Moving past the 3rd Imperium

[scrabble]

Again the canonistas destroy a perfectly good discussion by their obsessions. Could we not see that parts of Marc's plan is to release the Traveller body of knowledge to the public. Whether or not these constitute canon will be for Marc and Mongoose to decide.

It is only an issue because people are making it an issue here. There is no reason to doubt that 1248 is canonical, but people keep asking whether it is or not (seemingly in the hope that it is not). Personally I think that hoping that it is not is rather insulting to the authors of the 1248 material.

And I do not really see any reason to believe that Mr Miller plans to "release the Traveller body of knowledge to the public" - in fact all the evidence points to the contrary, given that nobody is allowed to publish or refer to OTU material anymore in commercial work, beyond the Foreven sector.

If Whipsnade wishes to continue with his Alternate Future then there is nothing stopping him. I would merely prefer to see a Future that is actually built on the material that has already been presented in 1248. But either way, this is just a discussion and it is not as if any of this would ever see print or be officially published.

 

[scrabble]

Until we hear otherwise, I think we have to assume that 1248 is canon.

You make this sound as if it is a bad thing.

 

[Tellon]

I personally haven't even looked at 1248, although I probably should..I have heard mostly good about it with a few folks crinkling thier noses

I think it is good that the RCES was made out to be patronizing -- it gives some realisimg to a govt instead of being a rose-colored utopis BS pocket empire where everybody is lovey-dovey .. lol

so there are elements for pocket empires, civil-war, exploration and so on ...

But -- being a "hard-sci" person -- I am basically going off an ATU, instead of an OTU .. so which is why I like the MT/HT, TNE rule-sets with all the player-done errate & tweaks --

so I use the rulesets to go off on my own and see where creativity take me ..

 

[captainjack]

Then you are proposing an alternate future for the OTU that deliberately contradicts canon, and as such it is of no interest to me. My interest is in an extrapolation from the material presented in 1248, not an alternative view that ignores it.

Though to be honest, I do not think that enough people have explored the future already presented in 1248 to make it worth considering what happens after that era.

I'd be interested to hear how you square the above position with your "old guard should move or die off before change is possible" statements in this same thread ? Clearly you are arguing against changing how things were done before, only now it is TNE part of the OTU which is set in stone.
Is one only a change aversive old guard if one hews to the older static canon, and not the somewhat less old static canon ?

It seems that your position is not that traveller needs to change, but rather that it needs to revert to TNE, or at least the tropes which defined TNE; which is fine, but hardly real change given how firmly embedded it is in the OTU (which you have no time for).

Not to say that this isn't a valid position; lots of people like or at least can live with TNE; but it is hardly something new, nor is holding that position it a sign of being open to change or new ideas. It is rather more like an one guard reactionary arguing that another old guard reactionary is wrong and against change because of adherance to a slightly earlier version of the static dogma/canon/party line.

If you want traveller to move beyond the OTU, you'll need to realize that simply resetting to the third reboot of the OTU isn;t the way to get it. You may also want to consider that in your criticisms and dismissal of the old guard that you are one also; and can easily be lumped in with "those who are adverse to change".


Why is this relevant ? because what is a discussion of moving beyond the 3I is devolving into rarified arguments about what has been written, rather than what might have been written. Espousing development of a more TNE like set of tropes is fine - but realize that there are a lot of ways to get there, potentially unencumbered with rehashing what was written twenty or so years ago. If 1248/TNE is canon, then it is fair game for mining, revision and change, as is any of the OTU that one feel needs revision. Rarified arguments about ideology such as what the real OTU/3I/Traveller is and what is not okay to change, just divert the process.


Thanks for letting me get that off my chest - and by the way Scrabble, welcome to the ranks of the Old Guard -you can form up with the TNE grognards over by the standard.

 

[jappel]

...given that nobody is allowed to publish or refer to OTU material anymore in commercial work, beyond the Foreven sector.

This is news to me. Could you provide a citation to where this was announced?

 

[Whipsnade]

Again the canonistas destroy a perfectly good discussion by their obsessions.

Kafka,

You owe me a keyboard.

Assuming scrabble/dhr is a "canonista" is like assuming Al Sharpton is the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan.

He has made it abundantly clear in previous threads he was banned for that he loathes the OTU and openly applauds any and all changes Mongoose has or will make to the OTU regardless of merit.

The only reason he's defending the OTU now is because it allows him to troll this discussion.

While he is trolling, scrabble/dhr is also correct. I've changed the description of the Empress Wave found in M:1248. As I wrote in Post #55, I used canon up to and including M:1248 "as described or pretty much as described." I made specific and deliberate changes to as few things as possible in order to fashion a certain feeling for M:1500. Among those things changed were the Empress Wave and those changes were deliberately made, as Robject already noted, to produce a proto-Traveller feel to the period. I felt a return to a First Three LBB-style universe with both internal and external frontiers would be worth the retcons.

Canon and the OTU has been changed before, changed far more greatly and for much larger reasons. Just look at the differences between LBB:2 and LBB:5 for example. A tweak to the Empress Wave description found in a third party sourcebook of limited circulation that itself failed to completely match the previous information presented in TNE is very small potatoes when compared to the Small Ship/Big Ship shift and other previous canonical retcons.

scrabble/dhr, naturally, will argue that these changes are too big and completely wrong, but that's just because he's here to troll and would argue that milk is bad for children if it furthered his agenda.

Personally, I would welcome 1248 as canon but I would also like to see a Wounded Colossus make its way to print.

WoCo is in the public domain. Anyone can take the ideas presented in it and do whatever they wish.


Regards,
Bill

 

[captainjack]

This is news to me. Could you provide a citation to where this was announced?

It's a dramatic overstatement made in the heat of argument, I suspect. The mongoose developers pack at the mongoose site discusses this in less emotive detail in terms of several licenses that one can use to publish materials more or less related to traveller and the traveller official setting. Here is the source of some actual information:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/travdevpack.zip

The rest is my opinion based on a possibly amateurish reading, and probably wrong. For best results, read it yourself.

Note that noncommercial Fair use still exists, and (in my opinion) is still quite generous. The foreven sector license is a fairly unique and also generous to participate in the OTU. Finally, one could also negotiate a project with mongoose, Avenger or theoretically with FFE; possibly one could buy a license, depending on the mongoose license, which I don't have any information about.

What is limited is the right to revise and/or make money off of Marc Millers creative property without his permission, or to deamage said use by his licensed partners (mongoose).

Basically, it's his novel, and the fans don't get to rewrite his manuscript as they see fit; nor to xerox it and sell it. Pretty simple, really. And not nearly as unreasonably overcontrolled as some see it. Again: In My Dogheaded Opinion.

 

[mike wightman]

Is 1248 still in print or available as pdf?

If it is then it is the definitive furthest extent of OTU history.

If not it could go the way of Judges Guild material.

What you can't escape - wounded colossus or otherwise - is that TNE is the OTU.

Moving the OTU forward has to deal with Virus and the empress wave - Bill's 1500 idea does both of those admirably.

As I posted earlier I have some issues with 1248 - the large fleet battles just seem wrong to me. IMTU I have an alternative way to explain what happened.

But as far as I can see 1248 remains the canon that has to be built on to advance the OTU - and again Bill's 1500 does this.

Perhaps someone should actually put forward a T1500 or further setting to Mongoose and see what happens.

 

[scrabble]

It's a dramatic overstatement made in the heat of argument, I suspect.

You would be wrong there.

The FUP allows people to publish OTU material for non-commercial purposes.

The Foreven license allows people to publish OTU material commercially but only if it is set (or remains) within the Foreven sector.

The OGL allows people to publish SF material using Traveller rules, but it cannot be OTU material.

A full commercial license allows people to publish any OTU material (even beyond Foreven). However, such licenses are no longer forthcoming, and only Mongoose and SJG still have them (and QLI, but it is unlikely that they will publish anything further before theirs runs out).


Given all that, perhaps you could point out where my statement of "given that nobody is allowed to publish or refer to OTU material anymore in commercial work, beyond the Foreven sector" is incorrect or "over-stated", particularly give that I was explicitly talking about commercial publications, and explicitly said "beyond Foreven"?

 

[scrabble]

Is 1248 still in print or available as pdf?

It is not, thanks to the vagaries of the licensing. I believe this is a bad thing, as there is much more that I feel could have been done with the setting.

If not it could go the way of Judges Guild material.

Only until or unless Mr Miller decanonizes it. While it is out of print and unavailable for purchase on PDF, that does not mean that it is suddenly ceases to exist or can be ignored.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

In my opinion we should be extrapolating from what he wrote (which did actually expand on the setting and explain much of what was left hanging in TNE quite considerably), not ignoring it. The material about the Empress Wave in 1248 is quite clear on its effects, and it is clear that it does not cripple all jump travel for centuries, and it does not travel faster than light.

As I asked before, I'll ask again. Please post your thoughts on how to move the Imperium forward from 1248 with Martin's explinations.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[captainjack]

You would be wrong there.

The FUP allows people to publish OTU material for non-commercial purposes.

The Foreven license allows people to publish OTU material commercially but only if it is set (or remains) within the Foreven sector.

The OGL allows people to publish SF material using Traveller rules, but it cannot be OTU material.

A full commercial license allows people to publish any OTU material (even beyond Foreven). However, such licenses are no longer forthcoming, and only Mongoose and SJG still have them (and QLI, but it is unlikely that they will publish anything further before theirs runs out).


Given all that, perhaps you could point out where my statement of "given that nobody is allowed to publish or refer to OTU material anymore in commercial work, beyond the Foreven sector" is incorrect or "over-stated", particularly give that I was explicitly talking about commercial publications, and explicitly said "beyond Foreven"?

Look, Scrabble, us arguing about this isn't going to produce any useful info for someone who wants to publish something; nor is my contradicting your opinion with my opinion of any use whatsoever given that there is an actual source that anyone can reference and make up their own mind; including emailing the source, be it Mongoose or FFE.

So, I'll opt to not answer your challenge, except to say that I agree that our interpretations of what the actual rules are differ, and we are both confident that we are correct; and I'm fine with stopping there to avoid trainwrecking the thread.

Frankly, if I decide to do any such writing, I'll reconsult the actual sources, and not a random posters opinion, including my own....

 

[robject]

[...]It seems that your position is [...] that [Traveller] needs to revert to TNE, or at least the tropes which defined TNE

TNE is part of the OTU, and Marc is working with it. That may include 1248; I don't know, but it seems safe for all of us to assume that 1248 is part of the official timeline.

If 1248/TNE is canon, then it is fair game for mining, revision and change, as is any of the OTU that one feel needs revision.

QFT.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

A full commercial license allows people to publish any OTU material (even beyond Foreven). However, such licenses are no longer forthcoming, and only Mongoose and SJG still have them (and QLI, but it is unlikely that they will publish anything further before theirs runs out).

You missed out BITS and FFE.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I would merely prefer to see a Future that is actually built on the material that has already been presented in 1248. But either way, this is just a discussion and it is not as if any of this would ever see print or be officially published.

I think we understand your point of veiw. Would you post your thoughts on moving the OTU forward from 1248?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

TNE is part of the OTU, and Marc is working with it. That may include 1248; I don't know, but it seems safe for all of us to assume that 1248 is part of the official timeline.

It's down as being part of the TNE 2 CD from FFE, which kind of answers the question that it is canon.

And to answer someone elses quetions (I forget who, apploogies). We'll have to wait until Marc released the CD of course, but when he does the material will become available again.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[captainjack]

It's down as being part of the TNE 2 CD from FFE, which kind of answers the question that it is canon.

And to answer someone elses quetions (I forget who, apploogies). We'll have to wait until Marc released the CD of course, but when he does the material will become available again.

Best regards,

Ewan

Cool. Nice to have a touchstone finally. <bertie wooster voice>...Opinion is so.....opinionated.,</bertie wooster>


And for the record, I quite like what he did for 1248 -it seemed to be a good way to mix a return to a smaller TU with fixing some of the worst problems with TNE.

'course, I still run a mostly OTU golden age scouts campaign........with every other one before that being an ATU/genre ripoff type (star trek, dune, homebrew,star wars, etc. etc. )...

 

[Blue Ghost]

Grr, I was going to post this this morning from work while on break, but got stymied.

On Virus's decimation; I get a tiny sense of Star Trek, The Next Generation in operation here. Someone slap me silly if I'm wrong, but, a kind of federation of worlds (fed with a lower case "f" mind you), reaching out and expanding into seeable and once known space, but making contact with old worlds and new folks alike.

Back to the topic at hand; I have no problem with a post TNE future for Traveller, whatever it is. I do think that some actual rules may have to change. I think notably starship tech is going to have to make some leaps and bounds in all areas, regardless of the milieu.

Some suggested examples;

AI starships with real personalities will be the norm, not the exception. Maybe this includes generating a "starship character".

"Jump" tech, or something to replace to extend travel distances and cut down travel time.

Something more deadly and more portable than PGMP to FGMP weapons.

Something more protective than battledress; personal shields from "DUNE" come to mind.

Hyperlink (Star Trek subspcae) communication throughout whatever replaces the Imperium.

Update the races in terms of tech and social achievements ... maybe the K'Kree finally learn to tolerate meat eaters?

The more I think about it, the more I like my idea of the Droyne starting to setup a real interstellar government that rivals the old 3I.

Maybe some Virushi get a little militant.

What about the Vulc- ... err... I mean Darrians? They gotta be zipping around in warp drive ships by now, and maybe this time they have a real working star trigger!

Don't change the Vargr too much. I think they're a hoot as is!

Lots of other machines, not just starships, might have real AI personalities.

Robot/Droid char-gen is long overdue (no, I haven't read book 8).

Bring back the Sword Worlds.

That's about all I got. I gotta go visit the dentist and explain why I haven't been flossing since she last saw me

 

[Blue Ghost]

Huh, back from the dentist, and no replies. What, was it the starships as character thing that did it?

Seriously, some of things I put down may sound ridiculous, but we're talking a new incarnation of Traveller. Think outside the box, gents.

 

[captainjack]

I was wondering just how (general thoughts) people would know jump drive works again?

Best I could come up with off the top of my head was something along the lines of an accidental tourist. Some pre-trouble ship full of Relics is discovered, awakened, and they freak and run away. Naturally, for them (the Relics) they don't know Jumping shouldn't work, so they Jump, and it works, much to the surprise, shock and awe of those who found them. Then the rush is on to re-engineer Jump drive tech. Meanwhile...

...in another system a week later the sudden appearance of that same old ship Jumping in does likewise for another world. And so on from there.

Want a fun way to find out jump works again ? Any ship in transit when the wave effect maximized, stayed in jumpspace till it was permiable again.

One day, at the 100d limit and thereabouts, ships pop out of jumpspace.

I leave it for discussion as to weather or not the crews experience the normal week, or the actual time - and are long dead. Ships exiting jumpspace with their entry vector and a dead hand at the helm makes for a pretty interesting week for nearby space....but so does having a few jump trained crews (and new ships) suddenly appear at some systems.