Mongoose Traveller 2nd Edition Beta Arrives Friday

[SanDragon]

So, it's a ziggurat!

 

[aramis]

2d6 is not a curve.

You don't get a curve until a minimum of 3d.

Most people don't distinguish between biinear (2dX), trilinear (1dX+1dY) and curve (3dX).

And, to be really picayune, a stepped bell from 3dX isn't actually a curve, either, but a quantized approximation of a bell curve, in exactly the same way that 2dX isn't a bilinear distribution, but a quantized approximation of one. One cannot usefully discuss the probability of 4.3 on 3d6, for example - 4.3 is outside the quantum nodes, and thus 0...

But that's all really obnoxiously nitpicky.

2d6 is still reasonably close to roundup(4d6/2,0) ... sufficiently so as to invoke the same issues of unequal probability change.

 

[Stainless]

We can argue the semantics of curves, etc. but what 2d6 is, is symmetrical. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Boon/Bane mechanic turns the distribution into an asymmetrical one. Can anyone confirm? Having a skewed distribution is something worth note I think. But how you take it (favourable/unfavourable) is of course up to the individual.

 

[aramis]

We can argue the semantics of curves, etc. but what 2d6 is, is symmetrical. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Boon/Bane mechanic turns the distribution into an asymmetrical one. Can anyone confirm? Having a skewed distribution is something worth note I think. But how you take it (favourable/unfavourable) is of course up to the individual.

Yes, it skews the distribution.

Standard is mean, median, and mode all 7.
Boon median is 9, mode is also 9, mean is 8.09 or so.
Bane median is 5, mode is 5, mean 5.91 or so.

 

[DickNervous]

The real strength is using it in play - by bypassing additional DMs, it makes the 2D range far more flexible and, once the players know what a Boon or Bane is, play is just that little bit smoother and quicker.

This was one of the areas I was most nervous about unveiling to the world, as it is an actual mechanical change (well, addition) to the past rules set, but it does look like it is solid. The hard part, I think, is going to be deciding when they should be applied over and above Difficulties and DMs - it is a little muddy at the moment but then, that is why we have a playtest!

I can see why you were nervous as it has generated quite a bit of debate, but I think that wbyrd sums it up best in the following post:

I've looked at bans and boons a bit.
I see boon/bane as an ambiguous "maybe" while affecting the difficulty is a clear cut alteration of the situation.

th boon/bane comes down to It might help vs it will help....

If a ref caches himself thinking, or saying, I don't know it might help a little...give a boon. The same if he says.that might cause you some problems.

Then there remains a bit of uncertainty as to whether or not the situation/idea will impact the outcome.

Now if the REf goes..well that will definitely make things easier/harder then adjust the difficulty to reflect the fact that the idea/situation will most assuredly have an effect on the outcome by making it harder or easier.

for example tossing a handful of dust in the other guys face...there is no real way to know if it will work before hand... award a bane to the targets next attack...it's a matter of probability if it works or doesn't work.

If you spray him in the face with military grade tear gas...odds are more than certain that even if he isn't incapacitated, he will have a more difficult time hitting for a few seconds. So the ref adjusts his difficulty levels to reflect this.

this bit of mental processing resolves the issue for me. But I don't expect it to work for everyone.

Short version: If something definitely impacts the difficulty, it should be a DM. If it *might* impact the difficulty, it is a Boon/Bane.

That works for me, thanks wbyrd!

 

[mike wightman]

Which is why it works so well in play to encourage roleplaying. You only get the boon/bane in my games as a result of roleplaying.

 

[estar]

Boon and Bane is an adaptation of Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition Advantage and Disadvantage mechanics. Having refereed two D&D 5e campaigns and played in several other I can say that it is a outstanding mechanics.

Why? Because while it lacks precision it is very easy to apply especially on the fly. In general a advantage/boon is a significant benefit to success and a disadvantage/bane is a significant hindrance to success. The players seem to intuitively understand this mechanic far more than a modifier. For the referees it makes adjudication a lot quicker as you just have to decide whatever the circumstance warrant a advantage/boon or a disadvantage/bane.

Now for some the mechanic is unappealing because they rather precise level of detail. The idea of boon/bane is to simplistic to make the game enjoyable. And that OK but in my experience most gamers do not want to get into that level of detail. They don't care if that when they are sniping somebody they get a +2 bonus for having a spotter on hand versus +1 for having a better scope. They do know that using a spotter or a better scope is better so they should get some benefit from it and saying it is a boon makes the whole process easier and quicker to resolve.

As for the odds, the exact effect depends on the initial chance of success. It is not as great if you are likely to succeed anyway and has it greatest effect in the middle.

For example if you need a 12 or better to succeed you have a 2.78% chance of succeeding. With a boon this becomes a 7.41% chance of succeed. With a straight 2d6 roll 11 or better succeeds 8.3% of the time so the exact bonus you are getting is a hair less than a straight +1 bonus.

For example if you need a 7 or better to succeed you have a 58.33% chance of succeeding. With a boon this becomes a 80.56% chance of succeed. With a straight 2d6 roll 6 or better succeeds 72.77% of the time while 5 or better succeeds 83.33% so the exact bonus you are getting is a hair better than a straight +2.

For example if you need a 7 or better to succeed you have a 58.33% chance of succeeding. With a boon this becomes a 80.56% chance of succeed. With a straight 2d6 roll 6 or better succeeds 72.77% of the time while 5 or better succeeds 83.33% so the exact bonus you are getting is a almost but not quite a +2.

For example if you need a 3 or better to succeed you have a 97.33% chance of succeeding. With a boon this becomes a 99.54% chance of succeed. This is not even equivalent to a +1 bonus. However the virtue of doing it this way that if you had a 3 or better initial odd and the referee gave you a +1, you have no chance of failure. However if a boon is granted there is a still a small chance of failure while still getting a small benefit to success.

In the end the the rule of thumb for this type of mechanics that it benefits the most when you have an average chance of success and the least at the extreme. The main benefit outside of it's simplicity to apply is that at the extremes it still leaves the potential for success or failure where straight modifiers would remove it altogether.

You can check this at http://anydice.com/

I used the following to compare the odds

output 2d6
output [highest 2 of 3d6]
output [lowest 2 of 3d6]
I recommend viewing the graphs using the AT LEAST view.

 

[estar]

The real strength is using it in play - by bypassing additional DMs, it makes the 2D range far more flexible and, once the players know what a Boon or Bane is, play is just that little bit smoother and quicker.

This was one of the areas I was most nervous about unveiling to the world, as it is an actual mechanical change (well, addition) to the past rules set, but it does look like it is solid. The hard part, I think, is going to be deciding when they should be applied over and above Difficulties and DMs - it is a little muddy at the moment but then, that is why we have a playtest!

Having using advantage/disadvantage while refereeing D&D 5e I can say it will have exactly the effect you are looking over.

The only downside is that is not as precise in that if you have two different scopes, one gives you a +2 and a +1 under a modifier system. Under a boon/bane system both will give a boon and that will be that.

I recently ran a D&D 5e campaign that had several hard core GURPS players, the kind that really exercises the options in the rule books. While they liked how it worked, they felt it would not work for their GURPS games because they liked the fine grain modifiers for the things they did and the circumstance they found themselves in.

But for the majority of players who I ran 5e for it, the mechanic was a hit. I found them much more comfortable in coming up with interesting tactics. The same thing will happened with this version for Traveller.

 

[mike wightman]

GURPS is one of the worst offenders in the search for DM paradigm of gaming - note I do not use the term roleplaying.

What I really like about boon/bane is that it allows me and my players to make stuff up that affects the game, without digging through numerous books looking for a half remembered DM that applies in just this situation.

I still only ever use 8+ and 12+ as target numbers for tasks, but boon /bane has definitely had a positive impact to sessions.

 

[Ifandbut]

This [Boon and Bane] is just raising or lowering the difficulty by a different name.

No it is not. I only skimmed the past 2 pages of post but instead of using tables and stuff why dont we just use Anydice.

http://anydice.com/program/6909

That shows the probability curve for a normal 2d6 roll, Boon roll, and Bane roll. In short, you have a 2.78% chance to get a 12 on a 2d6 roll, with Boon that chance more than doubles to 7.41% and with Bane it is 0.46%.

 

[estar]

No it is not. I only skimmed the past 2 pages of post but instead of using tables and stuff why dont we just use Anydice.

http://anydice.com/program/6909

That shows the probability curve for a normal 2d6 roll, Boon roll, and Bane roll. In short, you have a 2.78% chance to get a 12 on a 2d6 roll, with Boon that chance more than doubles to 7.41% and with Bane it is 0.46%.

still less than a +1 bonus. Click at Least and you will see on a normal 2d6 roll to get a 11 or higher you have a 8.33% chance. With a boon rolls to get a 12 increases to 7.41%.

Situation A: A character needs to roll a 12. For whatever reason a +1 bonus is gained. Now the character will succeed on a 11 or 12 a 8.33% chance of success.

Situation B: A characters needs to roll a 12. For whatever reason a boon is gained. Now the character will succeed if the top two dice totals 12 a 7.41% chance of success.

A +1 bonus is slightly better than granting a boon roll when the initial chance of success is 12 or better.

Where the boon/bane system really makes the different is where you have the same situation of the character needing a 12 or better to succeed but is found to suffer from a -1 effect. Now that character has no chance of success.

With a bane there is still a chance of success but it drops to .46% or in rough terms succeeding out 1 out of 217 tries.

My experience with the advantage/disadvantage in D&D 5e is that players respond far more favorably to taking a disadvantage than they ever did with a flat minus. I been refereeing a variety of systems for 30 years and never seen a favorable response like I did with the 5e's advantage/disadvantage system.

Now the downside is that it not fine grained. If part of the game you enjoy is the difference between different scopes, devices, and other gadgets with specific pluses and minuses then boon/bane will cut it for you.

 

[estar]

GURPS is one of the worst offenders in the search for DM paradigm of gaming - note I do not use the term roleplaying.

That a stereotype just like people think D&D it just about dungeon crawling. The reality is that there are GURPS gronards just like Traveller Grognard. THere are GURPS roleplayers just like there are Traveller roleplayer. GURPS can be played with a lot of depth or simply, Traveller is the same way.

My point is that there are gamers who like a fine grained system with a lot of detail. Folks happy with Fire Fusion & Steel versus folks who are happy with Book 2 Starship Creation. And just because a gamer likes FFS doesn't mean his not a roleplayer as well.

I am pointing out not to try to win a debate on the internet but rather there not going to be a clear cut answer one how good boon/bane will be for the various groups playing traveller.

What I really like about boon/bane is that it allows me and my players to make stuff up that affects the game, without digging through numerous books looking for a half remembered DM that applies in just this situation.

I still only ever use 8+ and 12+ as target numbers for tasks, but boon /bane has definitely had a positive impact to sessions.

I will add that boon/bane and 5e's advantage/disadvantage makes the game far more approachable to novice and causal players. They just get it far more than any system of DMs i seen before.

 

[Ifandbut]

still less than a +1 bonus. Click at Least and you will see on a normal 2d6 roll to get a 11 or higher you have a 8.33% chance. With a boon rolls to get a 12 increases to 7.41%.

I never said it was better/worst than a +1 bonus, just that it is not the same as a +1 bonus.

It really depends on the target number if a Boon is better than a +1 bonus. If you have a target number of 8 then a +1 bonus gives you ha 58.33% chance where as Boon gives you 68.06%.

I think that on the extremes a +/- 1 bonus is more powerful but in the middle a Boon/Bane is more powerful.

 

[estar]

I think that on the extremes a +/- 1 bonus is more powerful but in the middle a Boon/Bane is more powerful.

I concur, it match my experiences with the d20 of 5e's advantage/disadvantage.

 

[aramis]

No it is not. I only skimmed the past 2 pages of post but instead of using tables and stuff why dont we just use Anydice.

Precision. Anydice lacks it in the output. Especially on d6's... something about decimal output, binary calculations, multiples of 3...

Plus, showing the work shows others how to do the calculation longhand, and proves the concept far better than a blackbox graph link.

 

[estar]

Precision. Anydice lacks it in the output. Especially on d6's... something about decimal output, binary calculations, multiples of 3...

Plus, showing the work shows others how to do the calculation longhand, and proves the concept far better than a blackbox graph link.

So are the odds displayed by anydice wrong or not?

The problem I have with the analysis I seen so far is that it doesn't reflect how it works.

For example you stat

Standard is mean, median, and mode all 7.
Boon median is 9, mode is also 9, mean is 8.09 or so.
Bane median is 5, mode is 5, mean 5.91 or so.

While accurate it doesn't reflect the fact what happening is that you are trying to roll a target number or higher. So the number that needs to be looked at is the IMPROVEMENT (or PENALTY) in the odds of success. Along comparing it to the effect of a flat bonus (like +1) to the roll.

With a bell curve a flat bonus impact the odds differently depending on what the target number is. For example if I needed a 7 or better then I have a 58.33% chance of success. Or if you want to be absolutely precise then I would make the roll 21 times out of 36 tries.

Adding a +1 modifier the odds of me rolling a success now improves to 83.33 percent an increase of 13.89%.

However if I need a 11+ for success, a +1 will only net me an increase of 8.34% to my odds of success, (8.33 to 16.67).

The effect of boon/bane follows a similar curve than +1. Where it differs is that it is better in the middle and that there is still a chance for success or failure when the odds of success are at the extremes.

 

[estar]

For those who are unhappy with any dice here are the exact odds for normal 2d6, 3d6 boon, and 3d6 bane rolls

 2d6 using 36 tries
 n   div  culm succ
--------------------
 2 - 1/36 36/36
 3 - 2/36 35/36
 4 - 3/36 33/36
 5 - 4/36 30/36
 6 - 5/36 26/36
 7 - 6/36 21/36
 8 - 5/36 15/36
 9 - 4/36 10/36
10 - 3/36  6/36
11 - 2/36  3/36
12 - 1/36  1/36

2d6 using 216 tries
for easy comparison
 n   div    culm succ
--------------------
 2 -  6/216  216/216
 3 - 12/216  210/216
 4 - 18/216  198/216
 5 - 24/216  180/216  
 6 - 30/216  156/216  
 7 - 36/216  126/216  
 8 - 30/216   90/216 
 9 - 24/216   60/216 
10 - 18/216   36/216 
11 - 12/216   18/216 
12 -  6/216    6/216

3d6 using 216 tries
take the two highest
 n   div    culm succ
--------------------
 2 -  1/216  216/216
 3 -  3/216  215/216
 4 -  7/216  212/216
 5 - 12/216  205/216  
 6 - 19/216  193/216  
 7 - 27/216  174/216  
 8 - 34/216  147/216 
 9 - 36/216  113/216 
10 - 34/216   77/216 
11 - 27/216   43/216 
12 - 16/216   16/216

3d6 using 216 tries
take the two lowest
 n   div    culm succ
--------------------
 2 - 16/216  216/216
 3 - 27/216  200/216
 4 - 34/216  173/216
 5 - 36/216  139/216  
 6 - 34/216  103/216  
 7 - 27/216   69/216  
 8 - 19/216   42/216 
 9 - 12/216   23/216 
10 -  7/216   11/216 
11 -  3/216    4/216 
12 -  1/216    1/216

 

[ThornPlutonius]

For those who are unhappy with any dice here are the exact odds for normal 2d6, 3d6 boon, and 3d6 bane rolls

 2d6 using 36 tries
 n   div  culm succ

...delete much crunchiness...

Please pardon my ignorance. What do "div" and "culm succ" stand for? I'm guessing "succ" is success.

 

[atpollard]

For those who are unhappy with any dice here are the exact odds for normal 2d6, 3d6 boon, and 3d6 bane rolls

So a Boon/Bane is within spitting distance of being equal to a +1.5/-1.5

[PS. Nice analysis.]

 

[atpollard]

Please pardon my ignorance. What do "div" and "culm succ" stand for? I'm guessing "succ" is success.

There are 216 possible combinations on 3D6 ...
So "div" is the number of chances to roll exactly that number divided by 216.
"Cum" is the chance of rolling that number or higher (success) divided by 216.