Moving past the 3rd Imperium

[SuperGamera]

Depending on how techo-conservative societies have become as a result of Virus, you may end up with something looking a lot like "new" BSG. The capacity for higher technology is there, but the perceived threat of a Virus-like attack keeps pervasive computing in check.

A pre-Consolidation 1e Vilani might find a 1500 Imperium somewhat familiar.

 

[Whipsnade]

But once you're not bogged down in suspension of disbelief issues, Virus has a LOT of potential.

Hans,

Sure, Virus has boatloads of potential and I've never suggested it doesn't.

The question now becomes how much suspension of disbelief you want your game to carry.

Traveller has quite a load already, jump drive, gravitics, light-second range lasers, waste heat, the list is rather extensive and I haven't even touched upon the various sociological snappers. Some people are hesitant to add to Traveller's load, especially concerning something people think they already understand well like cybernetics. So why not give them a Virus that adds as little to that load as possible?

Anyway, and as usual, you and I have derailed the topic at hand.

We're notorious for that, aren't we?


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Once again, the OTU only has an official future if some day an official product is published.

So the OTU did not have an official future until MT was published? You really aren't making any sense.

There's been no official future since GDW retired and TNE ended.

But by your definition, the OTU is never going to have an official future. The moment a setting is published that is set later in time, it becomes the new "endpoint" and you're still not going to have a future. Either that, or TNE[*] has every bit as much of a future as the Classic Era and the Rebellion had.

[*] Or T:1248 if that's official.​

[Snip irrelevant insult]

However, even if the OTU's future gets "Mongoosed", at least the OTU will have an official published future again.

And then what?

The OTU had a future for longer than it hasn't. As I explained to Fly, it's matter of differing infinities. While the future-less OTU is infinite, an OTU with a future is more infinite.

I don't see how the OTU has ever had any more or any less of a future than it has right this minute.


Hans

 

[jappel]

Sort of like chopping off the head to cure a headache. It really wouldn't need anything that drastic to fix those nonsensical bits while keeping the huge amounts of material that have accumulated over the years that does work. You just need a "Project Manager" who's willing to retcon the inconsistencies while refraining from invalidating everything else.

We may have to agree to disagree on the extent to which the 3I setting is broken. I feel it's flaws are fundamental, founded in such things as the random sysgen of the OTU and the fact that the initial designers wee building what they thought was an interesting game milieux, rather than a working model, and despite the best efforts of many talented and well-intentioned people (yourself included!), these systemic flaws can't be corrected without letting some of the background pass.

IMHO, Traveller as a game will survive best when more people play the game, rather than play with the setting. I think an OTU with an open-ended future will help that.

 

[Whipsnade]

IMHO, Traveller as a game will survive best when more people play the game, rather than play with the setting. I think an OTU with an open-ended future will help that.

John,

Very neatly put and far easier to understand than my "more infinite infinity" nonsense!


Regards,
Bill

 

[scrabble]

One thing I believe a future OTU should definitely not have is a large Imperium. The Imperium is dead, and it is time that the inhabitants of the OTU learned from their mistakes.

In 1248, the polities are much smaller (sector-sized). By 1500 perhaps the largest would span two or three sectors, possibly a domain at most. But the fact remains that smaller polities are much more manageable and less bureaucratic, and allow for more variety across the setting.

I think there would be a real frontier for exploration too, through the former Zhodani Consulate. Around the Spinward Marches there would be a more enlightened attitude towards psionics due to the integration of the Zhodani and Imperial socities, and the desire to leave behind the descendants of the Great Dominate and start anew elsewhere would be great. So I think there would be a considerable push to discover and explore new worlds to coreward/spinward through the now open frontier.

 

[Whipsnade]

One thing I believe a future OTU should definitely not have is a large Imperium. The Imperium is dead, and it is time that the inhabitants of the OTU learned from their mistakes.

scrabble/dhr,

Your reading comprehension hasn't improved at all, has it?

Is there any mention of the Imperium or an imperium in Post #55?

In 1248, the polities are much smaller (sector-sized).

Poor reading comprehension again...

In 1500 the polities of 1248 have been dead for over two hundred and fifty years thanks to the effects of a very different Empress Wave.

By 1500 perhaps the largest would span two or three sectors...

And your lack of reading comprehension strikes again...

In 1500, worlds have been able to use jump drive for two or three generations at most. The largest polities will be under subsector in size and populations away from "shirtsleeve" worlds and those relatively few inhospitable systems which maintained enough technology to survive will be minimal. There will be a few populated worlds in each subsector and a lot of empty space around them.

I think there would be a real frontier...

As John Appel and I already discussed, there will be both interior and exterior frontiers ripe for exploration and recontact.

Let's lay down some ground rules here, drh. I think, given our history together, that some rules will be needed.

If you have anything of value to contribute to this discussion I'll be more than happy to read it. However, if you simply post "ditto" statements, engage in your usual trolling, or make remarks like these that exhibit no comprehension of what as already been discussed, I'm going to use the report function early and often.

This thread is too important for the usual shenanigans. Understood?


Regards,
Bill

 

[scrabble]

I do not believe that your version of events is or should be the only one to be discussed here. If you want to do that, I would suggest that you start your own thread for it so that you can do so undistracted by comments and criticism. I do not like what you do with Virus, and I do not much care for your ideas about the Empress Wave either, so what I am suggesting has nothing to do with your ideas other than using 1500 as a convenient reference point. So I will thank you to leave your personal commentary on my reading abilities out of this.

And let us be realistic, this thread is not "important" at all. It is a discussion on an internet board that will come and go, nobody is going to actually publish anything here.

 

[spinwardpirate]

IMHO, Traveller as a game will survive best when more people play the game, rather than play with the setting. I think an OTU with an open-ended future will help that.

Hey, I like that.
My two credits...
It seems to me there are two trends in Traveller. One is a trend toward travelling/exploration (visiting strange new worlds). Another is a trend toward travelling/"site-seeing" (visiting strange settled worlds). As a site-seer, I really enjoy the OTU because it offers so many sites to see. As an explorer, I find the OTU less than exciting because it seems all the blank spaces have been filled in. However, when I look at that map, I realize there is plenty of space around the edges that hasn't been explored. So when I need to move past the 3rd Imperium, it's "go rimward, young man, go rimward."

 

[scrabble]

Also Whipsnade, you seem to be misunderstanding (or are deliberately ignoring) what is known about the Empress Wave, as presented in the 1248 books. It is not something that significantly affects jump travel (at least not beyond its main crest, which is described in 1248 "Out of the Darkness" as usually being 10-20 light-hours deep). It also travels at approximately lightspeed (not faster than light), since it is an electromagnetic phenomenon with a psionic component. For it to do the things that you are suggesting, it would have to be a totally different phenomenon.

The psionic component is a message from a group of humans left behind by Grandfather near the core. The Star Vikings departed to investigate them in the 1248 era, but my suspicion is that they are probably long dead now, killed by whatever astronomical phenomenon created the EM component of the wave (galactic black hole hiccup, or chain of supernovas around the core). Perhaps they managed to flee to a distance where the EM effects were not deadly to them, so that they are now between Known Space and the Core.

250 years after 1248, the Empress Wave will still be passing through Known Space but will be approximately 75 parsecs further to rimward (it should be in or around the Massila/Delphi/Zarushagar line, if my calculations are correct). Some worlds may have been badly affected by radiation due to its passage, but most should be able to survive relatively unscathed. The coreward parts of Known Space may be suffering from some minor effects from of the trailing EM wavefronts/troughs, but they should be manageable. Details can be found on page 121 of "Out of the Darkness".

I should also point out that Out of the Darkness contains a large section on the "Forward Timeline", starting at page 136, that presents some suggestions (not set in stone) for the direction in which the polities in 1248 could be going in the future. I believe this is a much more useful place to start extrapolating from in an exercise such as this.

 

[Whipsnade]

Also Whipsnade, you seem to be misunderstanding (or are deliberately ignoring) what is known about the Empress Wave

drh,

If you'd read and comprehended Post #55 you'd already understand I am deliberately positing a different Empress Wave for meta-game purposes.

The style and type of Empress Wave I suggested was specifically crafted to create the M:1500 setting I described.

I should also point out that Out of the Darkness contains a large section on the "Forward Timeline", starting at page 136, that presents some suggestions (not set in stone) for the direction in which the polities in 1248 could be going in the future. I believe this is a much more useful place to start extrapolating from in an exercise such as this.

Please suggest away then. I found the section somewhat unsatisfying, but others will and should have other opinions. If the "Forward Timeline" is useful place to begin, show us what can be crafted from it.


Bill

 

[robject]

One thing I believe a future OTU should definitely not have is a large Imperium. [...]

In 1248, the polities are much smaller (sector-sized). By 1500 perhaps the largest would span two or three sectors, possibly a domain at most. But the fact remains that smaller polities are much more manageable and less bureaucratic, and allow for more variety across the setting.

I prefer this sort of view, but I know others who prefer a massive confederation.

I think a number of smaller polities may be more in the spirit of Proto-Traveller, so perhaps that's why I find it interesting. That, and the promise of neutral zones/wilderness territory through which trade lanes may dare cross.

I think I'd prefer to see "mega"-pocket empires, safely nestled within a dozen subsectors, cohabiting with true, smaller pocket empires. At the same time, I still imagine a Proto-Imperium which spans an eternal rift. If I have to choose one over the other, I'd pick the former.

If I could have both, then I'd "virtually" extend the Rifts a bit and stick Yet Another Ziru Sirka in the gap, composed of three macro-pocket empires (one for each Reorganized Bureau), intersecting at Shaddukan.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Ahem.

A little more politeness, please, everyone.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Also Whipsnade, you seem to be misunderstanding (or are deliberately ignoring) what is known about the Empress Wave, as presented in the 1248 books. It is not something that significantly affects jump travel (at least not beyond its main crest, which is described in 1248 "Out of the Darkness" as usually being 10-20 light-hours deep). It also travels at approximately lightspeed (not faster than light), since it is an electromagnetic phenomenon with a psionic component. For it to do the things that you are suggesting, it would have to be a totally different phenomenon.

Martin took what was known about the Empress Wave and exstrapolated some stuff and then wrote what is in 1248. It doesn't mean that what is there is the be all and end all. As Avenger wasn't allowed to expand on the setting we can take what is there, exstrapolate and expand, much in the same way Martin did, and come up with something additional. As you say it was the crest that was 10-20 light hours deep, the trough might be light years deep, and have the effect that Bill has come up with.

I should also point out that Out of the Darkness contains a large section on the "Forward Timeline", starting at page 136, that presents some suggestions (not set in stone) for the direction in which the polities in 1248 could be going in the future. I believe this is a much more useful place to start extrapolating from in an exercise such as this.

Sounds interesting. Please post your thoughts.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[mike wightman]

Is the 1248 setting still canon?

If it is then T1500 has to build on that.

or T2000

Daftness aside the OTU has been rebooted with MgT - their adventures and alien modules are retconning the OTU.

The GDW OTU (whatever that was - considering all the paradigm changes) is long dead.

Will there be a rebellion in the MgOTU? Will Virus or the empress wave rear their ugly heads?

Will MWM produce OTU books for T5 that move the setting forward?

Will someone write a T1500 setting book for MgT or T5 to move the OTU forward?

 

[scrabble]

I see no reason to believe that 1248 is not canon. It is an officially published product, published by a licensee, and it covers a period that nobody else has covered so it is not "alternate".

As far as I am concerned any claims of it not being canon are merely wishful thinking on the part of people who do not like what Mr Dougherty did with the setting.

 

[scrabble]

Martin took what was known about the Empress Wave and exstrapolated some stuff and then wrote what is in 1248. It doesn't mean that what is there is the be all and end all. As Avenger wasn't allowed to expand on the setting we can take what is there, exstrapolate and expand, much in the same way Martin did, and come up with something additional.

In my opinion we should be extrapolating from what he wrote (which did actually expand on the setting and explain much of what was left hanging in TNE quite considerably), not ignoring it. The material about the Empress Wave in 1248 is quite clear on its effects, and it is clear that it does not cripple all jump travel for centuries, and it does not travel faster than light.

As you say it was the crest that was 10-20 light hours deep, the trough might be light years deep, and have the effect that Bill has come up with.

The troughs are described in 1248 too. They do not have the effect that Whipsnade suggests.

 

[scrabble]

If you'd read and comprehended Post #55 you'd already understand I am deliberately positing a different Empress Wave for meta-game purposes.

The style and type of Empress Wave I suggested was specifically crafted to create the M:1500 setting I described.

Then you are proposing an alternate future for the OTU that deliberately contradicts canon, and as such it is of no interest to me. My interest is in an extrapolation from the material presented in 1248, not an alternative view that ignores it.

Though to be honest, I do not think that enough people have explored the future already presented in 1248 to make it worth considering what happens after that era.

 

[robject]

Is the 1248 setting still canon?

If it is then T1500 has to build on that.

or T2000

Until we hear otherwise, I think we have to assume that 1248 is canon.

 

[kafka47]

Again the canonistas destroy a perfectly good discussion by their obsessions. Could we not see that parts of Marc's plan is to release the Traveller body of knowledge to the public. Whether or not these constitute canon will be for Marc and Mongoose to decide.

Such was the case with Gamelords and FASA and the possible deal with DGP. All these would constitute not canon but part of the larger canvas. Personally, I would welcome 1248 as canon but I would also like to see a Wounded Colossus make its way to print. So let us have a thousand flowers bloom rather than worry about canon...its bound to be contradictory anyhow.