• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Mongoose Traveller Pocket Edition

Um, not entirely correct, the last of the dominoe mission arc was pubed not long ago. If you are referring to rules and crunchy bits, yes. Is that an excuse for the most active thread being "does mongoose traveller leave you cold" followed by a few other largely flamish threads. :nonono:

1248 recently went out of print, not a lot of criticism there either.:confused:

If being the only living version of Traveller means being the whipping boy, some folks need a new diversion. Go kick a cop, or a gang member, don't crap all over fellow Travellers, its unseemly.
 
I was really hoping that with hunter's pronouncement that the rancor would be at an end here...on both sides.

Aramis has a right to his opinion. I disagree with him on some of it, agree on others. I look at the game line as a whole and I like it. Some people look at individual parts and don't.

Quite frankly, this thread was about the Mongoose Pocket Edition. Going on about the other books at great length here is off-topic. At least as much as it has been happening.

Allen
 
I would like to start by saying, I am probably one of the longest Traveller player you will ever meet. My orginal Traveller univers actually predates the release of the very first Spinward Marches suplement. Based roughly (very rougly) off a near space star map, I had a nine subsector map "world" with Sol at the center, the capital of the "Empire". I have bought and, with the exceptions of 4E, played every version of traveller as they came out.

Having stated that, I turst you can understand that I feel I have some qualifications to speak on the subject. I may not be an expert, or even very bright, but over the years I feel a few things may have sunk into my thick skull.

First off, typos in MGT. Okay, I still have my orginal printing of the first Mega Traveller book, puchased the first week it was out. The thing is riddled with typos. Even with the state of games in the 80's it was legendary for them. The usually answer I get to that is something along the lines of, "They corrected most of them in later printings." Or the fact that I can now find all the errata on line. Which was never published by a company, but by fans. Did the typos in any way spoil my enjoyment of the game. Not in the least! If chart was wrong, or missing, or a rule didn't work as writen, we just worked around it. We were paying a role playing game amongst friends, not playing a war game or looking for an accurate simulation .

Secondly, I'm always amused when someone says something about this thing or that thing not being "Traveller" in spirit. Many of you may find this hard to believe by Traveller was considered a "genric" set of sci-fi role playing rules. Trust me, for its day, it really was. I had a few others before it (such as Heritage Minitures Star Trek). All of them came with a very set "world". Early articals for Traveller "borrowed" heavily from what ever movies were popular. Most were not very offical but some were (I still have my copy of JTAS with the states for the "Alien"). If someone wanted "Lens Men" or "Lightsaber" in their Traveller campaign no one would pipe up with, "But that's not Traveller!"

Now on to MGT. Is it full of typos? Yup. Are there rules I think are poorly done? Yup. Are thier things in there that I don't like? Yup. Does it ruin my enjoyment? Not in the least! I do what I have alway done. Work around the, come up with my own rules, change things I don't like. Yes, I am playing MGT. I have introduced it to several people that were absolutely amazed by it. (My local hobby store owner claims I am solely responicble for making it her best selling game).

MGT is, like all role playing games, is merely a frame work for you to game in. It is not some hard and fast set of rules, merely guide lines. If you do not like MGT, that's too bad. I like, and I am playing it. I like that it is simple. I know that doesn't make sence to those players that like having to have a computer spread sheet to build a ship. Or to those that like a combat system that is basicly a war game. But I like the facts that the mechanics do not slow down the "role playing" element.
 
...

Edit:P.S. Just took a cruise through the other sections, Low and Behold, not a stitch of criticism, or even a whiff of sarcasm. Why should that be? I had a lot of issues with some other traveller iterations, do I go about venting my spleen on the relevent boards? No, I do not. Perhaps its beacause I was raised to be better than that, or because I have a basic sense of respect for anyone who plays RPG of any kind. Trolls are as Trolls do, to put it simply.

Well IMO, partly I agree with aramis. Also with a new release and publicity from Mongoose, Traveller has drawn lots of new fans. Which in turns brings new things and ideas. At least to those new fans. With the old fans, it's old news and they don't want to hear about it again or deal with it again. (slight blown out of portion but the same thing I saw with BattleTech when MechWarrior:DarkAge came out in Clicky base)
And sometimes the new ideas are really great and some of the old guys just don't like them because they didn't think of it.
And Change, is another reason. No matter what or how Mongoose (or any company including Marc himself) updates Classic Traveller, there will be those that just don't like it. IMO, it is because the updated ideas were not theirs.

I don't know how many of you played MUD's MOO, etc but about every 2 years the same problems in player based issues would come around. I started keeping some of the better posts and when a new issue (old issue to me) came up, I would just find the really good post that addressed it the best and repost it.

Dave Chase
 
ThunderChilde: None of the other COTI sub-boards have active releases, either.
I think Aramis has hit the nail on the head here.

MgT could be so much better with just a bit more effort - send me one copy of each new book and I'd pick up most of the glaringly stupid stuff like missing charts, wrong contents pages etc.

Those sorts of mistakes really don't have any excuses in this day and age - produce a preview pdf and mail it to trusted nit pickers.

MgT receives more criticism than the other versions because it is living - it can be changed and made better. No one will release a definitive print edition of MT with all errata applied, or TNE, or T4 etc.
 
I would like to start by saying, I am probably one of the longest Traveller player you will ever meet. My orginal Traveller univers actually predates the release of the very first Spinward Marches suplement. Based roughly (very rougly) off a near space star map, I had a nine subsector map "world" with Sol at the center, the capital of the "Empire". I have bought and, with the exceptions of 4E, played every version of traveller as they came out.

Having stated that, I turst you can understand that I feel I have some qualifications to speak on the subject. I may not be an expert, or even very bright, but over the years I feel a few things may have sunk into my thick skull.

We could quibble over a few months here and there, but I also started with Traveller in 1979. I was at the local convention seminar run by Marc wherein he handed out the first short document on the alien races. My copy of the old black box still had pinnaces in the Type C.

Age and length of experience doesn't seem to make a difference. The whole range of attitudes is present across the entire seniority range of Traveller players.
 
We could quibble over a few months here and there, but I also started with Traveller in 1979.
Hey, we could almost found a club ! ;)

I had Traveller in 1978, but could not start playing it until 1979, because it
was extremely difficult to find people both interested in roleplaying and able
to understand enough English to read the rules.
 
I think Aramis has hit the nail on the head here.

MgT could be so much better with just a bit more effort - send me one copy of each new book and I'd pick up most of the glaringly stupid stuff like missing charts, wrong contents pages etc.

Those sorts of mistakes really don't have any excuses in this day and age - produce a preview pdf and mail it to trusted nit pickers.

MgT receives more criticism than the other versions because it is living - it can be changed and made better. No one will release a definitive print edition of MT with all errata applied, or TNE, or T4 etc.

Very few companies do what you have suggested above and those are generally companies that use the PDF sales to allow them to print the book in the first place. The ability to use the PDF purchasers as editors is a nice side-effect but is not the primary motivator.

The problem is, much of this criticism from people regarding MGT comes from people who have never worked in the RPG industry and really have no idea of the situation. Yes, we'd all like to see typos reducd and yes it seems like Mongoose has a lot of them...until you look at the rest of the industry and find out that they are about average in this respect.

The reason is: this is a small niche industry, editing is a skill (or more accurately a set of skills) than can make you pretty good money in OTHER sorts of publishing, and the vast majority of RPG companies can't afford to pay enough to have editing of the quality that some of the pickier people around here seem to think they should.

I really don't think, for example, that MGT has come anywhere near the Imperium Games Line (analagous to the Mendoza Line in baseball) for editing issues.

As my dad liked to say, "some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope"

Allen
 
Over here the low end of the price range for professional proofreading is
about 3,- Euro (approximately 4,- USD) for 30 lines of 55 signs (including
empty spaces), which is about one standard page.

Professional proofreading for a book of the size of the MGT core rulebook
would cost over here at least about 900,- USD, more likely about 1,500,-
USD, and even more if you have to find someone who knows a specific
terminology beyond common usage (e.g. for the weapon descriptions in
Mercenary).
 
Professional proofreading is not essential; in fact, in technical writing of various specialty fields, it often results in introducing errors unless the proofreader is trained in said field.

However, the level of writing quality and layout checking across the industry is BETTER than what Mongoose has been willing to deliver. Given their rapid schedule, it is also obvious that very little playtesting can have been done, if any. There is also little evidence, and insufficient time in their schedules, to have playtested the supplements well, if at all.
 
Last edited:
Professional proofreading is not essential; in fact, in technical writing of various specialty fields, it often results in introducing errors unless the proofreader is trained in said field.

However, the level of writing quality and layout checking across the industry is BETTER than what Mongoose has been willing to deliver. Given their rapid schedule, it is also obvious that very little playtesting can have been done, if any. There is also little evidence, and insufficient time in their schedules, to ahve playtested the supplements well, if at all.

Aside from the list of accredited playtesters in each book, you mean? All game companies, from the biggest to the smallest have errata in their book releases. The better companies produce errata documents after their releases, as Mongoose does. There is no real evidence, beyond your own assertions and anecdotes to suggest that Mongoose is any different in standards.

And to bring it back to the Pocket book again, it again needs to be restated what the criticisms were: that one sidebar table got nerfed by mistake, and one of the deckplans has gone wonky. All the deckplans are already available as free pdfs, and indeed on the practicable level you would need to download them to use them anyway. The missing table is more of an issue, although it is quite easy to remember a ratio of accumulating a level of 1 ton of fuel per week, per level of Power Plant rating.

But lets put this into context:

- The D&D 4th edition Player's Handbook, released this year, had 11 pages of errata in it to correct from it's initial print run;
- The Star Wars Saga edition had an entire print run with several blanked out pages in it;
- SJGames' GURPS actually has an errata mailing list you can join.
- Ars Magica 4th edition forgot to include a difficulty table for it's core mechanic and left it like this for about 8 years;
- Wraith the Oblivion forgot to include any concrete rules for Willpower, Pathos and Passions in both editions of the game;
- The Great Pendragon Campaign didn't include an index;
- Serenity RPG didn't include an index or a character sheet;
- Call of Cthulhu's Beyond the Mountains of Madness had a contents page that had every chapter listed with identical page numbers;
- Castles and Crusades frequently gets pillared by fans for it's 'standards';
- Classic games like Call of Cthulhu, Vampire: the Masquerade and Feng Shui are littered with errata, as have been loads of Traveller releases in the past too.
- Loads of 'Indie' games have terrible writing habits and poor grammar.


Sure, there is a couple of mistakes in the Pocket book, and some of the other Mongoose releases, but you are being one-eyed in your criticisms by suggesting that Mongoose are on a different level to any other gaming company.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've complained about the SJGames "Playtest" process (which generally isn't playtest, it's proofread) since I first encountered it with GT:BTC. Some products had playtest windows of less than 4 weeks.

Not including an index, while not a popular design choice, is not a QC issue.
Not including a character sheet might or might not be; Mouseguard doesn't either, since it's a different size from the book.
GPC was quite useable without an index; there is little need for one.
Ars Magic doesn't use difficulty levels as a default; the table being left out is no major loss. I've run it. the missing table is nigh totally irrelevant.

Now, as for mongoose: they have never corrected the PDF for RQ... more than 2 years after they identified the issue with the combat table, which is a core component.

They leap to release, as does WOTC, SJG, and often WWG. They take unneded shortcuts; shortcuts that should not be taken.

That the big companies have chosen to release before readiness is the driving force in laziness. It's still not acceptable.

Products like Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and several other high-end indies take the time to test. It sure slows supplements, but it makes for much better work.
 
There are moments when I feel a bit confused ... ;)

Most professional proofreaders will lack the context to catch many of the rules errors. Unless they happen to also be roleplayers, or, like BWHQ does, have a clear style guide, they are quite likely to induce errors.

Putting 10 sets of eyes who know the writing style is by far better than one set of paid eyes who doesn't understand what they are looking at. See also the issues with BI's WFRP2E... the errata issues are all rules elements. They caught the typos, but Simon rejected the idea that the text itself could be wrong... and therefore some rules issues escaped.
 
A semi-related question: while we're talking about MGP fixing things in subsequent printings, how do we know which printing is which? I've looked all over the copy of MHG I just bought and I haven't found any indication of print run number, yet that number is referenced to know how broken the book is. (Mine has the wrong TOC, so it shouldn't be too broken, fingers crossed.)

For the PDFs, do they show if they're updated or not?
 
Now, as for mongoose: they have never corrected the PDF for RQ... more than 2 years after they identified the issue with the combat table, which is a core component.

They did produce an errata file for RQ, and an 'Deluxe edition' on the request of fans. They also provide the entire RQ pdf for free. So it's still worth complaining about?

Products like Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and several other high-end indies take the time to test. It sure slows supplements, but it makes for much better work.

Frankly, these types of Indie games do not represent either a successful business model on the scale that Mongoose publish on, nor the type of product that I would be wanting them to emulate. Neither book is particularly well written from a professional point of view. Sorcerer is a game literally written as a polemic, and The Burning Wheel with a waffly style with goals that most casual gamers care little about. Neither game has a professional remit for proofreading, as the creators aren't answerable to anybody but themselves, and playtesting is really just a matter of personal pride and is done by 'friendly' sources that have already bought into the idea.

Anyway....

They leap to release, as does WOTC, SJG, and often WWG. They take unneded shortcuts; shortcuts that should not be taken.

At least we have now established that you hold the production standards of the D&D, GURPS and WoD range in equal contempt. That in itself, states everything, and I don't think Mongoose will be particularly unhappy that you are grouping them into that company.

Ars Magic doesn't use difficulty levels as a default; the table being left out is no major loss. I've run it. the missing table is nigh totally irrelevant.

That's not true - and is why they ensured that the missing table was included in the 5th edition (as it had been in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions). It was a blatent ommission in the 4th edition.

Oh, and here is the Ars Magica errata list too, in case you think they didn't make any other mistakes:

http://www.atlas-games.com/arm5/arm5errata.php#AG0205-1

Oh, and WFRP errata:

http://www.naturaltwenty.com/wfrp/errata.pdf
 
Last edited:
A semi-related question: while we're talking about MGP fixing things in subsequent printings, how do we know which printing is which? I've looked all over the copy of MHG I just bought and I haven't found any indication of print run number, yet that number is referenced to know how broken the book is. (Mine has the wrong TOC, so it shouldn't be too broken, fingers crossed.)

For the PDFs, do they show if they're updated or not?

You can tell if it's the updated 4th printing because the character sheet in the back has red bits in it.

The Drivethru PDF of Traveller is fully updated too, and doesn't have either of the two issues highlighted here for the pocketbook. The reason why these two things have popped up for the pocketbook is to do with shrinking the layout to pocket-size.
 
You can tell if it's the updated 4th printing because the character sheet in the back has red bits in it.
Mine doesn't have any character sheet in the back. My TMB has a character sheet in the back, but it's an earlier printing. Same problem, there's no clear indicator of which printing is which.
The Drivethru PDF of Traveller is fully updated too, and doesn't have either of the two issues highlighted here for the pocketbook. The reason why these two things have popped up for the pocketbook is to do with shrinking the layout to pocket-size.

How do we tell? If I have two PDFs of MGT, do I have to side-by-side compare them to figure out which is the better copy?
 
Well, professional proof readers or not

I think it is a good idea to let someone who is not closely tied to the game but who knows the game very well AND has a good level of reading skills to over look the rules, supplements or additions before it goes to press.

In once incident, I was gone doing PR/marketing/Tournament stuff for my company. I was on the road for about 2 months. The company decided to produce a supplement and send it off to be published before I got to look at it. (Part of my job was to review everything that was produced, state my opinion with documents/facts if I felt something was not right.)
The supplement was broken because one of the characters was designed by an individual who had just started working on that line. They were using the mindset and character building rules of the other game line when they designed it. (They were very similar games but some of the abilities had major differences.) It changed the way the game was played and became a very unbalancing.

As the final rules Overlord, I had to look at how bad it unbalanced the gameplay. Because of the issue and feelings behind it, the owner let me make the final determination on the supplement. Pull it, salavge it or ignore the issues raised by our fan base. After 2 weeks of research, playtesting inside and out (since it was already released it was just asking for players opinions) I determined that it was too late to pull the product as that would make many buyers mad. It was not possible to errata the supplement as that would allow for future errataing when ever felt was like it.
My ruling was that the supplement could not be used in official tournament play. Period. It could be used in friendly play, scenario play or how ever but NO Official Tournament play.

On another product, we had lots of playtesting by gamers, Official 'highly qualified proof readers and a very good licensor that went over the game twice. But once it hit the open market we were overwhelmed with FAQ's, more than I or anyone else expected.
Why, because the powers at be said no outside play testing and no public viewing until releassed. I honestly did not think it was going to be so bad when I OK the release of the game. Lesson learned: make sure that a game (after Beta) who has a very specialized target audience (here the general public nongamer) is play tested by that audience at least twice. The rules were just too difficult for most to understand being that they were nongamers. Should have had pictures with the rules.

Both of the above companies were large and had a very large (international) market and were hugely popular companies. Mistakes can be made even with all the checks and balances.

I personaly have not seen the MgT yet. I would have hoped that it would be mostly error free. When the game is mainly words, I believe that there is less room for text like errors to be allowed to goto print. On mechanics (game or not) it is harder to catch all the errors. The more eyes (knowledgible ones) that can look over a product the better.

I will be buying MgT as money permits. So, I am not trying to be negative toward a product that I have not seen. Hence my reason for buying T5 before it was released, so that I could not 'bitch' afterwards because I had my chance before it went public.

Dave Chase
 
Products like Sorcerer, Burning Wheel, and several other high-end indies take the time to test. It sure slows supplements, but it makes for much better work.
Burning Wheel ... :oo:

The Monster Burner has 14 pages of errata, you can download the file from
the Burning Wiki.
 
Back
Top