy or paid shill. I call things as I see them and, when I feel mistakes have been made, I speak up. I know games can't be perfect, but I expect them to be perfectable. Mistakes will be made as long as humans are involved, admitting mistakes occur is healthy, and errata is the sign of a self-correcting system.

As an educated consumer, I want answers as to why things that weren't broken got changed. And by answers I don't mean lame excuses like We reimagined the game.

Weapon bays have been handled one way in Traveller for over thirty years without any problem. So, why did Mongoose feel the need to "fix" something that wasn't broken?

Here's a reminder in case you missed the memo: They publish these games for us. They publish them so that they can sell them and make money., so it behooves them to pay attention to all purchasers and not just the fanboys and cheerleaders. Ignoring your long term market is a good way to go out of business.

I've been buying Traveller material since Carter was in the White House, so who do you think will be still be buying Traveller materials five or ten years from now? Me or some fanboy with "Mongoose" in his nickname?


Bill

 

[far-trader]

That is just downright nasty.

Here's a clue: If MGT fails, TRAVELLER FAILS! It would go back to being a private little club for those "in the know" and cease to be a viable game line. Because if you think T5 is gonna save it you haven't been paying attention...

Allen

Heh, and your reply isn't nasty too?

Here's a clue: Classic Traveller has been getting along quite well thank you very much for over 30 years through more editions and variations than some games have rule books for. Where you see "private little clubs" I see candles in the darkness. It'll be here long after Mongoose has it's advertised 10 year run.

Frankly I'm more worried, and have been from the first announcements of the details of the deal with MP, that succeed or fail they and the fans could well kill Traveller all by themselves. That's not meant as nasty. It's a concern. One I haven't seen addressed let alone allayed.

 

[Whipsnade]

That is just downright nasty.

Allen,

Nasty? Try "honest" instead.

Here's a clue: If MGT fails, TRAVELLER FAILS!

Score a laugh point. GDW failed and Traveller went on. DGP closed shop and Traveller went on. Imperium Games failed and Traveller went on. QLI is on life support and Traveller goes on.

Mongoose is just another third party publisher among dozens of third party publishers across Traveller's 30+ year history. Don't fall for their end-of-the-world advertising style; ZOMG!!! You better take what we give you and like or else we'll fail and Traveller will die!!!". Act like an educated consumer instead.

Because if you think T5 is gonna save it you haven't been paying attention...

Paying attention? I was part of the T5 Sewing Circle.

Here's something to mull over: Given that I was in the Sewing Circle, why do you think I'm not actively involved in various threads the T5 forum?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Actually it won't. The GURPS licence will still be good and SJ Games is one of the big players in the pool with more "legs" than just the dying RPG markets. Currently MG is playing "catch up" with the material availabel for GT

Mike,

I couldn't agree with you more, even though I dislike using the GURPS system for Traveller.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

We're all adults here, we all share our opinions good or bad, and if Mongoose is only comfortable reading fora that provide only praise that's their problem. The Fox News model doesn't provide for the honest feedback and game publisher needs, not that I've seen Mongoose objectively examine any feedback presented either at their own forum or elsewhere.

Bill, I've been thinking this over, and although my first instinct is to support you because we're friends and because we're usually on the same page (if not always on the same paragraph), I have to say that I think you overstepped a boundary here. This wasn't honest feedback, it was ill-wishing.

(Even if Moongoose is taking a hatchet to our beloved OTU (and please, everybody, note the conditional), they couldn't possibly do any worse than TNE did, could they? )

Joking aside, the very worst that can happen is that you and I can't use anything that Mongoose prints, and that's no worse than not having anyone print anything at all. And that's not very likely. There's a couple of writeups in MGT:SM that I'm going to use if I ever get around to writing anything that's set on those worlds.

Bottom line, I feel that even if Mongoose were producing Traveller: The Fantasy Game there still wouldn't be any call to wish that they would fail.

And, Matt, I agree with Bill about changes: If it works, don't change it. If it doesn't work, fix it. If you can't fix it, then, and only then, change it.


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I'm sure I don't need to remind everyone that trashing other companies and their products is against the rules.

 

[Whipsnade]

This wasn't honest feedback, it was ill-wishing.

Hans,

You're correct. It was ill-wishing on my part. Mea culpa.

My opinion of Mongoose has been going steadily downhill since the first announcement:

- Their "playtests" were laughable, little more than repeated "ZOMG It's great" posts.

- Then I was active in a thread about here MgT's lack of a forgery skill. MP's "answers" were essentially "We didn't feel it was needed and we won't explain why, so you can shut up now".

- Next I heard about the issue Dan brought up regarding the MP/FFE deal, especially the free fanzine angle. That left me disgusted with MP's short sightedness.

- After that, I had the chance to read MgT version of "Mercenary" last week and was appalled. Among many other things, the artillery in it listed belongs in a goddamn cartoon.

- Then their version of HG comes out with small craft completely construction broken, unneeded changes in bay weaponry, and ghu knows what else.

Out of all that you know which complaints MP is actually handling? Missing page numbers. You can get another book - and a free one too! - if you send back your book with missing page numbers. That's nice, but what about all the mistakes in the text? What about all the errata? Don't ask about that or MgT will fail and Traveller will die.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

I'm sure I don't need to remind everyone that trashing other companies and their products is against the rules.

Andrew,

What's the difference between "trashing" and negative opinions and/or critiques? Seriously.

If I write "ZOMG SJGames sux and BtC is horrible!!!", that should be seen as trashing, right?

However, if I write BtC is a canonical train wreck because of A, B, C, and D. SJGames doesn't accept errata for it anymore and won't discuss fixing it either., that should just be seen as a negative opinion or critique, right?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Kilgs]

Me? I love it when people publish books about games I like. I really like it when the fanbase gets interested and neat things show up on the internet like fan-created maps, adventures etc. I love the fact that Traveller has had that going since Al Gore created the internet. The travellermap, Atlas, Downport... (and all the others) all of them great resources. But I also notice that no one has created any new pages in quite some time. Some of the Downport links are going to "Page Not Found." Heaven and Earth hasn't been updated in years so that it bugs out on XP and won't work on Vista. Same with Universe (not to denigrate the fine Hemdian who is working on it in his spare time). This board has been reduced to bickering over fine points of words written in 1979 compared with that one interview in Dungeon Magazine back in 1983 compared to the canon that is accepted or not accepted as of 1991 or 1997 or which license or who cares.

So if someone wants to take a shot at it and get people pumped again, and they make cool things for me to choose to use or disuse... kick ASS!

Hell, there is NO SUCH THING as an OTU. There's only MY TRAVELLER UNIVERSE. And there's only MY Traveller mechanics. Everything else... why should I or YOU care? I/you don't have to buy it, I/you don't have to use it, and if I/you am not using it then why should I/you care if anyone else is?

Can we move on to something productive?

 

[Allensh]

Actually it won't. The GURPS licence will still be good and SJ Games is one of the big players in the pool with more "legs" than just the dying RPG markets. Currently MG is playing "catch up" with the material availabel for GT

when was the last time Steve Jackson Games published a GURPS Traveller book and not a PDF? SJG is no longer a big player in the RPG market. GURPS has tanked, quite frankly. PDFs can't be bought in game stores and do not sell anywhere near as well as physical books.

Steve Jackson Games survives today on Munchkin, pure and simple. Their last few stakeholders reports have made that abundantly clear.

Relying on SJG to "save" Traveller is not a good idea.

Allen

 

[Original_Carl]

If anyone wonders why publishers don't take a more active role on forums, this is a good example why.

I hear you, but Matt, this is the Internet.

Remember this?

The G.I.F.T.

Warning. There's a bad word in that comic, but no nudity, so you should be OK looking at it at work.

Don't take it personally. If they didn't care, they wouldn't say anything, and this forum would be a ghost town.

 

[Allensh]

Heh, and your reply isn't nasty too?

Here's a clue: Classic Traveller has been getting along quite well thank you very much for over 30 years through more editions and variations than some games have rule books for. Where you see "private little clubs" I see candles in the darkness. It'll be here long after Mongoose has it's advertised 10 year run.

Frankly I'm more worried, and have been from the first announcements of the details of the deal with MP, that succeed or fail they and the fans could well kill Traveller all by themselves. That's not meant as nasty. It's a concern. One I haven't seen addressed let alone allayed.

I don't think my reply was nasty. I was not directly wishing ill will on anyone. I simply stated what I believe; T5 is not going to get Traveller the exposure that MgT does. It isn't even designed to! Marc has said on many occasions that T5 would not be something that every Traveller player needs; its for the hardcore fan base. That's just fine, but it automatically means it won't be as commercially viable as Traveller needs to be to survive as a brand in a shrinking marketplace.

and as for CT "surviving"...in what form? PDFs? I don't see CT actively being published anywhere. The reprint series petered out a number of years ago.

Allen

 

[Jeffr0]

CT Products were being published by Avenger up until they were eliminated in order to make room for Mongoose.

Thanks so much for that.

 

[mbrinkhues]

when was the last time Steve Jackson Games published a GURPS Traveller book and not a PDF? SJG is no longer a big player in the RPG market. GURPS has tanked, quite frankly. PDFs can't be bought in game stores and do not sell anywhere near as well as physical books.

Steve Jackson Games survives today on Munchkin, pure and simple. Their last few stakeholders reports have made that abundantly clear.

Relying on SJG to "save" Traveller is not a good idea.

Allen

Actually the books are availabel as PDF through e23 so even if MG drops dead tomorrow there is a legal and easy way to get Traveller. And the GURPS rulesset is availabel in book form in my FLGS(es). Unlike say Mongoose Traveller that they are no longer stocking due to lack of interest from customers.

And yes, SJGs main source of income is Munchkin, never doubted that. But that gives them a nice second leg so unlike many other RPG publishers they have a decend chance of survival. 2007/2008 saw quite a few publishers die, drop licences or kill product lines. SJG picket up a "new" line when they agreed to publish the RPG part of DP9s "Heavy Gear"

So relying on SJG to provide legal access to Traveller IS a good approach since they are clearely positioned to do it. Maybe not (much) new material but there is nothing new coming out of Mongoose either, they are publishing books like Scout and Beltstrike, catching up on what is there from SJG, MegaTraveller, ClassicTraveller, T20... since quite some time. And SJG trickles down some stuff through JTAS.

So any new customer has a ton of stuff to buy, read and use before the lack of "new" affects him.

 

[Allensh]

And, Matt, I agree with Bill about changes: If it works, don't change it. If it doesn't work, fix it. If you can't fix it, then, and only then, change it.


Hans

I don't know exactly what you're talking about in terms of canon changes, unless we are talking about that bays on small ships thing again and then I have to wonder why is this signficant? So it changes some ship designs...Big deal. Ship designs have changed in small ways and large in every edition of Traveller after the first. Its not like it isn't easy to fix. Or is it the introduction of "new" technology? About time! If Traveller (the rules set, not the setting) can't handle the things that are found in science fiction after 1977, it isn't going to get much of an audience.

But...I do actually agree with you as far as the OTU is concerned. Unless it needs changing, don't change it. Some things need changing, others don't.

Here's one thing that needs changing; Traveller as a game system needs to move away from the rigid "canon" of the OTU. and Mongoose is trying to do that.

Allen

 

[Jeffr0]

Here's one thing that needs changing; Traveller as a game system needs to move away from the rigid "canon" of the OTU. and Mongoose is trying to do that.

So they're going to do that by ignoring the work of GT authors-- thereby devaluing the material I've invested in??

 

[drnuncheon]

Because Bill is being totally unfair here? You're not, in fact, changing basic parts of the underpinning of the OTU (in casu, the technology), so he's nothing to be upset about and he has no reason to fear that you will change other parts for the worse in the future?

As near as I can tell, every single instance of the Traveller rules has changed the technology to some degree.

Given that, why is Mongoose doing the same thing so terrible?