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Moving past the 3rd Imperium

The Regency was little more than a nod to the grumblers. A "Here's a place you can keep playing the way you always have, only you can't leave."

No one could come in, they could be carrying virus. And you could leave but why would you. It was a domain of people closing their eyes, fingers in their ears, chanting "lalalalala" as loud as they could to avoid seeing and hearing the death screams of The Imperium and the rest of Charted Space.

But anyway, as Bill said, the point is to push forward. Or I'd say to jump forward. I think a time frame far enough in the future that the Rebellion, Virus, and Empress Wave are nothing but footnotes in history, like the Long Night is to the Classic Era.

I would point out that building any platform to begin a future from has to have the past as a foundation though, so clearing up the issues is required. Any project to create a future will have to discuss the past so it's not all that far off topic or pointless.

But I doubt there will be much consensus on how to smooth the past over and how the future should shape up.
 
The Regency was little more than a nod to the grumblers. A "Here's a place you can keep playing the way you always have, only you can't leave."

I suppose that two sectors or so of space to play in is too claustrophobic for some people. Honestly, people often complain that the OTU is too big, but when it is broken down to something smaller and more manageable it seems that still gets complaints. Again, there is no satisfying anyone.

No one could come in, they could be carrying virus. And you could leave but why would you. It was a domain of people closing their eyes, fingers in their ears, chanting "lalalalala" as loud as they could to avoid seeing and hearing the death screams of The Imperium and the rest of Charted Space.

Doing that allowed them to survive. It is no different to any other society faced with knowledge of impending doom - batten down the hatches, close all the gates, keep the enemy at bay, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.


I would point out that building any platform to begin a future from has to have the past as a foundation though, so clearing up the issues is required. Any project to create a future will have to discuss the past so it's not all that far off topic or pointless.

As long as it does discuss the past and not pretend that it never happens. TNE and Virus and the Collapse is canon, whether anyone likes it or not. Any future therefore ought to have at least AI and "Sandman" type personalities that evolved from Virus, and is likely to be much more "transhumanist" and "modern" than Traveller has been in the past.
 
The Regency was little more than a nod to the grumblers.

Harsh, possibly true. But perhaps some of those "grumblers" were part of GDW too? So that would mean they're not grumblers, but game designers. So they made a choice to preserve the most detailed parts of Traveller. That's not a nod; that's a display of sanity. And we can use that.

No one could come in, they could be carrying virus. And you could leave but why would you. It was a domain of people closing their eyes, fingers in their ears, chanting "lalalalala" as loud as they could to avoid seeing and hearing the death screams of The Imperium and the rest of Charted Space.

That's the reality of interdiction and quarantine, on a massive scale. It seems reasonable to make the attempt, and apparently it worked (mostly?), so that's what we have. We can use that.

But anyway, as Bill said, the point is to push forward. Or I'd say to jump forward. I think a time frame far enough in the future that the Rebellion, Virus, and Empress Wave are nothing but footnotes in history, like the Long Night is to the Classic Era.

I would point out that building any platform to begin a future from has to have the past as a foundation though, so clearing up the issues is required. Any project to create a future will have to discuss the past so it's not all that far off topic or pointless.

Right, we can't sweep Virus under the rug. We can take what we know of Virus, plot its development, and extrapolate all of the possible outcomes. We can use that.


Example

What starts out as Regency in 1200 fractures into sub-domains by 1250, then re-organizes into a few polities ranging from sector-sized to subsector-sized.

Space Vikings spread themselves into piles of competing pocket empires. Surviving entities organize into robber baron empires and Hanseatic leagues.

Does Terra and Vland survive?

What about the Black Curtain? Is it Dante's Inferno in there? Is it a transhumanist nightmare abomination? Note how Virus evolves from its point of origin, then imagine what may happen to those worlds...
 
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I suppose that two sectors or so of space to play in is too claustrophobic for some people. Honestly, people often complain that the OTU is too big, but when it is broken down to something smaller and more manageable it seems that still gets complaints. Again, there is no satisfying anyone.

Not what I meant by the observation. Scale isn't the issue. How can I explain it? It was artificial. It was Deus Ex Machina on a grand scale.

Doing that allowed them to survive. It is no different to any other society faced with knowledge of impending doom - batten down the hatches, close all the gates, keep the enemy at bay, and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.

That's the reality of interdiction and quarantine, on a massive scale. It seems reasonable to make the attempt, and apparently it worked (mostly?), so that's what we have.

But it's unrealistic in a space setting with jump drives. Even postulating a truly flat 2D universe it's a far too porous border to hold. It's simply too easy to jump the blockade to make it believable.

Harsh, possibly true. But perhaps some of those "grumblers" were part of GDW too? So that would mean they're not grumblers, but game designers. So they made a choice to preserve the most detailed parts of Traveller. That's not a nod; that's a display of sanity.

Perhaps. But it always felt last minute slap-dash appeasement to me. And not that deeply though out. Just a preserve if you will to allow players to keep playing the more character oriented game in an area not subject to sudden death.
 
[The Recency felt like...] Just a preserve if you will to allow players to keep playing the more character oriented game in an area not subject to sudden death.

Sounds more reasonable than "a nod to grumblers". If we look at the management change at GDW at the time we'll see how priorities shifted.
 
If you're going to advance the setting that much, you could do it in two different ways:

1) start with the current state of the setting, and try to project it forward
2) start with what you want in a new setting, and work your way backward to the current setting

Personally, if I'm trying to create a setting for people to play in, I would go with (2). You might stretch credulity to create what you want, but you'll probably have a more enjoyable setting in the end.

Ex: I would want a setting where empires are oriented towards exploration and expansion, but where there are still nearby places that have "fallen off the map". Also, smaller ships should have more of a role, compared to the large fleets and megacorp traders of the past.

Solution: Jump Space is a temporary creation, and exists according to fluctuations in the Galactic Core. The Empress Wave is associated with the current phase being past its peak; in another few thousand years, Jump travel for Charted Space may become impossible. These fluctuations have also kept the expansion of cultures into the galaxy at bay; a society must develop the capability at the same time that Jump is possible. Already, in the few hundred years since the Empress Wave, deep space jumps have become nearly impossible, and navigation without regular in-system recalibrations has become more difficult. Any system off the main trade routes runs the risk of becoming a difficult-to-access backwater, particularly if it is more than J-2 away.

The "Future Imperium" is coming to adapt to this change, and realizes that the Zhos (who are already losing access to part of their Core Route) have been playing a very long game, instilling their culture on worlds throughout the galaxy, and instilling enough stabilitiy that Zho society will survive worlds becoming isolated. Some Future Imperials are pushing exploration towards the Rim, to buy more time; others think that advanced technologies may find some way around this.

With the long years of disruption after Virus, most worlds have become more self-sufficient, and very distrusting of supporting large fleets; as a result, shipyards now focus on smaller ships, megacorporations have less influence in overall trade, and the "Future Imperium" gets by with fewer and smaller ships, leaving locals and traders sometimes vulnerable.

Now, this is spinning a lot of cloth, but it's probably no more of a stretch than Virus, and gives you a setting for both grand exploration and close-to-home, "open new markets" exploitation, and gives you more of a "small ship Imperium".
 
Reading the exchanges, I get the sense that a lot of the participants' gaming sessions (at least seem to) affect the interstellar politics in deep and profound ways. By that I don't just mean butterfly effect stuff, but real significant actions that influence judgments of NPCs who hold real 3I power.

Such and such group helps in a battle or some action, which is reconized by the local nobility, and suddenly they're noticed not just by the locals, but power brokers, etc. etc. etc. If your adventures have this kind of flavor, then I can see why you'd be upset with a flavor change in the fiction.

I'm going to do my scratched vinyl record imitation here, but, again, Traveller, as initially conceived and published, was just a set of rules defining an ambiguous generic setting. Want Space 1999? You can create a wandering moonbase with all the space Eagles your hearts' desire, and set your characters on it ... nevermind that approaching alien derelict, because that's part of the adventure. Want a domed city where people are executed at age 30? You can do that too. How about a civilization of ball headed folks whose names are prefixes and numbers, and they live in a drug controlled, sterile environment? You can do that too.

The story, to my mind, isn't really so much what established existence is doing to the characters, so much as how the characters navigate their niche. I guess some character draw more attention than others, because why else would you be concerned?

Our group did the adventures without calling attention to ourselves by the local authorities, and much less any kind of nobility. More later... must sleep now.
 
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Nailed IMHO

I'm going to do my scratched vinyl record imitation here, but, again, Traveller, as initially conceived and published, was just a set of rules defining an ambiguous generic setting. Want Space 1999? You can create a wandering moonbase with all the space Eagles your hearts' desire, and set your characters on it ... nevermind that approaching alien derelict, because that's part of the adventure. Want a domed city where people are executed at age 30? You can do that to. How about a civilization of ball headed folks whose names are prefixes and numbers, and they live in a drug controlled, sterile environment? You can do that to.

EXACTLY! :smirk:
 
Example

What starts out as Regency in 1200 fractures into sub-domains by 1250, then re-organizes into a few polities ranging from sector-sized to subsector-sized.

Space Vikings spread themselves into piles of competing pocket empires. Surviving entities organize into robber baron empires and Hanseatic leagues.

Does Terra and Vland survive?

What about the Black Curtain? Is it Dante's Inferno in there? Is it a transhumanist nightmare abomination? Note how Virus evolves from its point of origin, then imagine what may happen to those worlds...

All of this is explained in the 1248 products that Avenger published.
 
Perhaps. But it always felt last minute slap-dash appeasement to me. And not that deeply though out. Just a preserve if you will to allow players to keep playing the more character oriented game in an area not subject to sudden death.

Does it really matter why it was created? It offers a chance to continue in a CT-like setting, yet still you find cause to complain about it?
 
But you are forgetting the Regency, are you not? That was a setting that was much closer to what came before than the RC region. The argument that all one could do in TNE was fight for survival or fend off the "killer robots" is simply not correct.

Yes, however, the Regency was not a preserve for Classic Culture (unlike what was promised by GDW), and Dave N. promptly made it into a transitional republican constitutional monarchy. This drastically alters the setting.

The Regency is in implosion mode in the 1200's, due to internal (irate nobles, reduced influence) and external (Virus, Aslan Ihati, Zhodani Collapse and the Empress Wave, Vargr Incursions). So moving beyond, expect the Deneb Republic, a weak coalition, with several pocket empires
 
All of this is explained in the 1248 products that Avenger published.

and that's why I posted:

Bill, that sounds like the start of a plan!

OK: The OTU circa 1500 (250 year into the future), 1248 as the base, in the Spinward Marches, T5 is the rule set ...

What's Occurring?

Martin has done the work in smothing the edges of Virus, his team at Avanger sorted the Spiward States, so my thought was to push on to 1500 in the Marches.

Regards,

Ewan
 
I have to admit, I still like discussing thing "Traveller", though to be honest I doubt I'll ever get into another gaming session. Still, it is a hobby, and I enjoy kibitzing about it. To this end I'm still very interested in what people have to say about it, and the game's direction.

So it is that I wonder what kind of gaming experiences people are having or desiring to suggest more drastic changes to the various settings. There seems to be a real desire to allow the players to have influence in the direction of whatever it is that's going to replace the 3rd Imperium. I don't see that as a bad thing. But I might suggest to those kinds of gaming groups that what they're looking for is a custom made and defined setting. Someplace where ... gosh, I dunno ... the Droyne have achieved 3I-like status, and are running the show, and there's a set history of events of what they're doing to re-establish their forefather's sprawling empire.

How does this effect the former (ruined) nations? What's happening with the Aslan? Earth? The Two-Thousand worlds? ... minor races? Vegans? Newts? Space dwarves? Is there another power encroaching on what was civilized space?

I don't know. I'm not sure there's a solution to all this, other than to let the Traveller powers that be come up with a post-3I/Virus/T4 setting, and accept whatever it is by trimming it to your group's taste.

One unique Traveller experience I recall from this BBS was someone writing about how they took their group to a fantasy world, where their marines and other gun-types were gunning down hordes of the usual baddies; i.e. trolls, orcs and what not. Things apparently were desperate but reasonably okay until said group ran out of ammunition. To me, that's a whole supplement. Someone could have written that up with a story in mind, and turned it into a CT LBB and PDF. Granted, this is a one-off that has no integral campaign in terms of visiting other worlds, but, to me the message I'm getting is more material for what is, as opposed to pushing the history forward.

Like I say, I don't have too much of an opinion on what comes after Virus/TNE. But I'm wondering if anybody's going to be satisfied with what comes next? Immediately I can think of some real super-tech ideas that would turn Traveller on its head, but it might put a crimp in those of us who liked lugging ACRs with M203s and SAW249 like LMGs into the fray. Conversely it might detract from the much used "marines in space" genre, and inject some real meaty sci-fi back into the science and fiction of Traveller. :)

I guess what I'm asking is this, are you all sure you don't want more adventure material for untapped areas, or are you really desirous to see what happens after the Third Imperium is really-REALLY gone?
 
Yes, however, the Regency was not a preserve for Classic Culture (unlike what was promised by GDW), and Dave N. promptly made it into a transitional republican constitutional monarchy. This drastically alters the setting.

Perhaps it does if the PCs are involved in politics. If they are traders though I do not think that the politics makes that much of a difference.

Then again, I doubt that anything that GDW would have done would have been good enough for those who set out to dislike TNE from the start because it was different.
 
Gents,

Well, Ewan asked the 64 CrImp question so I suppose I'll put my musings out there.

Pleae note, these are musings and little more. Just odd notes I've jotted down over years since TNE appeared, GDW retired, and Traveller turned it's collective back on it's own in-game future.

What would M:1500 look like? A lot like Europe in 1500 CE I'm thinking. However, before I can discuss M:1500's present I need to tackle it's past. As for that past and generally speaking, everything already mentioned through 1248 happened as described or pretty much as described. The particular parts of the past we need to address, however, are Virus and the Empress Wave.


Virus in 1500: What's happened to Virus? Putting it simply, the Singularity happened.

Virus and it's works, good, bad, or incredibly vile, were a type of transhumanism. Couple that transhumanism with a lifeform that can "geneer" itself by re-writing computer code while also evolving at CPU clock speed and the Singularity should come roaring in like a rocket sled on rails. Thanks to this Viral Singularity, Virus has "ascended" or "moved on" on whatever other terms you feel comfortable with. There are a few examples left in a few odd corners, some of the more eccentric Mother, God, and Hobbyist strains which simply weren't interested in passing through the Singularity, but Virus has essentially left our plane of existence.

While Virus is basically gone in M:1500, it's handwork remains behind.


The Empress Wave: Oddly enough, tackling the Wave is much harder than dealing with Virus and that's because we know so little about it.

The Wave was a cosmological event, a "reality quake" if you will. Something or some things triggered it in the core of our galaxy and it propogated outward from there. A large part of the Wave involved a "flutter" or "spasm" in the boundary between the dimension that contains normal space and the dimensions that contain jump space. And, because psioincs and jump space are somehow linked, the Wave also effected minds.

The Wave resembled a tsunami in a way. Just as a tsunami is a ripple in the deep ocean and is only noticed when it approaches land, the Wave cold be only be detected when it effected jump travel and minds. Unlike a tsunami which slows as it approaches land, the Wave sped up it encountered minds and especially actively psionic minds. so, the Wave didn't propogate along a perfect wavefront. Minds tugged it hither and thither, stretching it's front into bulges and pockets. The more sentient the minds and the more psionic the minds it met, the more the Wave was tugged out of shape and the more it sped up.

Sadly, this also meant that the Zhodani Core Route drew the Empress Wave faster towards Charted Space just as a candle's wick draws liquid wax to the flame.

The psionic aspect of the wave ranged far ahead of it, just as a storm can raise huge waves on a distant beachs which are still under blue skies. It was this far ranging psionic upset which began to tear the Consulate apart and which Jon Crocker imprinted into Strephon's mind at Longbow II.

The psionic upsets caused by the Wave were only a small part of it's passage however. It's disruption of the boundary between normal and jump space stopped FTL travel for generations. As the Wave's effects built towards a peak, jump first became increasingly difficult and finally completely impossible.

As the Wave moved across Charted Space, FTL travel was lost for generations, was lost for centuries. That’s why no warnings arrived from the Core Route, no vessel could jump past a wave front that was tens or perhaps hundreds of parsecs thick.

From perhaps 1250 onwards a curtain of silence swept across Charted Space. Traveling faster than light, the Wave sundered the interstellar links binding every polity, every trade group, every fleet, and everyone. Worlds were alone, travellers stranded, fleets and ships trapped in the systems where the Wave found them. This was no loss of trade, no financial collapse, no inward turn. This was an impossibility instead. No matter how much they may have wanted to, no one could use jump ships because jump drive no longer worked.

Sure, a few worlds managed to maintain a few interstellar links by STL ship, lasers, or radio, but the vast majority of Charted Space was cut off from the rest. Each of those worlds was forced to develop in isolation, to progress, regress, succeed, fail, survive, or die on its own. Thousands of worlds across Charted Space became individual “sociological terrariums” as the Wave prevented jump for year after year decade after decade and on into the centuries.

Then, perhaps a century or so before the year the Third Imperium would mark as 1500, the Wave’s effects began to diminish. The wall cutting off all these worlds from each other first faded, then disappeared, and their inhabitants began to explore what the galaxy the Wave and Virus had left behind.


That’s it really. That's my first suggestion for M:1500. I could go on for thousands of more words describing the growing polities, the trade networks, the wars, the explorations, the re-contact, the re-learning of all the things lost while the Wave raged. There’s no need to do that however because you’ve all got enough imagination to fill in the huge blank canvas I set in front of you.

Try this thought experiment. Take out any sector map you wish and place a penny on every “shirtsleeve” system. That is every system in which a population could exist for years without any outside contact. Those worlds are the ones who will begin looking outward once the Wave recedes. More importantly, those worlds will contain any society, tech level, and government you care, or dare, to dream about.


Regards,
Bill
 
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< snip much awesomeness>

Damn, Bill. Very nice. Now that's a version of the OTU I could get excited about.

BTW, the "left our plane of existence" immediately made me think of that other 60s-70s era sci-fi trope - "They became beings of pure energy!"
 
Damn, Bill. Very nice. Now that's a version of the OTU I could get excited about.


John,

Thanks.

It's little more than a 3x5 card compared to the OTU, but it may get us thinking again and that may give the OTU a future again.

BTW, the "left our plane of existence" immediately made me think of that other 60s-70s era sci-fi trope - "They became beings of pure energy!"

You caught me. :) The choice of phrase was deliberate. All the transhumanism talk about a "singularity" is just a more current version of that old "evolved into superior beings" trope.

When you look at Virus from a certain angle it's definitely "transhuman". After all, what is the real difference between a Virus "infected" robot and a ghost personality uploaded into a cybershell? So why not use the Singularity trope from transhumanism to "clean up" the Virus problem in the OTU?


Regards,
Bill
 
speaking as someone who was inside FASA and experienced the way the Battletech universe moved forward, there is a lot more work than one might think.

The FASA product timeline "officially" ran on a two year schedule. The quotes are because nothing got put on the schedule until the rough decisions were made. These decisions and ideas were gathered, made, prepared, etc..., just before the periodic "writer's summits".
There fiction writers(Blaine, Mike, Loren, etc...) would gether with the product writers, and Bryan(later Randall) and they would develop the fiction that the game universe would ride on.
It was there that the universe would be advanced and chunks would be cut out of the rough fiction and parced out as writing assignments. Intended products would be married to the timeline as this proceeded and the contracts and such would be drawn and signed.

Once that was done the writers and project managers/game designers both had their deadlines and assignments. Everything from the raw product(and playtesting) to manufacturing and shipping details has to be coordinated in a hard core frame of the established schedule.
And the result of all that work is a fictional universe moving forward in a controlled, cohesive and coordinated method that really(at leaset under FASA) fell over once*. So there is a hell of a lot of work, combined with a steady stream of writing and production that is tied to advancing a game universe.

What I have seen, IMO, with Traveller is the fact that you can do anything in the 40,000 worlds of the OTU. You have the means and need only add what your imagination wants to add. Newer products can provide outlines of how game mechanics and technology works, provide new ideas and thought directions. Yes, they can advance it for you(and by advance, I do NOT mean the drivel from SJGames TNS) but it is open for you to paint your own space of canvass.
In comparison, the Battletech universe was a means to market and enhance a miniatures based war-game and nothing more. Just like Traveller, there was no battletech universe, or even FASA proprietary artwork. The first ten Battlemech miniatures from that were created as part of a deal FASA cut with Ral Partha's(now Iron Wind Metal) then owner. I can not tell you how he laughed when I discussed the lengths I went to to get four of each of those first ten(Yes, I may have worked on Battletech but I came to it late, as Sam Lewis was leaving). He almost fell over laughing at my collecting as he described how they came up with the final two figure designs. That the Battletech universe took on a life of its own was testiment to the work, effort and crafting that went into it.

So yes, you could be right that the product should have an advancing universe to push it, or others can be right that they do not need to be pushed and like their freedom to create.

Just do not let anyone tell you "how to do it" when you are having fun doing it your way :D

Marc

* the debaucle that led to puling one product from the pipeline while pushing out the later disavowed Tactical Handbook
 
I have to agree with John, that sounds like a great start there Bill. Similar to my own mutterings, a little difference based on some Wave ideas (being Virus killer re the Psionic connection, so Virus was faced with either evolve/ascend or die, and the evolved/ascended were carried along on the wave front out of Charted Space).

Naturally I like it mostly for the clean slate start, frontier exploration opportunity.

About the only point of difference, and I'm not actually sure it's what you meant, is I don't think it would be only the shirtsleeve worlds that would survive (and possibly thrive) through it. With sufficient tech even inhospitable worlds could be self sufficient with the resources of a solar system (or even two or more via sublight travel) to work with. Nor would every shirtsleeve world be guaranteed survival or advancement. Some might be so dependent on imports that they'd regress or even collapse leaving a world of who knows what kind of society.

There are bound to be detractors to the idea. Too "Long Night unto dawn" maybe but that's one era I've long thought would be quite interesting as an OTU setting.
 
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It's little more than a 3x5 card compared to the OTU, but it may get us thinking again and that may give the OTU a future again.

Oh, to be sure - but at a stroke, it allows one to sweep away many of the more nonsensical aspects of the OTU, from the airless, waterless rockballs with populations in the millions or billions to the random placement of bases and X-boat routes, let alone belief snappers like Virus. Almost a tabula rasa.

A lot like Europe in 1500 CE I'm thinking.

Hm, given only a century of recovery from such a huge event - maybe more like 1000 CE, or even earlier. I would think that it would take a lot longer to fire up the jump drives again. I think you'd see a lot of small interstellar states.

You would, on the other hand, see some very fully-developed star systems, with real development across the system and not a population planted on it's collective butt on the mainworld.

In any case, vastly better potential to craft a rational setting, instead of one reliant on sectors generated by random sysgen 30+ years ago.
 
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