Mongoose Traveller 2nd Edition Beta Arrives Friday

[DickNervous]

My problem is that it seems to me to be ambiguous whether to use difficulty or boon/bane in each situation. In your example you could have said moving a normal sized crate is average difficulty but because the crate is heavy then you add a bane die. And then if the ship starts shaking you can't add another bane die so you have to use difficulty to represent that.

It's not that I dislike it. It seems quite a neat mechanic but I'm having trouble seeing how to decide when to use it and when to use difficulty.
Thanks. I'll give him a try.

Difficulty is something that is "set in stone" beforehand and ranges from Simple (2+) to Formidable (14+) for a specific task. To use an example from the book, the difficulty of defending a client in court who is obviously guilty would be "Very Difficult" and you would need to roll a 12+ to succeed (with your skill modifiers). This particular task will always have the same difficulty rating.

Boons and Banes are things that could impact a specific check being done in a specific situation. In the example above if the client was a very popular and well liked celebrity, that could be considered a "boon". However, if they were a known criminal with a long record, that could be a "bane".

Other examples could be firing a weapon in a blizzard (bane), climbing rocks in the rain (bane), or trying to escape pursuers in an area that you grew up in (boon).

So instead of the GM changing the difficulty of a task based on the conditions, and struggling to determine how much harder/easier the task should be, you just decide if the conditions should impact the outcome and roll and extra die.

 

[mike wightman]

This is just raising or lowering the difficulty by a different name.

Oddly it would work better if you had fewer task difficulties, but as it is a boon is like reducing the difficulty by one level while a bane is like raising the difficulty.

The real advantage is that you can use the concept to encourage roleplaying rather than DM hunting.

 

[McPerth]

How is compatibilitiy among both versions?

For what I read here and in the presentation, it reminds me the differences among CT and MT (compatible characters, more or less compatible tasks, less compatible, to say the least, spaceships). Is that feeling right?

 

[aramis]

How is compatibilitiy among both versions?

For what I read here and in the presentation, it reminds me the differences among CT and MT (compatible characters, more or less compatible tasks, less compatible, to say the least, spaceships). Is that feeling right?

Different skill list, so characters are only somewhat compatible.

Ships are a wholly different design paradigm, and one that matches up with no other edition closely.

 

[Adam Dray]

I think MG2 grafted on Advantage/Disadvantage from D&D 5e without really considering the implications or understanding it deeply.

The rules are terribly schizophrenic about how to use Boons and Banes.

The intent SEEMS (see p61, column 1, top) to be, pick a task difficulty based on how hard the task is "without any exterior effects," and then apply a Bane if there are complications from outside.

They give the example of making a phone call "hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm." Making a phone call is a Simple task (task difficulty 2+) but doing it while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm adds a Bane.

So far, so good.

Except for two things.

1) The rules as written contradict this.

For example, the TASK DIFFICULTIES section on page 58 gives examples that include exterior effects. Read the very first example for a Difficult task, "making an accurate shot in the middle of a ferocious storm." An accurate shot is an Average task, and the ferocious storm adds a Bane, by those rules.

There's one interpretation that makes this work, I think. The Referee sets the difficulty before the game starts, then does not adjust them in play, but rather inflicts a Bane or Boon to adjust difficulty.

That works only if the Referee isn't flying by the seat of his pants and making stuff up on the go. Also, this is a problem:

2) This doesn't leave room for degrees of exterior effects.

You can add only one Bane at a time. If Bob is hanging from a spaceship that isn't moving and trying to fire a gun, it's a Bane. If Bob is hanging from a spaceship with a severed leg, a Vargr pulling on him, while the spaceship flies through a terrible storm, dragging him across the tops of some trees, that's a Bane.

Yeah, yeah, we all know how to run that encounter in a better way, but not using the rules as written. This is about the rules as written. Imagine you're a new Referee trying to understand this.

 

[mike wightman]

Like I posted upthread - what is the difference between applying a bane or just increasing the difficulty of the task?

Personally I would have either kept the difficulty by task number - 4+, 6+, 8+ etc - or my preferred method would be to only have two target numbers 8+ and 12+ and keep the boon/bane rule (like I said it encourages roleplaying).

 

[DickNervous]

I think MG2 grafted on Advantage/Disadvantage from D&D 5e without really considering the implications or understanding it deeply.

The rules are terribly schizophrenic about how to use Boons and Banes.

The intent SEEMS (see p61, column 1, top) to be, pick a task difficulty based on how hard the task is "without any exterior effects," and then apply a Bane if there are complications from outside.

They give the example of making a phone call "hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm." Making a phone call is a Simple task (task difficulty 2+) but doing it while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm adds a Bane.

So far, so good.

Except for two things.

1) The rules as written contradict this.

For example, the TASK DIFFICULTIES section on page 58 gives examples that include exterior effects. Read the very first example for a Difficult task, "making an accurate shot in the middle of a ferocious storm." An accurate shot is an Average task, and the ferocious storm adds a Bane, by those rules.

There's one interpretation that makes this work, I think. The Referee sets the difficulty before the game starts, then does not adjust them in play, but rather inflicts a Bane or Boon to adjust difficulty.

That works only if the Referee isn't flying by the seat of his pants and making stuff up on the go. Also, this is a problem:

2) This doesn't leave room for degrees of exterior effects.

You can add only one Bane at a time. If Bob is hanging from a spaceship that isn't moving and trying to fire a gun, it's a Bane. If Bob is hanging from a spaceship with a severed leg, a Vargr pulling on him, while the spaceship flies through a terrible storm, dragging him across the tops of some trees, that's a Bane.

Yeah, yeah, we all know how to run that encounter in a better way, but not using the rules as written. This is about the rules as written. Imagine you're a new Referee trying to understand this.

As I am digging in more and more I agree that rules, as they are currently written, are contradictory and even a bit messed up. However, I think the way that you would handle Example 2 using them as written it to make that a Task Chain.

• Firing a gun (Gun Combat check)
• Hanging from spaceship (Athletics)
• Fighting unconsciousness from severed leg (END check)
• Bob probably doesn't even feel the Vargr pulling on him
• DM for flying through the storm based upon the effect of a Pilot check (by the pilot of course)
• Hitting trees, Bane.

Of course that is a ridiculous way of resolving it with waaaay to much rolling of dice for my liking.

The bottom line is that I think they need to clear up the contradictions and make sure the GM has the leeway to adjust the difficulty as they see fit before any rolls are done. Then they can use the Boon/Bane as a modifier based upon what the players are doing (or have done).

For example, the players scout out the area of a meet with some shady characters and make sure they know where the exits are, which hallway leads where, and where the hiding spots are prior to the meeting. The meeting goes bad and the players are trying to escape, which might be a Difficult task (10+) against whatever skill the GM things appropriate. However, since they took the time to scout the area ahead of time, they get a Bane.

This type of thing would encourage role playing, which as we all know, is a good thing.

 

[Bloo]

They give the example of making a phone call "hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm." Making a phone call is a Simple task (task difficulty 2+) but doing it while hanging upside down from a spacecraft flying through a storm adds a Bane.

Thank you. I think I'll stop reading this beta version I just purchased.

That is a mind-numbingly (what's polite for very, very not-smart?) example.

Why is making a phone call a task at all? "Phone, call Mom." Done.
You're under a spacecraft, so presumably the phone is sophisticated enough to allow voice dialing as modern phones can.
Or maybe it's a rotary phone? Have a finger, nose or single manipulator of any sort? Success!

That example does no one associated with it any favors.

Mechanically:
Boon: average +3.5 to a roll (minimum: +1)
Bane: average -3.5 to a roll (minium: -1)

So it is 'noisier' than just changing the difficultly level.

 

[Garnfellow]

Advantage/Disadvantage is a great mechanic for D&D, because it reduces all of the niggling situational modifiers down to one simple adjustment, making it easier for the DM to adjudicate complicated situations on the fly. 3e and 4e could really get bogged down with these things . . . "you're on an uneven surface, it's shadowy illumination, but the goblin is dazed and flanked and you are hasted . . ."

It works well with a flat range of 1-20 and a limited set of modifiers, but I'm not sure how well it will work with a curved distribution from only 2-12. 5e intentionally developed a flatter and smaller set of modifiers; advantage and disadvantage were baked into the math from the get go.

Would like to see someone take a hard look at the maths around 2D6. Bloo, I don't think boon or bane are equal to flat average bonuses of a 1D6. The maths are more complicated and vary by the DC.

 

[McPerth]

Mechanically:
Boon: average +3.5 to a roll (minimum: +1)
Bane: average -3.5 to a roll (minium: -1)

As I have read here, a boon in a task rolls 3d6 and discards the lower one, while a bane rolls 3d6 and discards the higher one.

If so, it's not the equivalent to DMs, as you can still roll a 2 in 3d6 discarding lower (by rolling 3 "1s") or a 12 in 3d6 discarding higher (by rolling 3 "6s"), something that you cannot with DMs (with a +1 DM, your minimal roll is 3, and with a -1 DM, your maximum roll is 11).

 

[CosmicGamer]

This is just raising or lowering the difficulty by a different name.

Yes and no

Mechanically:
Boon: average +3.5 to a roll (minimum: +1)
Bane: average -3.5 to a roll (minium: -1)

No

As I have read here, a boon in a task rolls 3d6 and discards the lower one, while a bane rolls 3d6 and discards the higher one.

If so, it's not the equivalent to DMs, as you can still roll a 2 in 3d6 discarding lower (by rolling 3 "1s") or a 12 in 3d6 discarding higher (by rolling 3 "6s"), something that you cannot with DMs (with a +1 DM, your minimal roll is 3, and with a -1 DM, your maximum roll is 11).

Yes

My problem is that it seems to me to be ambiguous whether to use difficulty or boon/bane in each situation.

Mostly I see it for tasks with a set difficulty and as an alternative to DMs.

As McPerth points out, using difficulty (or DMs) can make a task impossible or unnecessary/automatic. It pushes the probability completely off one end or the other of the 2d6 bell curve.

Bane/Boon also keeps effect within the same range instead of the way difficulty and DMs push it towards one end or the other.

 

[Bloo]

As I have read here, a boon in a task rolls 3d6 and discards the lower one, while a bane rolls 3d6 and discards the higher one.

Right.

Check my math here for a Boon role.

Total: #ways to roll it (permutations) | Chance to Roll | Chance to Roll Total or Better
12	6	(666,665,664,663,662,661) | 11% | 11%
11	5	(655,654,653,652,651) | 9% | 20%
10	9	(644,643,642,641,555,554,553, 552, 551) | 17% | 37%
9	7	(633,632,631,544,543,542,541) | 13% | 50%
8	9	(622,621,533,532,531,444,443, 442, 441) | 17% | 67%
7	6	(611,522,521,433,432,431) | 11% | 78%
6	6	(511,422,421,333,332,331) | 11% | 89%
5	2	(321,322) | 4% | 93%
4	2	(222,221) | 4% | 96%
3	1	(211) | 2% | 98%
2	1	(111) | 2% | 100%

+-----------------------------------------------+
|                                               |
|                     BOON                      |
|                                               |
|        7                      XX XX XX        |
|        6                XX XX XX XX XX    XX  |
|        5                XX XX XX XX XX XX XX  |
|  # of  4                XX XX XX XX XX XX XX  |
|  ways  3                XX XX XX XX XX XX XX  |
|        2          XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX  |
|        1    XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX  |
|                                               |
|             02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12  |
|                                               |
|                       Result                  |
|                                               |
+-----------------------------------------------+

 

[aramis]

Bloo, your top line has the wrong number of permutations... when doing this stuff, you need to use each die colored to actually work out the correct ratios.

Total 12: P(12) = 16/216
N | H-L | rwb
1 | 666 | 666
3 | 665 | 665 656 566
3 | 664 | 664 646 466
3 | 663 | 663 636 366
3 | 662 | 662 626 266
3 | 661 | 661 616 166

Your others have similar errors.

Likewise, for 11: P(11) = 27/216

655 565 556
654 645 465 564 546 456
653 635 365 563 536 356
652 625 265 562 526 256
651 615 165 561 516 156

And 10 (64, 55): P(10)=34/216
644 464 446
643 634 364 463 436 346
642 624 324 462 426 246
641 614 314 461 416 146
555
554 545 455
553 535 355
552 525 255
551 515 155

And 9 (63_ 54_) P=36/216
633 363 336
632 623 263 362 326 236
631 613 163 361 316 136
544 454 445
543 534 354 453 435 345
542 524 254 452 425 245
541 514 154 451 415 145

And 8 (62, 53, 44) P=34/216
622 262 226
621 612 162 261 216 126
533 353 335
532 523 253 352 325 235
531 513 153 351 315 135
444
443 434 344
442 424 244
441 414 144

7 (61, 52, 43) P=27/216
611 161 116
522 252 225
521 512 152 251 215 125
433 343 334
432 423 243 342 324 234
431 413 143 341 314 134

6 (51, 42, 33): P(6) = 19/216
511 151 115
422 242 224
421 412 142 241 214 124
333
332 323 233
331 313 133

5 (41, 32) P(5) = 12/216
411 141 114
322 232 223
321 312 132 231 213 123

4 (31, 22) P(4) = 7/216
311 131 113
222
221 212 122

3 (21) P(3)=3/216
211 121 112

2 (11) P(2)=1/216
111 [/code]
Giving a final check of

X	N(x)	%(x)
12	16	7.4
11	27	12.5
10	34	15.7
9	36	16.7
8	34	15.7
7	27	12.5
6	19	8.8
5	12	5.6
4	7	3.2
3	3	1.4
2	1	0.5

 

[aramis]

Oh, and for bane, reverse the odds...

X Boon	X Bane	N(x)	%(x)
12	2	16	7.4
11	3	27	12.5
10	4	34	15.7
9	5	36	16.7
8	6	34	15.7
7	7	27	12.5
6	8	19	8.8
5	9	12	5.6
4	10	7	3.2
3	11	3	1.4
2	12	1	0.5

and cum:

N+ Boon	nP(≥x)	%
12+	16	7.4%
11+	43	19.9%
10+	77	35.6%
9+	113	52.3%
8+	147	68.1%
7+	174	80.6%
6+	193	89.4%
5+	205	94.9%
4	212	98.1%
3+	215	99.5%
2+	216	100%

N+ Bane	nP(≥x)	%
12+	1	0.5%
11+	4	1.9%
10+	11	5.1%
9+	23	10.6%
8+	42	19.4%
7+	69	31.9%
6+	103	47.7%
5+	139	64.4%
4+	173	80.1%
3+	200	92.6%
2+	216	100%

 

[rhialto]

You just made my day, thanks!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Mechanically:
Boon: average +3.5 to a roll (minimum: +1)
Bane: average -3.5 to a roll (minium: -1)

So it is 'noisier' than just changing the difficultly level.

As others have said, it is (mechanically) not as simple as applying a new modifier - that is really the point of it. The probabilities kind of 'float', making easier tasks easier and harder tasks harder. Others have given the breakdown.

The real strength is using it in play - by bypassing additional DMs, it makes the 2D range far more flexible and, once the players know what a Boon or Bane is, play is just that little bit smoother and quicker.

This was one of the areas I was most nervous about unveiling to the world, as it is an actual mechanical change (well, addition) to the past rules set, but it does look like it is solid. The hard part, I think, is going to be deciding when they should be applied over and above Difficulties and DMs - it is a little muddy at the moment but then, that is why we have a playtest!

 

[wbyrd]

I've looked at bans and boons a bit.
I see boon/bane as an ambiguous "maybe" while affecting the difficulty is a clear cut alteration of the situation.

th boon/bane comes down to It might help vs it will help....

If a ref caches himself thinking, or saying, I don't know it might help a little...give a boon. The same if he says.that might cause you some problems.

Then there remains a bit of uncertainty as to whether or not the situation/idea will impact the outcome.

Now if the REf goes..well that will definitely make things easier/harder then adjust the difficulty to reflect the fact that the idea/situation will most assuredly have an effect on the outcome by making it harder or easier.

for example tossing a handful of dust in the other guys face...there is no real way to know if it will work before hand... award a bane to the targets next attack...it's a matter of probability if it works or doesn't work.

If you spray him in the face with military grade tear gas...odds are more than certain that even if he isn't incapacitated, he will have a more difficult time hitting for a few seconds. So the ref adjusts his difficulty levels to reflect this.

this bit of mental processing resolves the issue for me. But I don't expect it to work for everyone.

 

[Stainless]

It's been a loooong time since I posted here, but here goes.

I think (I actually haven't done the maths on it so don't shoot me if I've got it wrong), that 2d6 gives you a symmetrical bell curve which can be shifted left or right with the application of DMs.

2d6 + Boon/Bane gives you an Poisson distribution which is asymmetrical (except for the one instance where it matches a bell curve). Think of a bell curve where one side has been skewed out to give you a tear-drop effect. This is actually a much more realistic way of modelling the outcome of real world events, but that's another story as they say.

One way they could describe it is to use DMs for concrete effects (you Str is your Str no matter what, your skill is your skill no matter what, the weapon's augment has a set effect on performance). But when you have variable unpredictable effects, use a Boon/Bane (the wind could blow strong throwing you off a lot, or just a bit or maybe abate just at the right time so as to not affect you).

If a form a clear wording can be found and some good examples (I agree the hanging upside down from a spaceship is a poor example), it should be a good addition to the game. But I do hate the terminology. Bonus/Penalty seems more direct.

 

[mike wightman]

2d6 is not a curve.

You don't get a curve until a minimum of 3d.

 

[Stainless]

2d6 is not a curve.

You don't get a curve until a minimum of 3d.

Granted. It's an extremely granular distribution.