[MT] Craft Design Walkthrough - M589 Sangendar

[atpollard]

What if we design the support for the solar cells like a vehicle?

Using hull UCP 0.074 as a starting point, it encloses a 1 kl cube (1 meter cube) with a ‘hull’ that weighs 0.1 tons (100 kg) and costs 1600 credits. Since this hull has 6 sides at 1 square meter each, we can unfold it into 6 plates of 1 square meter each, giving us a starting point of 1 square meter of solar panel support plate weighs 17 kilograms (100/6=16.67) and costs 267 credits (1600/6=266.7). Note that these values were chosen because they represent a ‘worse case’ on the vehicle design system – larger hulls cost and weigh less per unit volume (and per square meter of surface) than the selected hull.

Applying the x 0.6 cost modifier for a Box Hull to the basic support plate yields a revised value of 160 credits and 17 kilograms per square meter.

Since the Solar Power tables start at TL 6, we will apply the TL vs Armor Type modifiers to our 1 meter square as follows:
* TL 6 = 160 Credits & 17 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 7 = 288 Credits & 7 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 9 = 256 Credits & 6 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 10 = 176 Credits & 5 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 12 = 160 Credits & 4 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 14 = 160 Credits & 2 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 17 = 208 Credits & 1 Kilograms per Square Meter

These values are not quite finished yet. The above values are for Armor 4 (x1) which is the value used on the enclosed air raft and the minimum listed in Hard Times for a disposable atmospheric rocket. For starship level protection in deep space (from radiation and micrometeorites), the minimum hull value is 40 points which is 33 times as thick as the Armor 4 described above. The Armor 40 Solar Panel (support only) would be:
* TL 6 = 5280 Credits & 550 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 7 = 9504 Credits & 231 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 9 = 8448 Credits & 198 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 10 = 5808 Credits & 165 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 12 = 5280 Credits & 132 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 14 = 5280 Credits & 66 Kilograms per Square Meter
* TL 17 = 6864 Credits & 33 Kilograms per Square Meter

In my opinion, the Armor 4 panels should be adequate to represent the fragile panels that are in use today which would require the craft to be stationary or travelling at a constant speed on a steady course (no maneuvering forces on the Solar Wing). The Armor 40 panels would for all practical purposes represent wings of Starship Hull that increase the area available to mount solar panels and would be able to resist the forces of a maneuvering starship.

As a quick estimate of the folded volume of the Solar Panel, I suggest that 1 cubic meter per 500 kilograms is about right.

Remember that this is just the folding structure to mount the Solar Panels to. The actual solar panels still need to be purchased separately.

 

[Major B]

What if we design the support for the solar cells like a vehicle?

But that would be far too easy - give me a minute and I'll think of a harder way... after all, I am an officer.

Thanks very much for this. I'm going to play with it tonight and hopefully post an update tomorrow.

For the Sangendar I think that the 4G panels would be optimum, as the fusion drive powers the systems until it reaches station, then it can deploy the solar panels to increase the time it can remain there.

While I'm working on this, have any thoughts on the remote-piloting console I laid out further down the thread?

 

[atpollard]

While I'm working on this, have any thoughts on the remote-piloting console I laid out further down the thread?

Two thoughts, actualy. I didn't mention the other sections of the design because I thought that they hit the mark perfectly.

Thought 1:
The whole 'PACE' discusion about communications was absolutely fantastic!

I have always found the Sensors / Communications / Control Panels sections of MT vehicle design a P.I.T.A. since I (leaning towards OCD about such things) will pour over all of the options before settling on the EM suite that does everything for a fraction of the weight and price. Then I am left wondering why they wasted all of this space detailing choices when one is so obviously superior.


Thought 2:
Many of the video games provide a wingman whose craft is slaved to the leader's controls - like the return fire program in CT. Perhaps each remote pilot could control several ships that maneuver and attack as a group with the human pilot acting as more of a commander - designating targets for the quasi-autonimous pilotless craft.

Such a system would benefit from a large holodisplay (improved situational awareness) and a computer-console system with enough control points to control ALL of the ships under his command. Thus you could install a 2 ship command console, a 5 ship command console or a 10 ship command console (just picking values out of a hat).

This would justify the often used 'house rule' in High Guard (CT) that fighters can combine their attack into a 'battery' aimed at a single target (like multi-turret ships do). With 5 drones under a single pilot command, this finally makes sense.

The rules on using higher power computers to reduce the required crew might provide guidelines on how many craft one person can 'pilot'.

 

[Major B]

Update Posted in the file library!

Updates to the original version are now posted in the file library.

The big changes are:

- addition of basic environment controls
- addition of an extendable solar power array, based on the suggestions from atpollard
- reduction of the hull displacement from .6 to .5 tons
- reduction of the crew requirements from 3 to 2
- upgrade of the remote console from a model 0 computer to a model 0/bis
- edited the UCP sheet to correct spelling errors, change the system description, and update for new design capabilities

Thanks once again to atpollard - your suggestions have allowed for a much more capable design and (with the reduced hull size) a much more interoperable system too. With a .5 Td hull, the M589 can now be launched and recovered suing the drop capsule accessories that are already onboard many vessels. This means that dedicated systems do not need to be devised.

 

[Major B]

Updated UCP Summary

Here is an updated UCP summary that takes into account all of the new changes to this system:

[B][U][FONT=Courier New]CraftID[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: M589 Sangendar [Guardian] RPC-CNICS (Remotely-Piloted Craft –[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Communications, Navigation, & Intelligence Collection System), TL 15[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Hull[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: 1/2, Displ=0.5, Config=7USL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=6.43 tons,[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Loaded=6.72 tons[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Power[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: 1/2, Fusion=2.42 MW, Dur=31/95[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Loco[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: 1/2, Maneuver=2, NOE=0, Cruise=1,590, Top=2,120, Agility=0[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Commo[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: 3x Maser=Far Orbit (500,000 km)[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]    Maser=Far Orbit (500,000 km) – backup (unpowered)[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]    Laser=Far Orbit (500,000 km) – backup (unpowered)[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]    2x Radio=Far Orbit (500,000 km)[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Sensors[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: Act EMS=Far Orbit (500,000 km), Pass EMS=Far Orbit (500,000 km), [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Densitometer=LowPen (250 m), Neutrino=10kw, ActObjScan=Routine, [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]ActObjPin=Routine, PassObjScan=Routine, PassObjPin=Routine, [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]PassEngScan=Routine, PassEngPin=Routine.[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Off[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: None[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Def[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: DefDM=+2[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Control[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: Computer=0/bis, CompLink x35[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Accom[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: Crew=2 (remotely-piloted), no life support installed[/FONT]
 
[B][U][FONT=Courier New]Other[/FONT][/U][/B][FONT=Courier New]: Fuel=4.123kl, Cargo=0, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Faint[/FONT]

 

[DonM]

and the errata?

 

[Major B]

and the errata?

Don, I have the solar panel errata entry almost ready to post.

Do you want something on the remote terminal or the expanded thruster tables? I thought of those as house rules, but can write those up too if you want.

I'll post the solar panel entry here, probably later today.

 

[DonM]

Hmm... not sure... anyone else have thoughts about this?

 

[Major B]

Solar Cell Errata (draft)

Don,

Here's a draft errata entry to cover the solar panel supports:

[B][FONT=Courier New]Page 64, Step 1, Solar Cells (addition)[/FONT][/B][FONT=Courier New]: If the available hull surface area [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]is not sufficient for the size solar cell required, extendable solar arrays [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]may be installed. These extendable arrays can be stored within the hull [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]until needed, and extended when additional solar power is required. The [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]support structure for these extendable arrays can be either of light or [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]heavy design. Heavy arrays are in reality extensions to the craft hull and [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]can be deployed at any time. Light arrays cannot tolerate the same stresses [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]that a heavy array can withstand, so can only be extended while the craft is [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]stationary or if the craft is moving at a constant rate while in vacuum.[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Courier New]The following tables list the characteristics of light and heavy extendable [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]solar array support structures. The solar cells to be affixed to the support [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]structure must be purchased separately. Characteristics are stated per square [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]meter of supported surface area; costs are in Credits (Cr), Weight is in [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]metric tons, Volume is in kiloliters and represents the volume required [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]inside the hull to store the panels while stowed.[/FONT]
 
[B][FONT=Courier New]Light extendable solar array support structure[/FONT][/B]
[U][FONT=Courier New]TL[/FONT][/U][FONT=Courier New]   [U]Material[/U]              [U]Volume[/U]  [U]Weight[/U]  [U]Price[/U][/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 6   Hard Steel             0.034   0.017    160[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 7   Composite Laminate     0.014   0.007    288[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 9   Lt Wt Comp Laminate    0.012   0.006    256[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]10   Crystaliron            0.010   0.005    176[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]12   Superdense             0.008   0.004    160[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]14   Bonded Superdense      0.004   0.002    160[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17   Coherent Superdense    0.002   0.001    208[/FONT]
 
[B][FONT=Courier New]Heavy extendable solar array support structure[/FONT][/B]
[U][FONT=Courier New]TL[/FONT][/U][FONT=Courier New]   [U]Material[/U]              [U]Volume[/U]  [U]Weight[/U]  [U]Price[/U][/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 6   Hard Steel             1.100   0.550  5,280[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 7   Composite Laminate     0.484   0.242  9,504[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New] 9   Lt Wt Comp Laminate    0.385   0.193  8,448[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]10   Crystaliron            0.341   0.171  5,808[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]12   Superdense             0.286   0.143  5,280[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]14   Bonded Superdense      0.154   0.077  5,280[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17   Coherent Superdense    0.066   0.033  6,864[/FONT]

 

[atpollard]

Hmm... not sure... anyone else have thoughts about this?

Personally, I like options that fill in holes in existing tables or expand the top and bottoms of the tables. If the new tables are compatible with the existing data, then add them.

Just flag them as an addition rather than errata.

 

[Major B]

Personally, I like options that fill in holes in existing tables or expand the top and bottoms of the tables. If the new tables are compatible with the existing data, then add them.

Just flag them as an addition rather than errata.

The only reason I had in mind to keep the expanded table as a house rule was my assumption that the table in the RM ended at 20 Td on purpose. In other words, the designers were stating that craft smaller than 20 Td were not allowed to have thrusters.

Maybe that was a poor assumption, but I can't think of any other reason for the 10 Td Rampart fighter from the Imperial Encyclopedia (and the updated version in Rebellion Sourcebook) would have Standard Grav suspensions rather than thrusters.

Don, do you know if the 20 Td lower limit was intentional? If not, I'll post a table for your review.

Actually, this discussion is helping to get me geared up for the next designs I want to work on. With the Sangendar done, it's time to build some fighters of various types, and then start on the Frontier vessel that will carry them.

 

[aramis]

Personally, I like options that fill in holes in existing tables or expand the top and bottoms of the tables. If the new tables are compatible with the existing data, then add them.

Just flag them as an addition rather than errata.

I really think Marc needs to consider a re-layout version of MT as a singular volume. Release on DTRPG and/or via CD, never mind the dead tree edition, and see how it sells. Include all the eratta/addenda, and have a handful of MT grogs check for eratta.

 

[DonM]

As much as I would like to see a cleaned up MT rules set, Marc's time is better spent elsewhere, and I'm not sure he can actually do what you propose until 2012 (there might be restrictions on his side as part of the Mongoose deal).

After all, if I was Mongoose, I would have insisted that Marc not release new editions of the older rules. The compilations are ok, but brand new competing products?

NOTE: I have not seen the contract, and certainly would not ask to, and this is just supposition and theory, based on Marc's reactions to the numerous people who have contacted him asking for cleaned up versions of the old editions to be released.

NOTE2: I was not speaking for Marc in this post. I was speaking for Don McKinney, the OCD guy who collects MT errata.

 

[aramis]

I don't think Marc should be the one doing the work on it. No offense to Marc, but layout seems not to be his knack.

As to the feasability vis-a-vis Mongoose, point taken... however... this is a product idea people have been getting hostile responses from MWM on since the 90's.

 

[Major B]

Need a canon ruling!

Don, do you know if the 20 Td lower limit was intentional? If not, I'll post a table for your review.

Getting back on track, for Don or anyone else who can answer:

Is breaking the 20 Td limit on thrusters a break with canon (that will predicate a house rule) or is it acceptable to extend the locomotion table to smaller displacement tonnages?

 

[atpollard]

Getting back on track, for Don or anyone else who can answer: Is breaking the 20 Td limit on thrusters a break with canon (that will predicate a house rule) or is it acceptable to extend the locomotion table to smaller displacement tonnages?

From the original CT Striker: "K. Grav Generators: A grav vehicle requires grav generators installed in its chassis. Each .02 m3 of grav generators produces 1 ton of thrust and requires 0.1 megawatts of power from the power plant. They weigh 2 tons and cost Cr 1000,000 per m3."

So no chassis minimum and thrusters as small as 0.2 cubic meters.


In MT, what powers an Air/Raft?
It is much smaller than 20 tons.

 

[DonM]

Yes, an air/raft is definitely smaller than 20 tons. Remember designs like this:


CraftID: Mockingbird Gravbike, TL12, Cr6590
Hull: 1/2, Disp=0.037, Config=3USL, Armor=1F, Loaded=339.1kg
Power: 1/2, 2*FuelCell=0.14MW, Dur=95hrs
Loco: 1/2, StdGrav=1t, Max Speed=300kph, Cruise=225kph, NOE=40kph,
MaxAccel=1.95G
Comm: Radio=VDist(50km)
Sensors: Radar=Distant(5km), ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form
Off: Hardpoints=1
Def: -
Control: Elec*2
Accom: Seats=Open*1(Pilot), Env=none
Other: Fuel=0.057kl, Cargo=0, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate

(c) 1992 by Robert Dean

This always reminds me of those silly flying motorcycles from Galactica 1980...

 

[aramis]

Arthur, Don: MT Thrusters are not the same as grav generators. Grav suspensions are on the next page... and are mass-based. SGrav is thrust based.

The caveat is that the gravitic suspensions, while they produce thrust, only do so within a gravity well.

The Thruster Plates are not so limited.

Back on to the MDrive question:

Maneuver Drive: Space-faring craft use grav modules or
thruster technology for locomotion. This mode of locomotion
is called a maneuver drive. Thruster drives require massive
plates and vast quantities of energy. They cannot be installed
in vehicles.

Thrusters are volume based.
Given that the launch is 20Td, and uses .4 units, I don't see why we can't simply set 0.4 units as the smallest drive, and 20Td as the smallest focusable volume.

DEFINITION OF COMMON TERMS
The following definitions apply to the transportation systems.
Craft: Any transportation unit is a craft. Craft may be any
size. Types of craft include vehicles, small craft, spaceships,
starships, aircraft, and watercraft.
Aircraft: Any craft designed to fly in an atmosphere. Aircraft
may be fixed wing, rotary wing (helicopter), or lighter-than-air
craft.
Vehicle: Any craft with a volume of 270 kiloliters or less (20
tons displacement or less). Most vehicles are world surface
transportation systems like groundcars, AWs, or airhafts.
Small Craft: Any craft with a volume of 270 to 1350 kiloliters
(20 to 100 tons displacement). Small craft commonly travel in
space.
Spaceships: Any craft with a volume of 1350 kiloliters or
more (100 tons displacement or more) which is equipped with
a maneuver drive, but not a jump drive.
Starships: Any spaceship equipped with a jump drive is a
starship.
Vessel: Any craft with a volume of 1350 kiloliters or more
(100 tons displacement or more). Vessels may be spaceships,
starships, or other craft.
Watercraft: Any craft designed to operate in water. Watercraft
may be small watercraft (boats), large watercraft (ships),
or hovercraft.

 

[atpollard]

Arthur, Don: MT Thrusters are not the same as grav generators. Grav suspensions are on the next page... and are mass-based. SGrav is thrust based.

The caveat is that the gravitic suspensions, while they produce thrust, only do so within a gravity well.

The Thruster Plates are not so limited.

Back on to the MDrive question:

Thrusters are volume based.
Given that the launch is 20Td, and uses .4 units, I don't see why we can't simply set 0.4 units as the smallest drive, and 20Td as the smallest focusable volume.

Thank you for clearing that up.
Two things now seem clear:

1. Thrusters are limited to 20 dTon and larger craft.
2. Semantics were not the authors strongest suit.

"Thruster" generate no thrust but are a displacement based flavour of magic reactionless drive.
"Grav Drives" or "Grav Suspensions" generate thrust and are a thrust-based flavour of magic reactionless drive.

[sarcasm] How could anyone possibly be confused with naming conventions like that? [/sarcasm]

As a practical matter, Tanks and Fighters would probably be well served to be at least 20 dTons and Thruster based - then Pile On The Armor, 'cause Thrusters don't care.

 

[atpollard]

So in the Referee's Manual, page 65 just below the Maneuver Drive Table, what is the TL 9 "one anti-grav unit" (as opposed to the TL 11 "one thruster unit")?

Both appear to refer to the Maneuver Drive (non-thrust based propoulsion) table, which would make "one anti-grav unit" a type of volume-based "thruster" and not a thrust-based propulsion (like the 'Grav' units on page 66.)