Needed

[E.D.Quibell]

It can be both, I just do not want to see people with Whipsnade's attitudes attempting to bully Mongoose or anyone else into doing it their way, or being abusive to people who don't want to do it their way.

I think you'll find that if you asked Bill would probably agree with you, that he would want good new material that doesn't contradict what has gone before. Unfortunatly Mongoose hasn't done this.

I do not think there is an awful lot known about Gvurrdon in Traveller canon anyway. I think the way forward would be to take a look at what existing canon there is that is published by major publishers (I wouldn't bother with the small ones, personally I couldn't care less about something some obscure company said 25 years ago that hasn't been seen since in a product that is long out of print), and then resolve any contradictions in whatever way Mongoose feels works. I would imagine that the best sources are Classic Traveller's Vargr alien race module, Megatraveller's Vilani and Vargr book, and GURPS Traveller's relevant Alien Race book.

Do you know? That would be a good start. Why don't you suggest this to Mongoose?

But if Mongoose thinks of a better way to do something or a more interesting scenario for a given world, then by all means I think they should be encouraged to go ahead and use their own ideas. I am not interested in a product that simply parrots everything that came before it, I want something that adds to the OTU.

There are enough worlds in the OTU that they can do this without parroting and without trassing what has gone before.

Mongoose are defining their own canon now, and while it should be based on what has gone before I do not believe (as some do) that it should be rigidly chained to what has gone before.

I agree rigidly chained is bad, respectfull would be good, stomping all over is bad, in my opinion.

There is no need for a 'schism' here, but I suspect that people like Whipsnade have no interest in adapting their ideals of what they think Traveller should be to what it actually is (and certainly I get that impression from everything I've read that he has said about Mongoose Traveller).

Are now you see this is it. Hammer, nail, head. What is Traveller?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Zparkz]

Everything is in PDF and it's not like the authors can't read.

It is in the PDFs, but where? Roleplaying games books aren't like encyclopedias. Things aren't cross referenced or indexed. Where was that information about Kforuzeng? Jtas? FFW board game? Spinward Marches Campaign? Other? And if you find it, how consistent is it?

 

[scrabble]

Traveller haven't been in real circulation since T4.

Hello? GURPS Traveller?

 

[scrabble]

Do you know? That would be a good start. Why don't you suggest this to Mongoose?

I have no reason to believe that they are not doing that already.

What is Traveller?

Traveller is what the publishers say it is.

If people do not like that, then they can play something else, or stick to playing their much-revered earlier versions that they think were "right".

 

[Zparkz]

Are now you see this is it. Hammer, nail, head. What is Traveller?

A behemoth?

 

[Zparkz]

Hello? GURPS Traveller?

Yeah, I know. But even as I own a few of the books, I don't regard it as a proper edition as it rewrote background by doing a Dallas stunt and it wasn't much compatible with any other edition.

Much like T20, however I am not sure about the T20 background as I never has seen any of its books.

 

[FreeTrav]

One of the main challenges with Traveller is the wast amount of canon material. Much which has not been in print since the first print run.

Is it really a problem? I sorta get the impression that there's far more material out in "official setting" for this week's incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons than there is for Traveller. OTOH, does anyone other than WotC/Hasbro actually put out stuff for it?

GDW did the right thing when it comes to TNE, scrap what is and start a new background with the old as foundation. Just that it doesn't count much any more.

Whether it was the right thing to do is arguable; I happen to agree that it was probably time to open up a new era with more freedom to develop new ideas. My biggest complaint about TNE was - and is - that the method chosen within the game context just totally shatters my WSoD. Secondary complaints are that the destruction was too complete, and the "resurrection" too fast. Quite frankly, GDW could IMO have done better by simply following the Rebellion to its conclusion, and then rebuild from there - you'd have basically all of the elements that TNE offered, minus the wildly unbelievable VIRUS, with, in all likelihood, less objection from people like me, AND from people who felt that the Classic Imperium was the One True Setting. (No, I will not name names/handles.)

Traveller haven't been in real circulation since T4. So it should not matter much what Mongoose does with the setting. However, they should keep vital setting mechanics and information alive. Was human controlled imperium, alien races and jump drive, the frontier wars, interstellar wars and of course the jump drive with x parsec a week. Pretty much everything else may change if needed or if the information is too hard to track down.

When I developed Gvurrdon back in the early 90s I had a hard time track down relevant information that I needed. Clay Bush was kind enough to point out the most important sources. After thrawling them I thought, with heck with it, I must make some stuff up anyway, so just get started. No-one has complained about any canon breaking stuff yet.

If it's done with sufficient quality, and doesn't radically break canon and the "flavor", for lack of a better word, of the universe it purports to be set in, people probably won't NOTICE the canon-breakage, or, if they do, they'll just choose which to believe and ignore the other(s). Maybe it's a data transcription error, maybe it's biased viewpoint, maybe it's just that it was the early days of the industry and some sloppiness was EXPECTED. Doesn't matter.

The problem with TNE, plain and simple, was that it was RUBBING EVERYONE'S NOSE in the stinking fact that they were basically tossing all of Marc's and Loren's work, and basically attaching the well-respected Traveller name to A DIFFERENT GAME. Different system, different setting, just pasted the old serial numbers on to try to ride the coat-tails of "real" Traveller. That was tried with Traveller: 2300 (which eventually became 2300AD), and it went over like a lead balloon. It succeeded a little better with TNE, but TO THIS DAY, a significant sector of the Traveller community grumbles about it.

 

[scrabble]

Yeah, I know. But even as I own a few of the books, I don't regard it as a proper edition as it rewrote background by doing a Dallas stunt and it wasn't much compatible with any other edition.

Rules and some tech aspects were different, yes, but the history (up to when the Assassination didn't happen) was the same as previous editions.

Much like T20, however I am not sure about the T20 background as I never has seen any of its books.

Same applies - rules and some tech is different, but the history remains the same as previous editions.

 

[scrabble]

The problem with TNE, plain and simple, was that it was RUBBING EVERYONE'S NOSE in the stinking fact that they were basically tossing all of Marc's and Loren's work, and basically attaching the well-respected Traveller name to A DIFFERENT GAME. Different system, different setting, just pasted the old serial numbers on to try to ride the coat-tails of "real" Traveller. That was tried with Traveller: 2300 (which eventually became 2300AD), and it went over like a lead balloon. It succeeded a little better with TNE, but TO THIS DAY, a significant sector of the Traveller community grumbles about it.

Then some people really need to get over both TNE and Traveller:2300. If people are still grumbling about Traveller:2300 then they must be wilfully ignorant of the story behind it - that it was a misguided marketing attempt to get Traveller fans to buy it, and very clearly was not supposed to be related to the OTU at all. And since GDW fixed that later by calling it 2300AD, it should no longer be an issue for those people unless they particularly enjoy holding baseless grudges.

The problem is that the various editions of Traveller arguably are not designed to mesh into one whole. There are too many tech differences between them, for one thing, as design sequences were redesigned and new ideas introduced. The editions are very clearly supposed to be used in isolation. HEPLAR for example in TNE was presented as always being the technology used for ship M-drives. That works for TNE, but not for CT, and no amount of hacking will make it work for CT. Same goes for the technologies in GT. The rules for TNE work for TNE only. The rules for Megatraveller work for MT only. The rules or Mongoose Traveller work for Mongoose Traveller. And so on.

None of that matters in terms of the setting though, because the histories of the Imperium etc are largely the same in the various editions. THAT is what is important, not rule details.

 

[Jeffr0]

Whether it was the right thing to do is arguable; I happen to agree that it was probably time to open up a new era with more freedom to develop new ideas. My biggest complaint about TNE was - and is - that the method chosen within the game context just totally shatters my WSoD. Secondary complaints are that the destruction was too complete, and the "resurrection" too fast. Quite frankly, GDW could IMO have done better by simply following the Rebellion to its conclusion, and then rebuild from there - you'd have basically all of the elements that TNE offered, minus the wildly unbelievable VIRUS, with, in all likelihood, less objection from people like me, AND from people who felt that the Classic Imperium was the One True Setting. (No, I will not name names/handles.)

David Nilsen:

"When I arrived at GDW there was a plan in hand to have all new Traveller stuff developed out-of-house, and the story arc was as you describe: Hard Times to Harder Times, to Arthritis Time, to Paralysis Times, to Rigor Mortis Times, and then somehow climb back out. The whole point was that since people already seemed intensely dissatisfied with what we had, the answer was not to wind it down slower, but to fast forward to the bottom-out point, where everything after that was moving up. Either that, or pretend none of it happened."

and

"And also part of this calculus is that if it all wound down and then started back up again,
you'd be back to the same problem in the Rebellion: too many separate campaign cores that would have to be detailed for players. I count nine separate factional "safes" (to use the Hard Times term): Norris/Spinward Marches, Strephon/Gushemege, Dumbassinor/Ilelish, Vilani/Vland, Lucan/Core, Craig/Daibei, "I Am Not a Lizard"/Antares, Margaret/Delphi, and Solomani/Terra. That would have required nine different sourcebooks, and a few years to get to them all, and the whole time players would have been begging for their own favorite to be published. That was not going to be possible. So we elected to have one "safe," the Regency, stand in for all of the ex-Imperium. We would not have been able to get to everything otherwise, and that would not have been a very supportive decision to the players, and we genuinely gave a damn about that."

...

IMO, Virus is no more unbelievable than Jumpspace or Psionics or CT M-Drives, etc.

My personal favorite thing about TNE is that the setting can be understood down to the level of how many ships exist in each system, etc. I own a hundred Traveller books and I still don't really know what the 3rd Imperium is really like-- so many key questions about the setting are famous flame war topics. TNE just sort of works out of the box, and I don't have to deal with all of the ^&$^#*. The line also had probably the best Traveller setting book of all time: Path of Tears. Finally... I give myself the freedom to put whatever I want into the wilds and just roll with it. I never can quite develop satisfactory answers to how the various worlds of the Imperium (TM) interact and so forth.

Less objection from "people like you" wasn't really an option. GDW had limited resources, had painted themselves into a corner with MT, and had already ticked off the old guard with the death of Strephon, etc. [And I just can't see how people could get worked up about that. How much story was embedded into the CT materials, really? It was more of a collection of wargames, a few adventures, and a framework for generating census data, All I know about Strephon is a library data entry and some gimmick about a Warrant.]

One more awesome thing about TNE: one system... one book. Everything you need in ONE book. The best single stop rule book and the best single stop setting book. I don't think is has been matched, yet.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It is in the PDFs, but where? Roleplaying games books aren't like encyclopedias. Things aren't cross referenced or indexed. Where was that information about Kforuzeng? Jtas? FFW board game? Spinward Marches Campaign? Other? And if you find it, how consistent is it?

Try Google Desktop, or even the Microsoft folder search function. Google make their living out of cross referencing or indexing. They do it pritty well too. Learning how to write a seach string is not an art.

It's not always consistant that's true.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I have no reason to believe that they are not doing that already.

I have to say that I don't believe they are.

Traveller is what the publishers say it is.

If people do not like that, then they can play something else, or stick to playing their much-revered earlier versions that they think were "right".

I have to say, that's not a bad answer. However there are 5 current publishers of Traveller; Far Future Enterprises, Steve Jackson Games, Mongoose Publishing, BITS, and QLI.

BITS only do suppliments, so we won't go there (although I have to say they consistantly put out high qulaity product (and I'll declare I'm a member even though I'd say I wasn't biased)).

They publish 6 distinct versions of the rules, but suposidly one OTU.

So; What is Traveller? is still a good question.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

A behemoth?

LOL funney

Many thanks,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Rules and some tech aspects were different, yes, but the history (up to when the Assassination didn't happen) was the same as previous editions.

Same applies - rules and some tech is different, but the history remains the same as previous editions.

So why should Mongoose mess with this, when they easilly don't have to?

Regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Sorry, but who the hell are you to say this?

An old faithful Traveller fan?

I really do not have time for self-elected Traveller Thought Policemen who guard The One True Way (which is their way, and nobody else's) and who think they have the right to tell publishers what they can or should or cannot or should not do. This sort of attitude has been destroying Traveller for years, and I would be glad to see the back of it. And I certainly would not want to see people with that attitude having any influence at all on what Mongoose or anybody else writes.

See, this is your opinion. Some of us is of the opinion that by failing to treat canon respectfully, a publisher can do a lot of harm to the setting.

I like what Mongoose has done with the OTU. I do not care one bit if anything is different from what came before

I see. And because you don't care, you consider it an incontrovertible fact that those of us who do care are being silly?

- previous editions have hardly been consistent with eachother either. At the end of the day it's really simple, if you do not like the Mongoose Traveller books, then just do not get them.

And if you don't like our opinions, just don't read them. Oh, I'm sorry, that's different, right?


Hans

 

[rancke]

It is in the PDFs, but where? Roleplaying games books aren't like encyclopedias. Things aren't cross referenced or indexed. Where was that information about Kforuzeng? Jtas? FFW board game? Spinward Marches Campaign? Other?

As of 1105? Primarily JTAS #21 and The Traveller Adventure.

And if you find it, how consistent is it?

JTAS21 and TTA are quite consistent. It was the MT notion of turning the Vargr into a faction of equal strength with every other Rebellion faction that introduced discrepancies. Suddenly corsairs were flying around in cruisers that were, individually, stronger than the entire Kforuzeng fleet in its prime.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

None of that matters in terms of the setting though, because the histories of the Imperium etc are largely the same in the various editions. THAT is what is important, not rule details.

Have I missed something? You said that it was ok for Mongoose to trash this or "write their own cannon" (paraphrase), and with the above you say that the setting is the important thing.

So should Mongoose write their own canon or should they respect what has gone before?

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm seriously interested in what you think is how far Mongoose can go in changing the OTU without it becomming an alterantive OTU (such as the SJGames one).

In fact thinking about it, it might be easier to just declaire the MGT OTU an alternative.

Many thanks for your thoughts and best regards,

Ewan

 

[scrabble]

They publish 6 distinct versions of the rules, but suposidly one OTU.

So; What is Traveller? is still a good question.

There isn't a single "Traveller". There are multiple different versions of it. "Traveller" is whatever applies to the edition being talked about in the discussion.

 

[Zparkz]

Try Google Desktop, or even the Microsoft folder search function. Google make their living out of cross referencing or indexing. They do it pritty well too. Learning how to write a seach string is not an art.

It's not always consistant that's true.

Best regards,

Ewan

When MT came out, and then TNE. This was not an option. Even having previous rulebooks as scanned PDFs wasn't viable back then as most scanned PDFs would take up huge chunks of peoples hard drives. Today this is a moot point.

However, this did set a precedence. Out of print material was next to impossible to get. It has taken me several years to collect my Traveller collection, and now I got most items given out by GDW, pretty much everything by DGP, a pretty large collection of Traveller material rom other publishers.

When I came into Traveller, I found it hard to grasp the setting as MT in a way required knowledge about CT and its material if you wanted to publish anything. In 86 that was more or less impossible as there was no ebay or other outlets to get out of print material.
Budding Traveller authors was more or less fumbling in the dark unless the publisher turned a blind eye to allow for some canon breaking stuff just to get some good stuff out the door.

But I am not advocating that Mongoose should do the same as GDW did to clean the slate so to say. Traveller needs some trimming. The background is too large, and it is the new blood that will bring the game further. Not us old farts that has been going since 77 or there about [88 for me =0) ]. We generally have the material we need to do our gaming, and the wits to fill the holes that exists in our material, unless alzheimer are visiting.

 

[scrabble]

An old faithful Traveller fan?

Being an "old faithful Traveller fan" gives no authority over publishers.

See, this is your opinion.

No, it is not. You are absolutely, demonstrably, and objectively wrong to think that you have the authority to tell any publisher what they can and cannot do. They have paid for a Traveller license, you have not. That means that they have the right to commercially publish Traveller material, and you do not. Everyone else can advise and make suggestions, but if anyone thinks that they can tell publishers what they can and cannot do and expect them to drop everything and do what they say then then they are completely mistaken.

Publishers have access to the same sources that everyone else does. Everyone else just needs to have faith that when the publishers submit their material to Marc Miller then he will judge it accordingly and will allow it to be published or will send it back for revisions if the changes within are too drastic. That should limit any changes, while keeping things within canonical boundaries.

Some of us is of the opinion that by failing to treat canon respectfully, a publisher can do a lot of harm to the setting.

Maybe, but that opinion still does not give you any authority to tell publishers what to do.

I see. And because you don't care, you consider it an incontrovertible fact that those of us who do care are being silly?

No, but I do think that some people need to get some perspective. This isn't Holocaust revisionism, it's just a damned roleplaying game. The way some people act though, anyone would think it was the former.

And if you don't like our opinions, just don't read them. Oh, I'm sorry, that's different, right?

It is different. You can opinionate all you like about it, but ultimately Mongoose will do whatever they feel is best (maybe based on that opinion, maybe not). But at the end of the day nobody else needs to care whether you or anyone else disapproves of what Mongoose is doing or the reasons why they are doing it. And complaining about it after the fact (or before you even know what they are doing) is just a waste of everybody's time.