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Mongoose - traveller returns

That won't help if your company is based in a country that honors and upholds copyright law. But it is often much cheaper to have it printed there and shipped here than to have it printed here!

But lesson No. 2 means that my "company" has no assets. ;) Just rent a new trailer and re-incorporate with a new Roman numeral after the name. :)


[EDIT: For the record, I have no desire to enter the publishing business. This is all "tongue in cheek" speculation for fun to me.

I have enough challenges at work explaining to biologists and civil engineers at government agencies tasked with protecting the environment, that filling in a wetland, building a hotel complex on the site and planting weeds in the storm water pond will actually benefit the environment and my project meets the "public interest test". Did you know that migrating birds are part of “interstate commerce”? A safe nesting site benefits the protected birds and is “in the public interest”.

I do not need copyright lawsuits to make life interesting.]
 
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Would help if you can tinker the mechanics around a bit too, but basically yes. ;)

Let me be a bit more specific however, we are talking about the actual mechanics. And you better be damn careful how you do it. As tbeard was saying, it's not something that has ever really been tested in the courts. If you do it and you do get hit, you better be able to prove that what you have is original material even though the concepts and mechanics are from another system.

Breaking my own rule...I'd like to point out a couple of risks.

The US Copyright office probably has the most succint explanation of copyrighting games:

The idea for a game is not protected by copyright. The same is true of the name or title given to the game and of the method or methods for playing it."

"Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles."


http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

However, this statement could be misleading. The name or title of a game isn't protected by copyright, but *is* protected by trademark (a completely different section of the law).

So while you can recreate the rules to D&D, you'd better NOT name your game "Dungeons and Dragons" unless you yearn to get to know Hasbro's legal team... And in the RPG context, many things can be trademarked, such as titles of games, names for systems (like, for instance "D20 System"), names of monsters, etc. From the WOTC OGL, a list of things *not* covered by the OGL (and probably trademarked):

"Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master, Monster Manual, d20 System, Wizards of the Coast, d20 (when used as a trademark), Forgotten Realms, Faerûn, proper names (including those used in the names of spells or items), places, Red Wizard of Thay, the City of Union, Heroic Domains of Ysgard, Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo, Windswept Depths of Pandemonium, Infinite Layers of the Abyss, Tarterian Depths of Carceri, Gray Waste of Hades, Bleak Eternity of Gehenna, Nine Hells of Baator, Infernal Battlefield of Acheron, Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia, Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia, Twin Paradises of Bytopia, Blessed Fields of Elysium, Wilderness of the Beastlands, Olympian Glades of Arborea, Concordant Domain of the Outlands, Sigil, Lady of Pain, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, beholder, gauth, carrion crawler, tanar’ri, baatezu, displacer beast, githyanki, githzerai, mind flayer, illithid, umber hulk, yuan-ti."

In addition, while game rules cannot be copyrighted, I think that game settings should be copyrightable in the same way that characters and "scenes a faire" in novels can. I've seen no law on this (yet), but I strongly suggest that you don't lift the Greyhawk setting for your new game.

Also, as you noted, game mechanics (like many ideas) *may* be protected by patents. The good news is that patents are expensive to get and I am unaware of any patents for RPG rules. WOTC was awarded a patent on the collectible card game strategy (applied for in 2002; announced in May, 2007). However, the award of a patent only creates a presumption that the patent is valid. This presumption can be overcome if the defendant can produce sufficient evidence that the patent is invalid. I have not heard that WOTC has sued any other CCG manufacturers (yet).

A very interesting experiment going on right now is OSRIC which is basically an OGL version of AD&D. It is based on the d20 SRD only where they felt they couldn't directly based it off the original AD&D system. Which goes to my point about something released as OGL that might have potential problems if WotC decides they want to challenge it. If I as a publisher chose to produce material using OSRIC and WotC later decides to challenge it and does manage to win, they could and likely would force me to recall any remaining books in the distribution channel (which I would have to refund) and destroy the remaining stocks.

In my opinion, anyone who relies on an OGL has an affirmative obligation to comply with its terms. The WOTC OGL explicitely address this point:

"If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License."

So, the (example) OSRIC people are agreeing that they will only license material that they have the legal right to license in the OGL.

"You agree not to Use any Product Identity [i.e., things not covered by the OGL], including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity."

Here, the OSRIC people are agreeing to not use non-OGL material in their product unless they have the legal right to do so.

In my opinion, it's incumbent on anyone who relies on *any* licensing agreement to understand its terms and conduct reasonable due diligence to determine if the licensed material is, in fact, owned by the licensor.

I think I now understand your concern, Hunter. The OGL may be a wonderful thing, but it is still a serious legal contract. Unrepresented non-lawyers should always be careful when relying on such contracts. And while game companies will typically have experience with contracts (and lawyers to review them), casual gamers probably won't. In that case, caution is warranted. At the very least, a gamer should NEVER assume that everything in a work is Open Content. The most sensible (and safe) approach is to assume that *only* material in the SRD (referenced by the OGL) is Open Content. And, of course, OGLs may vary; be sure to read the one that's applicable to your situation. (Mongoose uses the Wizards of the Coast OGL).

Anyone who wants to publish something should probably allocate some money to get an opinion from a lawyer...

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the OSRIC folks will not run afoul of WOTC unless they do something really stupid, like use trademarked terms that are not covered by the OGL.

It is interesting that Kenzer & Co chose to explicitely license the AD&D system from WOTC when they published Hackmaster. I suspect that they did this so that they could use AD&D text, images, and terms verbatim without worry. If they didn't, I think that WOTC could have made a strong case for both copyright infringement and trademark infringement (if they desired to do so).

AThat won't help if your company is based in a country that honors and upholds copyright law. But it is often much cheaper to have it printed there and shipped here than to have it printed here!

I'd add that unauthorized distribution of a copyrighted work is itself a copyright infringement, subject to the copyright laws of the jurisdiction in which the work was distributed. So printing the work in China won't help you if you distribute it in the US.

[Mandatory CYA disclaimer]: I am a lawyer, but I'm not YOUR lawyer. What I post in this forum is not legal advice and should not be relied on by anyone. Any legal opinions or information that I may publish here are exclusively for purposes of entertainment. No reader should ever rely upon any legal opinions or other information published here — not even just a little bit! If you need legal advice, HIRE A LAWYER. duly licensed to practice law. I don't even pretend to be as careful in what I may spout off with here as any lawyer must be in advising and representing real clients.
 
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Addendum--

An example of not complying with the terms of the OGL (and possibly jeopardizing others who rely on it) might be the Mongoose deal.

Mongoose must have MWM's permission (under its agreement with MWM)to legally license Traveller material as Open Content under the OGL--and I'm pretty sure it does.

If Mongoose didn't have the right to license Traveller material as Open Content under the OGL, MWM would be able to sue for copyright infringement and require Mongoose to remove the material, pay damages, etc. In addition, MWM would be able to enforce his rights against folks who used the Traveller material and assumed that Mongoose had the right to license Traveller material via the OGL.

The sensible thing to do -- especially if you're gonna sell your product -- would be to simply ask MWM whether Mongoose has the right to license that material via the OGL (and keep the email). Ideally, MWM would confirm this on the Far Future website, to keep from being asked that question a thousand times.
 
More like Trademark Litigation....hehehe...

TBeard:

WOTC has sued to enforce their trademark on the specific mechanic of "Tapping" cards.

Haven't seen that one, but I just found that WizKidz has sued WOTC and is attempting to get a declaratory judgment that the WOTC patent on CCGs is invalid.
 
I think I now understand your concern, Hunter. The OGL may be a wonderful thing, but it is still a serious legal contract. Unrepresented non-lawyers should always be careful when relying on such contracts. And while game companies will typically have experience with contracts (and lawyers to review them), casual gamers probably won't. In that case, caution is warranted. At the very least, a gamer should NEVER assume that everything in a work is Open Content. The most sensible (and safe) approach is to assume that *only* material in the SRD (referenced by the OGL) is Open Content. And, of course, OGLs may vary; be sure to read the one that's applicable to your situation. (Mongoose uses the Wizards of the Coast OGL).

Exactly! And thank you for posting your other points. All great advice!
 
Exactly! And thank you for posting your other points. All great advice!

Thanks. Sometimes, I forget that most other gamers aren't lawyers...

And honestly, I hadn't really considered the effect of the OGL from the standpoint of a casual gamer rather than a game publisher.
 
It is interesting that Kenzer & Co chose to explicitely license the AD&D system from WOTC when they published Hackmaster. I suspect that they did this so that they could use AD&D text, images, and terms verbatim without worry. If they didn't, I think that WOTC could have made a strong case for both copyright infringement and trademark infringement (if they desired to do so).

My understanding is that the Kenzer Hackmaster license was in return for a settlement by WotC on an infringement suit by Kenzer over KoDT. I may be wrong though. That license just ended by the way.
 
My understanding is that the Kenzer Hackmaster license was in return for a settlement by WotC on an infringement suit by Kenzer over KoDT. I may be wrong though. That license just ended by the way.

From what I just skimmed, there was never a suit betwixt WOTC and Kenzer & Co. Rather, they settled things without litigation and pretty quickly. The employees of Kenzer & Co. are apparently under a Nondisclosure Agreement (very common with settlements) so it's unclear exactly what they argued about. The most common speculation -- never confirmed or denied by K&Co or WOTC as far as I can tell -- seems to be that K&Co disputed WOTC's inclusion of KODT strips in its Dragon Magazine CD-ROM compilation.

In any case, getting an AD&D license for the Hackmaster system makes a lot of sense to me. While K&Co could assert a number of defenses -- satire, noncopyrightability of systems, etc. -- it would be FAR cleaner and less costly to simply get WOTC's agreement that Hackmaster was OK.

Has K&Co made any announcements about whether Hackmaster will continue after the license expires?

EDIT: Found an answer. From Wikipedia, the Source of All Knowledge in the Cosmos:
On July 11, 2007, Kenzer & Company announced that their license agreement with Wizards of the Coast would expire in August of that year. The loss of the license means that existing works containing licensed text would not be reprinted and that future editions of the game would not contain material copyrighted by Wizards.
 
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Jolly and Dave HAVE confirmed that the Dragon CD was a significant issue between them and WOTC. They have not said it was the only one. They did file, and did settle before hearings, WRT the Dragon CD.

In short, the Dragon CD is permanently OOP, since TSR didn't secure the rights properly for reprints, let alone electronic reprints. There is a whole thread on that over at K&Co.
 
If I remember correctly, Trademarks are renewable but copyrights eventually expire. When does Dragon Magazine enter public domain?

If the copyrights last 100 years, then we could start seeing reprints in another 70 years or so. :) I'll put them next to my 1923 Sears catalog reprint.
 
The current outline suggests the book would come in at 160 pages, but having our own printing monster means that we can be flexible on that. I'm certainly comfortable with a 160-page length - it's short enough to be manageable, but not so short that all the core material can't be covered.

Sounds like the perfect size.
 
Copyright: At least 70 years by current laws in the US. supposedly non-renewable; used to be 26 years, renewable for 26 more, or life+20, whichever was shorter.

Trademark: Lasts indefinitely. Essentially, lasts as long as defended.

Patent: 7-20 years, depending upon type of item or process. Non-renewable.
 
Copyright: At least 70 years by current laws in the US.

Good news. If the first issue of Dragon was published about 30 years ago, then we have only 40 more years until we see a reprint of Dragon #1. :)

When is the singularity going to happen? Do we have enough time to reprint the issues before we evolve into a new life form (that will understand the importance of 2D6 for science fiction games). ;)
 
Unless something DRASTIC changes, it never will.

Mainly because WEDCo/Disney will keep lobbying to extend copyright to protect Steamboat Willie. Every time it comes close, WEDCo funds copyright extension lobbying.
 
Agreed that this is the current state of the law. As I said earlier: "Ideas cannot be copyrighted, but their expression can. This glib statement has proven difficult to apply in the Real World. Thus, business were unsure as to just how much they could take from (say) AD&D without infringeing on TSR/WOTC intellectual property. And even if a defendant ultimately won, the cost of fighting might put him out of business."

GDW was sued by TSR for allegedly publishing products derivative of D&D and AD&D . . . the list of derivative points included things like using dice to create random character attributes and to resolve combat. Another allegation was having a game version of a spell to heal wounds. It was two years before the case was settled (out of court).

So yes, you can be sued for almost anything, and it can take a while for the legal bills to stop. Fortunately, GDW's license contract for the intellecual property involved had a "hold harmless" clause so we didn't have to pay the legal bills. Frank Chadwick DID have to waste a lot of time answering depositions, however.

Originally Posted by aramis
WOTC has sued to enforce their trademark on the specific mechanic of "Tapping" cards.

TBeard:

Haven't seen that one, but I just found that WizKidz has sued WOTC and is attempting to get a declaratory judgment that the WOTC patent on CCGs is invalid.

IIRC, the "tapping" thing is the patent that WotC got nearly a decade ago, and then sent letters to every gaming company who published a game with cards in it. GDW got one, but we had no games that used the "tapping" mechanic. As far as I know, this patent has never been the subject of litigation.

Also IIRC, the issue in the WizKidz/WotC is _another_ patent, something about games with pieces that are disassembled to represent damage received . . . or something. I am not a lawyer, so I don't follow these things very closely.
 
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GDW was sued by TSR for allegedly publishing products derivative of D&D and AD&D . . . the list of derivative points included things like using dice to create random character attributes and to resolve combat. Another allegation was having a game version of a spell to heal wounds. It was two years before the case was settled (out of court).

So yes, you can be sued for almost anything, and it can take a while for the legal bills to stop. Fortunately, GDW's license contract for the intellecual property involved had a "hold harmless" clause so we didn't have to pay the legal bills. Frank Chadwick DID have to waste a lot of time answering depositions, however.

Yep, the incidental cost of litigation can be significant. In my experience, this can exceed the amounts being fought over. The problem is that most folks (even business owners) fail to consider the value of their time. So when (say) Frank Chadwick spent 20 hours preparing for and attending depositions, GDW lost the value of 20 hours of his time in addition to the legal fees incurred. If his time was worth (say) $50 per hour to GDW, then the deposition effectively cost $1000 + legal fees. Because this is a non-cash expenditure, it's often overlooked by the parties.

As a business litigator (usually defense) I ALWAYS explain the purpose of the legal system to my clients:

The law is not designed to produce truth or even justice. It is solely designed to resolve disuptes between the parties without gunfire. It accomplishes this objective by being expensive, time consuming, burdensome and incredibly unpleasant. The reason 95% of lawsuits settle is that eventually most folks get tired of paying legal fees.

I then show them a graph illustrating the estimated cumulative cost of a lawsuit at each stage--filing the answer, completing discovery, mandatory mediation, trial prep, etc. I then ask "where, on this timeline do you want me to get serious about settling this case?"

I'd also note that while GDW was fortunate in having an enforceable "hold harmless" provision, such provisions are only valuable if they can be enforced -- i.e., the indemnifying party actually has assets that the indemnified party can reach.

IIRC, the "tapping" thing is the patent that WotC got nearly a decade ago, and then sent letters to every gaming company who published a game with cards in it. GDW got one, but we had no games that used the "tapping" mechanic. As far as I know, this patent has never been the subject of litigation.

Also IIRC, the issue in the WizKidz/WotC is _another_ patent, something about games with pieces that are disassembled to represent damage received . . . or something. I am not a lawyer, so I don't follow these things very closely.

I sporadically follow them. I personally don't think that WOTC will prevail in the patent suit if it goes the distance. But I also doubt it will go the distance -- remember, ~95% of civil suits settle.

If WOTC's legal team agrees with me, I'd expect them to settle with WizKidz -- probably by granting them a very cheap license to use WOTC's purportedly patented process, in exchange for dropping the suit and signing a very comprehensive non-disclosure agreement. That way, WizKidz gets what it wants and WOTC preserves its purported patent.

On the other hand, if WizKidz legal team thinks that it will probably lose (or if WizKidz thinks the suit will be too costly to continue), I'd expect them to settle with WOTC -- probably by purchasing a license to use WOTC's purportedly patented process, in exchange for dropping the suit and signing a very comprehensive non-disclosure agreement. In that case, WizKidz gets as good a deal as it can and WOTC preserves its purported license and avoids the risk and expense of trial.

And in either case, third parties will not know who actually got the better deal since everyone will be under an NDA.
 
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Well unless the technology is upgraded in the new versions to what we have now then it is going to be laughed at by potential players who wern't even in school or born when CT first emerged.

It may be just an impression I have, but allmost all the current stuff available is bought by people who already played earlier version (except those who still play CT of course). Is there any indication of whether new players have been picking up on Traveller?
 
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