More Than Just A Furry Suit
- Thread starter kurtis
- Start date
^ I always had more problems with the human PC's (who assumed my character is just some guy in a suit) when I tried to play a Vargr to part.
IMHO, Vargr are very Klingon like in a group setting; i.e. they are constantly looking to one up the leader and take control of the group (atleast socially). My Vargr corsair thought the human captain of the ship showed weakness by turning tail from a local patrol ship, so he forced a confrontation with the captain, who flinched again. That was enough for the Vargr, who immediately beat the human into submission and took command of the human's ship.
Needless to say, the reaction from the player of the human captain was to immediately question my parent's marriage vows and my mother's occupation prior to my birth
But I thought I was right on target, particularly for a Vargr who was conditioned by years of living with his own kind.
IMHO, Vargr are very Klingon like in a group setting; i.e. they are constantly looking to one up the leader and take control of the group (atleast socially). My Vargr corsair thought the human captain of the ship showed weakness by turning tail from a local patrol ship, so he forced a confrontation with the captain, who flinched again. That was enough for the Vargr, who immediately beat the human into submission and took command of the human's ship.
Needless to say, the reaction from the player of the human captain was to immediately question my parent's marriage vows and my mother's occupation prior to my birth
But I thought I was right on target, particularly for a Vargr who was conditioned by years of living with his own kind.Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
signless, I take it you mean the Vargr had pet cats?! Priceless!
What? You don't work in a corporation that acts and thinks like that. Every manager terrified of showing weakness, and every wannabe manager looking to take their place?
Dog-eat-Dog with extra ketchup.
Vargr are just somewhat more open about it.</font>[/QUOTE](laugh) yeah, my boss is doing this right now.
this comparison doesn't work. you don't just walk up from the mail room, beat up a manager, and tell everyone that you have his job now. no-one would accept that, and it wouldn't work even if they did.
Fly,
Ever see any of those National Geo/Discovery Channel specials on wolf packs; there's an Alpha who's always constantly on the look out for potential rivals, a Beta who spends half their time supporting the Alpha and half their time undermining the Alpha, and lastly an Omega who gets whooped on by the entire pack. This behaviour is exhibited even in pups.
Regardless of whether you think a society can work this way, as far as I can tell, Vargr space and behaviour IS modeled after wolf pack dynamics; i.e. extreme balkanization, political turmoil, constant succession of leaders, warlords who maintain their powerbase thru acts of violence, etc.
As for a means of governance, it might not be successful for humans, but it seems to maintain order among wolves and Klingons
Ever see any of those National Geo/Discovery Channel specials on wolf packs; there's an Alpha who's always constantly on the look out for potential rivals, a Beta who spends half their time supporting the Alpha and half their time undermining the Alpha, and lastly an Omega who gets whooped on by the entire pack. This behaviour is exhibited even in pups.
Regardless of whether you think a society can work this way, as far as I can tell, Vargr space and behaviour IS modeled after wolf pack dynamics; i.e. extreme balkanization, political turmoil, constant succession of leaders, warlords who maintain their powerbase thru acts of violence, etc.
As for a means of governance, it might not be successful for humans, but it seems to maintain order among wolves and Klingons
Not to mention the Solomani. Just ask the Vilani and Bwaps.Originally posted by Ran Targas:
As for a means of governance, it might not be successful for humans, but it seems to maintain order among wolves and Klingons
You see, the thing to remember is that all this stuff is relative. Yes, by the standards of the 1100 year rrr-Imperium, Vargr states tend to be unstable. By our present day standards, lots of them are doubtless absolute bastions of stability. How old is the oldest _genuinely_ continuously existing government on Earth?
For what it's worth, in parliamentary systems of the British type (used in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Papua New Guinea and so on), governments rise and fall according to their support in Parliament. Party systems stabilise this, but notionally you could have extremely frequent changes of government. PNG, where the party structure has historically been weak, is a case where that has been known to take place.
The US is different, because it was designed as an elective monarchy. In that case, the Great Leader can only be replaced once every four years, or whenever they run into a bullet. It's a more stable, if less formally "democratic" system. But it still leads to changes of leadership that occur at speeds more reminiscent of the Vargr than the Vilani.
central government != culture, advancement, or capability.
wolfpacks don't build things. it's a long ways from "you weak, my club bigger" to the seat of a starship. imagine a research department being run on the basis of who is more physically dominant. could any human or vargr trust the conclusions reached by such a department?
wolfpacks don't build things. it's a long ways from "you weak, my club bigger" to the seat of a starship. imagine a research department being run on the basis of who is more physically dominant. could any human or vargr trust the conclusions reached by such a department?
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
But, what if it were run by who put together the best presentations of projects, etc.? I don't think the Vargr are always about who has the bigger club in the literal sense - the metaphorical will do.
Theo D Lite
SOC-11
Generally, I think it would not be sustainable, however isolated occasions, and this is probably one of those it may well occur and work.
Let's face it there are parallels in much sci-fi. The Klingons have already been mentioned and there is also the ST:TOS episode where Kirk and a couple of others inadvertantly cross to a negative image of their universe where Kirks command of the Enterprise is under threat from most of the senior officers.
IIRC in this case he gives the alternative Spock the key to taking and maintaining control as the Vulcans logic recognises that the culture is fatally flawed.
One other good example is E E 'Doc' Smiths Boskone from the Lensman series. Here is an entire culture built on 'might is right' and 'the end justifies the means'. Advancement is by showing yourslf in a better light than those around and immediately above you. The main qualifications for holding a post are just that holding it against attacks from underlings whilst fulfilling the duties of the post to the satisfaction of your superiors.
In most cases the challenges are only going to come from one or two strata below but will take many forms. In the lower orders or 'enforcement' branches physical violence is probably justified, after all how else does a thug prove his toughness, but in higher orders the out performing of superiors can take many forms. Indeed Kinnison advances through the Boskonian military by tactically out performing his Major in the war games trials having disobeyed his orders but performed a tactical success. Admitedly this conforntation ended with Kinnison killing the Major in a dual but the provcation for the dual stemmed from the war games.
I believe that such a society can lead to stable government. Just because people in various offices change does not mean that the overall direction, goal or philosophy of the society should be different. I'm not sure that I want to live in such a society, but that, as they say, is a differnet issue.
Editted for spelling errors 18:44 BST 04/08/05
^ Is there canon to support formalized dueling among the Vargr? It would cut down on the chaotic transfer of power a bit. Maybe the addition of a Vargr Tokugawa to unite the clans under some semblance of order would be a welcome edition.
Here's a thought: What about a Vargr version of Surak, who splits the Vargr between those who chose order and those who prefer the old ways?
Here's a thought: What about a Vargr version of Surak, who splits the Vargr between those who chose order and those who prefer the old ways?
well that's all competition within various frameworks of various rules, refereed by superiors and owners and, frequently, subordinates. humans do this all the time. what we don't see, and what doesn't seem possible as a way of life above that of stoneage, is a single person deciding a superior is weak, physically removing that superior, and then announcing to everyone above and below him that he now has that superior's position.
(reading ran targas's post) excellent suggestions.
(reading ran targas's post) excellent suggestions.
jonathonbarton
SOC-12
Of course it wouldn't, you don't have the Charisma to take the job from THE MANAGER...yet...
But, in a Vargr-style Human-World, you might beat up the Mailroom Manager and get away with it...
Fly,
I just never liked the idea of "The Boy and His Dog" version of the Vargr
The "traditional" Vargr IMTU often eat their defeated enemies in elaborate victory celebrations and to them, humans are considered a delicacy (raw, never cooked). I guess they are a lot like the Kzin or Vorok (FS) are portrayed, only meaner
Of course, the civilized Vargr, who have adjusted to living around humans, are very gentle beings devoted to peace and understanding; just don't get drunk and pass out near a Vargr resturant!
I just never liked the idea of "The Boy and His Dog" version of the Vargr
The "traditional" Vargr IMTU often eat their defeated enemies in elaborate victory celebrations and to them, humans are considered a delicacy (raw, never cooked). I guess they are a lot like the Kzin or Vorok (FS) are portrayed, only meaner
Of course, the civilized Vargr, who have adjusted to living around humans, are very gentle beings devoted to peace and understanding; just don't get drunk and pass out near a Vargr resturant!
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
So, Ran, your Vargr are descended from dogs in East Asian societies?! Yikes!
