Multi-TL Imperial society - How does it work ?

[AtlanticFriend]

One of the things I found most fascinating in Traveller is the coexistence, within the Imperium as well as within independent interstellar powers, of very different TL societies.

I wonder if there has ever been a supplement describing how such "multi-TL" societies function? Is there an Imperial policy to boost low-TL societies up to Imperium standards, is there on the contrary a general policy of leaving each world advance in its own rythm, or even a policy to limit high-level technology injection into low-TL societies so it does not disrupt them? Are low-TL citizens allowed to freely immigrate to high-TL worlds and come back to their native world? Do low-TL citizens harbor resentment towards their high-TL "masters", considering that their advanced technology could considerably improve living conditions, and save many lives that low-TL medicine (in particular) condemn to death or grievious incapacities?

I'd be curious to know what is canon on that issue, and what's the opinion of fellow CotI members think about that TL question.

 

[aramis]

There is a reference somewhere in one of the CT adventures that there is a TL limit on imports to low-tech worlds.

We know canonically that the Imperial forces include even low tech member worlds' troops... and are equipped only a TL or two above, if above TL.

 

[Condottiere]

Probably the same way as nowadays, hence the scifi trope of Space Amish.

It's usually a question of whether the low technological societies have something that the high technological societies want.

In Traveller's case, lanthanum could be an example.

 

[kilemall]

I've boiled it down to either TL is a function of economic clout/desirability to be able to import goods, particularly for a Non-IND world, a cultural choice as noted upthread re: space amish, and planetary collapse of one sort or another for pop 8+ planets.


If a planet can only pay for TL5 goods and have the light industrial/repair infrastructure to keep it, that's what it gets.



Remember, the Imperium is all about trade and having some planets that are cheap/expoitable resources and/or labor that can be sold goods would be an option.



And probably experience over 100s of years where forced development has been attempted and failed disastrously in many cases.


Also, the Imperium has to maintain peace and trade routes, it's cheaper to concentrate combat and political resources to productive worlds and not engage in the sort of heavy handed development from above that would force more uniform TL and break the sociopoliitical contract of planetary self-rule.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

There is a reference somewhere in one of the CT adventures that there is a TL limit on imports to low-tech worlds.

We know canonically that the Imperial forces include even low tech member worlds' troops... and are equipped only a TL or two above, if above TL.

That would make sense.

I know Traveller5 states that there's no Prime Directive to let planets develop "naturally" and that insterstellar trade is a force in disseminating technology, but I wonder how the coexistence of a TL14 Startown in the middle of a low-TL society works.

I suppose that, at low enough TL, the world inhabitants are not aware that they are Imperial subjects (let alone citizens), since the idea of a vast empire of fellow men spanning the stars would be beyond them. What they'd known is that "star-beings" exist and visit their world sometimes, bringing "gifts" (that end up in the marketplace or are given through the temple) and speaking only to their High Lords - who have made allegiance to them. That alone is enough to wreak havoc on a low-TL society - notably by possibly reshaping its religious beliefs and opening questions on the almightiness of its kings, shahs and emperors.

At higher TL the Imperium is I suppose a reality for every inhabitant, taught in School and freed of all taboo and superstition : the "star beings" are Imperial Scouts and Merchants, they are human (mostly), they just enjoy fantastically advanced technology and living conditions. That can lead to admiration (geez these people are so smart!), that can lead to emulation (let's attain that sweet, sweet TL13 level!), or that can lead to resentment (why them and not us?) or political conflict ("how come our glorious egalitarian Republic has to bow down to a sinister Imperialistic oligarchy?" or "how come we cling to an outdated democracy system when one has only to look at the Starport to see the future is Imperialism?").

Thinking on those lines, I suppose the Imperium must have two policies : a certain control on who/what goes into low-tech worlds (even if the locals agree, traders can't be allowed to sell WMDs or buy their own private TL13 continent), and at the same time, tools to gradually bring society as a whole into the Imperial fold so as to defuse potential conflicts, and allow the Imperium to enjoy full use of the planet's resources.

 

[mike wightman]

It works however you decide for the Imperium of your Traveller universe. Not a very useful reply but I will try to expand on it.

We were initially introduced to the Imperium as a setting for Traveller through the early adventures and the Spinward Marches. Set on the very edge of empire we learned a little about how things are done on the frontier but almost nothing about the core sectors of the empire. There is an interesting bit of library data in A1 about the colonisation of a world that paints a vert dark image for how imperial citizens live in the core sectors.

What we have learned about the wider Imperium has often been nothing more than fanon, and quite a lot of it misses the mark.

There is a new MgT book in the works that is going to detail the Imperium - it will either be very good or it won't be...

 

[mike wightman]

There is a reference somewhere in one of the CT adventures that there is a TL limit on imports to low-tech worlds.

Any idea which one or in what context?

 

[mike wightman]

So here is how I think it works - note that this is based on a great deal of reading of original source material.

Early Imperium - the Imperium grew out of the Sylean Federation and expanded through a combination of trade deals you couldn't refuse and direct military conquest.
The trade deal expansion would see worlds gain access to Imperial technology - TL12+ stuff at the time - and so could quickly advance to that TL. Some worlds remained of a lower TL base due to their limited manufacturing capacity, but high TL toys are pretty cheap to import.

The Imperium empowered local representatives to develop worlds, subsectors even whole sectors, how they chose to do this was left to them, the Imperial government does not involve itself with the welfare, standard of living or the local laws and culture of its member worlds.
[more later have to go]

 

[AtlanticFriend]

Any idea which one or in what context?

I think there is one in Grand Survey about Scouts having to avoid technoshock when they discover new Sophonts. The Behind Blue Eyes MT campaign also contained some references (only concealable hi-TL goods could be taken in the campaign low-TL world).

 

[kilemall]

Any idea which one or in what context?

Isn't that the Forboldn entries?


Ya it comes across in the wiki.


https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Forboldn_Project


Bleak enough that I remember it lo these many decades later as particularly unpleasant.

 

[whartung]

There is an interesting bit of library data in A1 about the colonisation of a world that paints a vert dark image for how imperial citizens live in the core sectors.

Honestly the Imperium is getting more and more a place I wouldn't want to spend time it.

Originally, my impression was it was mostly aloof with a some MegaCorps doing MegaCorpy things.

But nowadays, it just seems worse and worse.

There is a new MgT book in the works that is going to detail the Imperium - it will either be very good or it won't be...

Can you expand on that?

My biggest issue with things like this, and "canon" is that those with the Imperial Writ to "create canon" don't necessarily honor it, and just Make Stuff Up that's grossly in conflict with what we've been told in the past.

The inconsistency in the various mechanics of the Game don't bother me so much (it is a game after all), but the fact that we can't even get fundamentals like Jump drive "settled" is just chafing.

Much lest the long tedium of the Book 2 v Book 5 threads trying to shove square pegs in to round holes and find corners in circular rooms.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't that the Forboldn entries?

The Forboldn entry is what i was referring to as giving a bleak view of life in the core systems yes.

But I was wondering where Aramis had found a reference to limiting imports by TL - since this is completely against Imperial trading policy...

 

[mike wightman]

Can you expand on that?

I think you sum up my concerns in your very next sentence:

My biggest issue with things like this, and "canon" is that those with the Imperial Writ to "create canon" don't necessarily honor it, and just Make Stuff Up that's grossly in conflict with what we've been told in the past.

Many Traveller authors appear to do very little research into CT sources, which leads to conflict. You then have game line authors - DGP for MT and the GURPS crowd for GT - who appear to have taken their head canon and made it holy writ, even if it doesn't fit the setting, causes conflict with canon, or retcons canon.

MgT has had some very bad canon 'proofreading' over the years. If rumour be true a rather famous MgT campaign was written by someone who hadn't read any CT material and just made up stuff based on third party fanon descriptions of how they thought the setting fit together - look at the mess they made of Mercenary and the early Alien books as examples.

The inconsistency in the various mechanics of the Game don't bother me so much (it is a game after all), but the fact that we can't even get fundamentals like Jump drive "settled" is just chafing.

These days I assume that T5 is the setting bible for the OTU, which is why I set my Third Imperium game in the proto-Third Imperium of the CT days.

Much lest the long tedium of the Book 2 v Book 5 threads trying to shove square pegs in to round holes and find corners in circular rooms.

Every few years certain topics come around, and around and around (Highwaymen) - every now and then someone comes up with something that is interesting to consider, but ultimately you are right about square pegs,,,

 

[whartung]

These days I assume that T5 is the setting bible for the OTU, which is why I set my Third Imperium game in the proto-Third Imperium of the CT days.

I think that's a valid point of view. If you look at the rule set publications as refinements of the core ideals, I think it works ok.

Each rule set "learns more about the Universe" and codifies, thus not conflicting with canon per se, but usurping it.

On the other hand, I sort of stick with TNE simply because they seem to have done the most thorough jobs via FF&S and ripples in the pond that it created of creating a "consistent" universe.

Nobody else has been as thorough or consistent as the TNE did, in spite of the heresy's it flaunted. (You can build M-Drive ships with TNE if you like, and make an M-Drive universe quite easily.)

 

[Timerover51]

You have a wide range of Tech Levels on Earth presently, ranging from the Stone Age to current hi-tech. Basically, it is a matter of what can a world produce on its own, or is it simpler to import higher Tech Level equipment. How many countries on Earth at present are producing computers? How many countries on Earth are producing jet aircraft? What Tech Level is say El Salvador in reality, or the Central African Republic, or some of the Pacific islands that are now independent with very few resources? The Solomon Islands as still using a large number of dug-out canoes, along with outboard motor propelled launches. Note, the outboards are all imported, and for the most part, the islanders lack the knowledge to repair them, so they simply buy a new motor. Very few have any skills at driving a motor vehicle, as there are not that many vehicles, and also not that many roads or terrain to drive on.

Then you have the Amish and Mennonites who are careful about picking and choosing what technology is acceptable. Power tools for wood-working are okay, automobiles and pickup trucks are not. Cell phones and computers are okay for business, but televisions are out. Visit Shipshewana, Indiana some time to see how this plays out.

 

[mike wightman]

I think that's a valid point of view. If you look at the rule set publications as refinements of the core ideals, I think it works ok.

Each rule set "learns more about the Universe" and codifies, thus not conflicting with canon per se, but usurping it.

On the other hand, I sort of stick with TNE simply because they seem to have done the most thorough jobs via FF&S and ripples in the pond that it created of creating a "consistent" universe.

Nobody else has been as thorough or consistent as the TNE did, in spite of the heresy's it flaunted. (You can build M-Drive ships with TNE if you like, and make an M-Drive universe quite easily.)

This will upset a lot of people but TNE was the definitive version of Traveller produced by GDW.

 

[Timerover51]

This will upset a lot of people but TNE was the definitive version of Traveller produced by GDW.

How much input did Mark have in it? I do not see any credits regarding him in the Traveller Wiki. Frank Chadwick is listed as one of the authors.

 

[whartung]

How much input did Mark have in it?

I'd hazard to say "As much as he wanted".

I do not see any credits regarding him in the Traveller Wiki. Frank Chadwick is listed as one of the authors.

Chadwick and Dave Nilsen are listed as Game Design. Additional Design Loren Wiseman and Lester Smith

Design Oversight by Dave Nilsen.

I'm guessing Frank did the crunchy parts, while Dave did the story development.

Far as I can tell, at a casual glance, Marcs last major credit was The Rebellion Sourcebook, 4 years earlier.

 

[mike wightman]

How much input did Mark have in it? I do not see any credits regarding him in the Traveller Wiki. Frank Chadwick is listed as one of the authors.

None, he had left the company.
He does get a credit for original game concept in the TNE core rulebook.
Which is why he doesn't know what the Empress Wave was or what the atrocity committed by the Star Vikings that would end the threat of the Black Imperium.

 

[whartung]

None, he had left the company.

Ah, I didn't realize he left.