CmdrDaniel1970
SOC-1
How does the multiclassing setup actually work in conjunction with the prior history
Multiclassing
- Thread starter CmdrDaniel1970
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Close Sinbad Sam but I think the question is referring to Class Levels more than Prior History.
The confusion is understandable given that the same names were used for both Classes and Prior History Careers. If you can keep them both clearly seperate in the mind it make it easier to grasp the intent.
For example: You don't have to be in the Academic Prior History Career for a term to take levels in the Academic class. You might be in a term of Navy Prior History and gain xp to add a Character Level and choose to take it as Academic Class. This could represent a young Navy rating taking instruction in some field or a Navy officer giving a course in some field. Or it could even be the character is taking a correspondence course in their off-duty time.
Another example: While in the Army Prior History for a term you gain xp to add a Character Level. Feeling a little larcenous you take a level in the Rouge Class. This might be reasoned as the character being on the take or running a black market in "lost" military shipments. Or it could be more like the classic finder, the guy in every unit who knows where to get what you need by trading what somebody else needs, usually through several complicated steps.
So, as Sinbad says, as long as you meet the multiclass restrictions for a Class you can take a level in it even if you are not in the Prior History Career of the same name that term.
Also as noted, and different from D20, in T20 there is no complicated multi-class xp penalty scheme to worry about.
The confusion is understandable given that the same names were used for both Classes and Prior History Careers. If you can keep them both clearly seperate in the mind it make it easier to grasp the intent.
For example: You don't have to be in the Academic Prior History Career for a term to take levels in the Academic class. You might be in a term of Navy Prior History and gain xp to add a Character Level and choose to take it as Academic Class. This could represent a young Navy rating taking instruction in some field or a Navy officer giving a course in some field. Or it could even be the character is taking a correspondence course in their off-duty time.
Another example: While in the Army Prior History for a term you gain xp to add a Character Level. Feeling a little larcenous you take a level in the Rouge Class. This might be reasoned as the character being on the take or running a black market in "lost" military shipments. Or it could be more like the classic finder, the guy in every unit who knows where to get what you need by trading what somebody else needs, usually through several complicated steps.
So, as Sinbad says, as long as you meet the multiclass restrictions for a Class you can take a level in it even if you are not in the Prior History Career of the same name that term.
Also as noted, and different from D20, in T20 there is no complicated multi-class xp penalty scheme to worry about.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Oh, and...
Welcome aboard long time lurker Cmdr. Daniel
Welcome aboard long time lurker Cmdr. Daniel
Hail CommanderDaniel,
The Multiclissing aspect of prior history took a while to sink in, but once I grasped it, it truly is a wonderful aspect of the game and enriches character creation.
As indicated above you need to make a distinction between class and career. What was not mentioned is that there are restrictions. While you can take levels in Rouge while serving in the Army, the reverse is not true. Characters can only take a level in a Service Class (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts) while actively serving in that class. There are other restrictions like you can only multiclass as a Mercenary if you have served one term as in the Army, Navy, or Marines. Be sure to read the section on multiclassing in the class descriptions in chapter 3.
Rover
The Multiclissing aspect of prior history took a while to sink in, but once I grasped it, it truly is a wonderful aspect of the game and enriches character creation.
As indicated above you need to make a distinction between class and career. What was not mentioned is that there are restrictions. While you can take levels in Rouge while serving in the Army, the reverse is not true. Characters can only take a level in a Service Class (Army, Navy, Marines, Scouts) while actively serving in that class. There are other restrictions like you can only multiclass as a Mercenary if you have served one term as in the Army, Navy, or Marines. Be sure to read the section on multiclassing in the class descriptions in chapter 3.
Rover
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Multi-classing in Prior history, looks good on paper, but doesn't work out as well in practice.
Characters are better off specializing in T20 than taking a bunch of low level skills. You need lots more skill ranks in T20 to equate to l point of skill in CT/MT. For example the T20 equivalent to Pilot-4 in CT/MT is around Pilot-12 in T20. Further if your game is going to have a bit of combat remember that multi-classing severely hurts a character's BAB, unless the character switches between Marine and Mercenary, or something similar. I have seen level 9-10 characters with a BAB of 2 thanks to multi-classing.
A good multi-classed character requires excellent timing. And if the multi-classing is not complementary it should be avoided. (So picking two classes that aren't headed in the same direction simply because you want to increase the number of skills available is a bad idea.)
Remember that when leveling up that only skills that are homeworld skills and class skills for the class you are adding the level in are considered class skills. Skills that aren't on your current class' class skill list are cross class skills regardless of how many ranks you already have in it.
Characters are better off specializing in T20 than taking a bunch of low level skills. You need lots more skill ranks in T20 to equate to l point of skill in CT/MT. For example the T20 equivalent to Pilot-4 in CT/MT is around Pilot-12 in T20. Further if your game is going to have a bit of combat remember that multi-classing severely hurts a character's BAB, unless the character switches between Marine and Mercenary, or something similar. I have seen level 9-10 characters with a BAB of 2 thanks to multi-classing.
A good multi-classed character requires excellent timing. And if the multi-classing is not complementary it should be avoided. (So picking two classes that aren't headed in the same direction simply because you want to increase the number of skills available is a bad idea.)
Remember that when leveling up that only skills that are homeworld skills and class skills for the class you are adding the level in are considered class skills. Skills that aren't on your current class' class skill list are cross class skills regardless of how many ranks you already have in it.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
BTW Rogue/Merchant doesn't work well and isn't what people really want when they choose that combination, almost strictly based on the class names. Properly timed Mercenary/Merchant is the Han Solo type.
Hail BTL
Multi-classing in Prior history, looks good on paper, but doesn't work out as well in practice.
I must disagree with you here. T20 multiclassing in prior history is, IMHO, one of the best features of the game. It allows an extreme amount of flexibility in creating almost any character concept a player can dream up. Want to be a plastic surgeon for the Mob? Go to university, join the rouges and take levels in professional. Want to run a black market from the Motor Pool? Join the Army and take Levels in Rouge. Want to play a Military Historian? Join the Navy and take ranks in Academic. How about the legal counsel for a mercenary company? Join the mercenaries and take levels in professional. In general I make players come up with a justification as to why they want to run an academic-barbarian, but the selection is wide open.
Granted care must be taken in planning out your character. And you are right to advise against multiclassing willy-nilly in several classes just to build a broad range of skills. In general a party dynamic is better served with a small group of specialists than a group of Jacks-of-all-Trades, Masters-of-none.
All that being said, playing a character that goes through 1 service prior history without multiclassing can be fun too. It all depends on the player character concept. I think that the problems with multiclassing come from poor planning or an ill defined character concept than with multiclassing itself.
Rover
Multi-classing in Prior history, looks good on paper, but doesn't work out as well in practice.
I must disagree with you here. T20 multiclassing in prior history is, IMHO, one of the best features of the game. It allows an extreme amount of flexibility in creating almost any character concept a player can dream up. Want to be a plastic surgeon for the Mob? Go to university, join the rouges and take levels in professional. Want to run a black market from the Motor Pool? Join the Army and take Levels in Rouge. Want to play a Military Historian? Join the Navy and take ranks in Academic. How about the legal counsel for a mercenary company? Join the mercenaries and take levels in professional. In general I make players come up with a justification as to why they want to run an academic-barbarian, but the selection is wide open.
Granted care must be taken in planning out your character. And you are right to advise against multiclassing willy-nilly in several classes just to build a broad range of skills. In general a party dynamic is better served with a small group of specialists than a group of Jacks-of-all-Trades, Masters-of-none.
All that being said, playing a character that goes through 1 service prior history without multiclassing can be fun too. It all depends on the player character concept. I think that the problems with multiclassing come from poor planning or an ill defined character concept than with multiclassing itself.
Rover
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Actually the real problems come from timing. A good multi-class character coming out of Prior history has to be exquisitely timed. If your timing is off just a hair (with the number of random factors involved having your timing off is easier than getting it right.) the character is not going to work as well as you might think. It is a neat concept but timing of multi-classing is critical in Prior history.
Now I am not saying don't multi-class, I am just pointing out that I have yet to see it work out, under game conditions, the way the player envisioned. (Sure you can roll up 20 characters and get it right, but if you are rolling up the character that you are playing, and only rolling one, then it works so infrequently that you might as well not bother with it.)
Further keeping the number of classes down to two has a greater chance of success and ensuring that the character classes don't have opposite goals. In the case where the classes have opposite goals you usually wind up with the worst aspects of both classes. Further if you have a service class, except for Scout, you will be multi-classing anyway. (Generally in a more controlled environment.)
Three or more classes in a T20 character virtually never works out. And certainly never works in the way the player envisioned the character before starting Prior History.
Now I am not saying don't multi-class, I am just pointing out that I have yet to see it work out, under game conditions, the way the player envisioned. (Sure you can roll up 20 characters and get it right, but if you are rolling up the character that you are playing, and only rolling one, then it works so infrequently that you might as well not bother with it.)
Further keeping the number of classes down to two has a greater chance of success and ensuring that the character classes don't have opposite goals. In the case where the classes have opposite goals you usually wind up with the worst aspects of both classes. Further if you have a service class, except for Scout, you will be multi-classing anyway. (Generally in a more controlled environment.)
Three or more classes in a T20 character virtually never works out. And certainly never works in the way the player envisioned the character before starting Prior History.
BTL,
I am unsure what you mean by timing. Can you give me an example?
As for the number of classes I do agree that 3 or more can become unwieldy unless skillfully done. Getting six levels spread out over 4 classes with the goal of having the broadest range of skills and feats would be a recipe for disaster. But let’s not dismiss the whole idea just because sometime it can be poorly done.
The last time I did chargen 4 of six players multi-classed I thought the results worked out rather well. I would encourage players to try multi-classing, but with the caveat that they have a clearly defined vision of what they want their character to be and have a justification for how they will achieve it.
I try not to think in terms of class goals. An academic may have a goal of doing pure research. An Army officer may have the goal of proving himself in battle. But there is no reason that a character cannot join the Army, and take levels in both Academic and Army. He can get a better BAB and some weapon feats he would not normally have access to. The academic will give him a higher # of skill points. A well rounded character can be made with proper selection of skills. Justification could be a military historian, part of Army R&D, or Army intelligence. Problems do not come from the multi-classing per se, but from a poor or ill-executed concept.
During play characters may have no choice but to multiclass especially if they took a service class, and this too must be carried out with some thought and planning. IMTU universe I require players to declare what class they are working on and make them work towards getting it. If a 6th Lvl Mercenary wants to take a level in Academic he better have picked up a book at some point.
I am unsure what you mean by timing. Can you give me an example?
As for the number of classes I do agree that 3 or more can become unwieldy unless skillfully done. Getting six levels spread out over 4 classes with the goal of having the broadest range of skills and feats would be a recipe for disaster. But let’s not dismiss the whole idea just because sometime it can be poorly done.
The last time I did chargen 4 of six players multi-classed I thought the results worked out rather well. I would encourage players to try multi-classing, but with the caveat that they have a clearly defined vision of what they want their character to be and have a justification for how they will achieve it.
I try not to think in terms of class goals. An academic may have a goal of doing pure research. An Army officer may have the goal of proving himself in battle. But there is no reason that a character cannot join the Army, and take levels in both Academic and Army. He can get a better BAB and some weapon feats he would not normally have access to. The academic will give him a higher # of skill points. A well rounded character can be made with proper selection of skills. Justification could be a military historian, part of Army R&D, or Army intelligence. Problems do not come from the multi-classing per se, but from a poor or ill-executed concept.
During play characters may have no choice but to multiclass especially if they took a service class, and this too must be carried out with some thought and planning. IMTU universe I require players to declare what class they are working on and make them work towards getting it. If a 6th Lvl Mercenary wants to take a level in Academic he better have picked up a book at some point.
I don't think it's accurate to say that multiclassing doesn't work because your BAB or other stats don't rise like you would if you specialised. You have to define what you mean by saying it 'doesn't work', and saying that your BAB isn't high doesn't lead to a convincing argument.
It's the age old debate of specialising versus diversifying. You either put all your eggs in one or two baskets and use them all the time in very limited situations or you spread them out and use them less of them in a variety of different situations. There's no easy answer to this.
It's the age old debate of specialising versus diversifying. You either put all your eggs in one or two baskets and use them all the time in very limited situations or you spread them out and use them less of them in a variety of different situations. There's no easy answer to this.
Excuse me but I don't agree about the getting the extra skills and feats only once. Specific mention is made in a large number of the classes that you don't get the extra feats/skills while multi-classing (Traveller, Noble, Academic, Professional), there are a number, Belter, Marine, Navy, Army which do not make this distinction and AFAIK, nothing changed this.
As for mutli-classing in Prior History, AFAIK, you must take a term as a class to gain access to that class's skills, etc.. You cannot serve in the Army and take rogue class levels for the exp gained in this manner.
My favorite character took a level as academic, went to college (ROTC) graduated early, served 2 full terms in the Navy, 2 more terms as a academic and returned to the Navy for another term, then blew the roll and got a mandatory 8th term, at least according to my GM.
I explained it as he started out working as a day laborer for academic credit on a archeological dig and proved to have merit. He won a 2 year scholarship to college due to his work and papers and to make a bit more money, joined NROTC. He spent the next 8 years working on various archeological digs attempting to (A) recover artifacts from E2 and/or Ancient sites under Navy aegis. Fulfilling his naval service, he continued to work/study as an Ancient Archeologist for 8 more years before getting recalled to the Navy for some covert archeological digs. He was just getting ready to retire when he came up with some intereting information about an E2 naval base and was dragooned to lead the archeological dig on that base due to his personal knowledge and expertise.
Now as far as assigning exp went, a level gained entirely during a term went to that type of level but if the exp to make the next level was made of of either class, I chose the class level as I saw fit.
Personally there is nothing wrong with the mutli-class character as long as you have an idea of what you wanted. I wanted an experienced leader with a specialization in archeology and ancient technologies/artifacts and developed my character in this manner. In fact this professional development is usually the chosen methodology of most Naval officers.
As for mutli-classing in Prior History, AFAIK, you must take a term as a class to gain access to that class's skills, etc.. You cannot serve in the Army and take rogue class levels for the exp gained in this manner.
My favorite character took a level as academic, went to college (ROTC) graduated early, served 2 full terms in the Navy, 2 more terms as a academic and returned to the Navy for another term, then blew the roll and got a mandatory 8th term, at least according to my GM.
I explained it as he started out working as a day laborer for academic credit on a archeological dig and proved to have merit. He won a 2 year scholarship to college due to his work and papers and to make a bit more money, joined NROTC. He spent the next 8 years working on various archeological digs attempting to (A) recover artifacts from E2 and/or Ancient sites under Navy aegis. Fulfilling his naval service, he continued to work/study as an Ancient Archeologist for 8 more years before getting recalled to the Navy for some covert archeological digs. He was just getting ready to retire when he came up with some intereting information about an E2 naval base and was dragooned to lead the archeological dig on that base due to his personal knowledge and expertise.
Now as far as assigning exp went, a level gained entirely during a term went to that type of level but if the exp to make the next level was made of of either class, I chose the class level as I saw fit.
Personally there is nothing wrong with the mutli-class character as long as you have an idea of what you wanted. I wanted an experienced leader with a specialization in archeology and ancient technologies/artifacts and developed my character in this manner. In fact this professional development is usually the chosen methodology of most Naval officers.
Um. Actually that is nearly the reverse of what it says in the book.
Try page 34 and 120.
Serving an Army term and taking Rogue levels is the traditional malingering shifty corporal, selling "stuff" on the side. Absolute gold for PC material. Just as a Navy term and Merchant levels make a nice quartermaster corp junior officer.
To run through how I believe it works:
You make a 1st level character from any class.
You choose what you wish to do first:
- Go to Uni
- Do a term as your class level
- Attempt to enlist in any service (you need to pass the initial class requirements)
Once experience and outcomes of that term are complete, raise the characters level.
All classes that you fulfill the multiclass requirements for are available.
Choose your next term, where the same options are available, some restrictions (such as mandatory re-enlistment) may limit your choices.
It is a remarkably open process, so open that it generally needs to be steered somewhat by the GM.
One thing I just noticed, and had never occurred to me, you can join a service (such as the navy) and NOT gain any service levels. The restriction is one way (you must have served to take the levels, you can serve but not take any levels).
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
As a Referee, I require one level in three, minimum, to be taken in the associated class to what you are serving in. I believe Hunter said something on here somewhere about addressing that.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I don't believe I saw it in the Errata but Hunter mentioned it somewhere on here. It does not appear in the intention of the rules. It is covered in the D20 CORE rulebook that you don't get the 4 x skills.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
The character doesn't work as anticipated, especially by long term Traveller (non-T20) players. The BAB was an example. In T20 to do things you need much higher numbers than in previous versions of Traveller. Most traveller Characters can pick a core of 3-5 skills to specialize in and a handful of other skills to have in the neighborhood of a 5 in. (Which is roughly equivalent to a CT/MT skill level of 1.) There are plenty of skills that you actually don't need any skill ranks in to use. So characters that specialize are actually less restricted than you might imagine. Because of the diversity of skills available to each class and if you want it you can always take a cross class skill, multi-classing is only of limited benefit. Since timing is paramount for multi-classing in Prior history, but very difficult to get right, and Multi-classing provides less benefit than it appears to provide, I see little point in doing it. While 2 might make sense under certain circumstances, if and only if the two classes are related, 3 or more is a waste of time and never provides a character than can do much more than sit back and let the rest of the party handle everything.
The most successful characters I have seen were Scout/Ace Pilot, (Though the Ace Pilot was after mustering out, not part of prior history.) Marine/Mercenary, (A couple of levels of Merc were taken during Prior History.) and Scout. None of the Three+ class characters ever amounted to much in terms of helping the situation. (Even those that took classes where the same skills could be applied so they had a couple of specialized skills max.) Part of that was player personality, but part of it was definitely the issues of timing multi-classing. Now if everyone in the party does the same thing and has no real skill ranks or BAB then they would all be in the same situation and it might not appear so useless. (But crashing upon landing on a nice clear day with no turbulence or combat damage is still a bad thing.
There is a distinction to be made between joining a service (Class) and multiclassing into that class.
Now I don't have my rulebook handy, but there is a section that says when a character joins a service there the first two years are taken up by basic training.
The way I handle this, is that if a character enlists in class (Serves a 4 year term) he will benefit from all the starting feats and skill for that class but he must take at least 1 level in that class.
For example:
Spaceman Spiff Joins the Army fresh out of high school. He gets all Army starting feats and skills. 1st level must be in Army Class. He stays in the army for 5 terms, going up 6 more levels, all the time running a black market out of the motor pool. He takes those addition levels in Rogue. He does benefit from Rouge feats and Skills. He musters out (5 rolls on the army tables) and starts play as a Lvl 1 Army Lvl 5 Rouge. 6th lvl character overall.
His Brother Spaceman Stan, Joins the Marines. He gets Marine starting feats and skills, First level must be taken as Marine. He stays a total of two terms and goes up 3 more levels. He takes 1 in Marine and 2 in Merchant. He does not benefit from merchant starting Feats and Skills. Stan fails to reenlist in the Marines and joins the Scouts. He serves 4 more terms and goes up 5 levels. Because he is actively serving in the Scouts he gets scout starting feats and skills, but must take 1 level in Scout. The other 4 can be Scout or Merchant (or another multiclass) but he may not take any more levels in Marine because he is not active in that service. Stan takes the levels 4 in merchant. At mustering out time Stan is a Lvl 2 marine, Lvl 1 Scout and Lvl 6 Merchant. A 9th lvl character overall (Maybe a bit high but Stan was a good roller.) As for the mustering out table Stan get 2 rolls on Marine and 4 on the scout tables, but none on the Merchant because he was never active in the merchant service.
R
PS I hope I haven't muddied things up.
***Edit***
PPS A character can only Benifit from the 4x skill points once.
Now I don't have my rulebook handy, but there is a section that says when a character joins a service there the first two years are taken up by basic training.
The way I handle this, is that if a character enlists in class (Serves a 4 year term) he will benefit from all the starting feats and skill for that class but he must take at least 1 level in that class.
For example:
Spaceman Spiff Joins the Army fresh out of high school. He gets all Army starting feats and skills. 1st level must be in Army Class. He stays in the army for 5 terms, going up 6 more levels, all the time running a black market out of the motor pool. He takes those addition levels in Rogue. He does benefit from Rouge feats and Skills. He musters out (5 rolls on the army tables) and starts play as a Lvl 1 Army Lvl 5 Rouge. 6th lvl character overall.
His Brother Spaceman Stan, Joins the Marines. He gets Marine starting feats and skills, First level must be taken as Marine. He stays a total of two terms and goes up 3 more levels. He takes 1 in Marine and 2 in Merchant. He does not benefit from merchant starting Feats and Skills. Stan fails to reenlist in the Marines and joins the Scouts. He serves 4 more terms and goes up 5 levels. Because he is actively serving in the Scouts he gets scout starting feats and skills, but must take 1 level in Scout. The other 4 can be Scout or Merchant (or another multiclass) but he may not take any more levels in Marine because he is not active in that service. Stan takes the levels 4 in merchant. At mustering out time Stan is a Lvl 2 marine, Lvl 1 Scout and Lvl 6 Merchant. A 9th lvl character overall (Maybe a bit high but Stan was a good roller.) As for the mustering out table Stan get 2 rolls on Marine and 4 on the scout tables, but none on the Merchant because he was never active in the merchant service.
R
PS I hope I haven't muddied things up.
***Edit***
PPS A character can only Benifit from the 4x skill points once.
As a Referee, I require one level in three, minimum, to be taken in the associated class to what you are serving in. I believe Hunter said something on here somewhere about addressing that.
</font>[/QUOTE]I always forced all my players to take at least one level for basic training. Thought it was in the book, guess its a house rule.
princelian
SOC-12
BetterThanLife wrote:
However, the effect you're talking about comes from the early +0 in any class on the BAB progression. I recommend you do what I do, which is to add up all the fractional BAB's and then round off at the end.
Example:
Academic-7/Law Enforcer-3/Traveller-3. Academic has a +1/4 progression, Law Enforcer has +3/4, and Traveller has +1/2.
Academic is +7/4; Law Enforcer is +9/4; Traveller is +6/4 (3/2 x 2). This is a total of +22/4, which gives you a +5 BAB. By the book, this would give you +1 for Academic, +2 for Law Enforcer, and +1 for Traveller, for +4.
Let's look at your level 10 character there. Academics have a BAB of +1/4 levels, so an 8th level Academic has a BAB of +2. Other classes with a +1/4 BAB progression are Diplomat, Engineer, Entertainer, Medic, Merchant, and Professional. The others all have at least a +1/2 BAB, so if this character has only 2 levels in ANY of the others, he'll have a +3 BAB. Therefore, the only possible character combination that, at 10th level, has a +2 BAB must be Academic/other_non_combatant_class.
However, the effect you're talking about comes from the early +0 in any class on the BAB progression. I recommend you do what I do, which is to add up all the fractional BAB's and then round off at the end.
Example:
Academic-7/Law Enforcer-3/Traveller-3. Academic has a +1/4 progression, Law Enforcer has +3/4, and Traveller has +1/2.
Academic is +7/4; Law Enforcer is +9/4; Traveller is +6/4 (3/2 x 2). This is a total of +22/4, which gives you a +5 BAB. By the book, this would give you +1 for Academic, +2 for Law Enforcer, and +1 for Traveller, for +4.
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