That's why we used to use "On target" (from White Dwarf 28) when we played CT.
Of course, though, this slowed combat quite a while (again, no free luch)...
New Combat rules proposal
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Of course, though, this slowed combat quite a while (again, no free luch)...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
These days I like to keep things simple to speed up encounters.
Roll to hit, roll damage
armour either removes damage dice or reduces damage (or reduces damage per die...)
Roll to hit, roll damage
armour either removes damage dice or reduces damage (or reduces damage per die...)
But, at least in CT, they have a solid chance of knocking the character unconscious. Which is effectively a "kill" in most any combat situation. They may not be dead, but if you want them dead, it's trivial to do so should you prevail in the encounter.
I mean, I dunno even if I read the Bk 1 rules properly. But simply, as far as I can see, each D of damage is spread across the attributes (so 2D would be 1D of damage to up to two characteristics). But the "first blood", as I understand it, is entirely dumped on a single characteristic. 2D has a 58% chance of being at least 7 (average characteristic roll), 3D a 90% chance.
That is correct, the first round of combat applies damage to one attribute. It was one of the beefs that's been brought up on this forum in years past. I don't think any solution was ever offered.
In principle I prefer mike wightman's observation and solution, but I think there needs to be some easy intermediary step to the old classic combat that gives a negotiated settlement between realism and cinematic combat. And ideally, I think, it might be best to base that on real world data. Which, again in my opinion, means that basic combat isn't altered, but a new armor / penetration mechanic could be added to supplant the old "DM for wearing armor" mechanic. This truncates the .22 Derringer scoring damage on the fully armored battledressed TL15 Imperial marine, and lets the firer hit the marine but not necessarily damaging him, but possibly hitting and damaging someone who is not wearing armor at all, or real world Level 1 armor.
I'll also add that the reason I added the degree of granularity that I did was because one of the occasional but rare complaints was the limited amount of weapons compared to the real world, or inaccurate or loose portrayal or military and non-military grade weapons. So, this might allow things like a 357 Dirty Harry special and maybe Robocop's full auto body pistol both. One firing one big slug at a time, the other being a hand held submachine gun (machine pistol) to fire at Zhos, Vargr, strange alien monsters and whoever else.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Real world gun violence statistics show that the first blood rule is totally unrealistic. Where it does have its use is as a critical hit result.
Apply the first blood rule on a naturally rolled 12 or if the effect number is 6+
Apply the first blood rule on a naturally rolled 12 or if the effect number is 6+
Yeah, I've never liked it, and didn't use it after the first couple of sessions way back when. It's a dumb rule in my opinion.
That is an interesting hybrid I hadn't thought of before. Have you used this, and how does it work-out in practice?
Well that's because it really doesn't matter.
A Berretta 9mm is a Glock 9mm, is a Browning High Power. A Mini-14 is an AR-15 is a M16. A G3 is a M14 is a FNFAL. They're all the same within their categories when it comes to wounding potential. It's like "how come we only have 4 door sedans in the game and not Camrys, Accords, Malibus etc."
Umm...
"But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off."
And you call yourself a movie person.
Interesting enough, the USA says this is a story, as they were already replacing their Colt 45's with a newer model, militaries being hidebound and all, the 45 going back pre-ACW. Also interesting is that the 38 remained in use until the 80's, a friend bought one, decent enough, not terribly different than the CZ 85B I had, except maybe a little more accurate with a longer barrel, felt good in the hand though, smooth action also.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Isn't thirty eight calibre favoured by law enforcement?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
.38 Special is a revolver round for police work.
I don't know, diameter wise, it is similar to 9mm.
Per topic, the report favors the assessment of there being just a few meaningful calibers. Myself, I am simpler the better, whatever gets combat over with the quickest is good. Ablative armor often ignores the conservation of momentum, armor usually resists penetration or does not. I have played with MgT1e* since 2009, what we found was that the AV's were about a 1/4 to a 1/3rd too high, and should be reduced a bit. Though I am actually even fine with D&D's DC's, whatever gets it done.
Statistically speaking, figuring a number, it is good to find a correcting factor, such as auto dynamometers use a Kawaski Z1 as a sort of baseline to judge from. Numbers are weird, when I was designing war games, I had to discuss the fact that mixing ww2 with cold war equipment in the equipment file, meant that a FT 17, should be a value of 1, or less than an infantry unit, because otherwise vehicles such as an M1's values are sky high, which sort of threw the game engine off. Similar to how firearms operate, it's not the hits that are important, except that 8+ is a very high probability, and reality is more closer to 11 or 12+.
Well that's because it really doesn't matter.
A Berretta 9mm is a Glock 9mm, is a Browning High Power. A Mini-14 is an AR-15 is a M16. A G3 is a M14 is a FNFAL. They're all the same within their categories when it comes to wounding potential. It's like "how come we only have 4 door sedans in the game and not Camrys, Accords, Malibus etc."
Umm...
"But being this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and would blow your head clean off."
And you call yourself a movie person.
It was actually a "friend" of mine who was a big Clint / Harry Callihan fan who kept saying "357". Oh well. Just another reason not to like him
Personally my adopted dad owned a couple of Colt Dragoons
Which the mother unit gave to a friend of the family. Man they were loud. But yeah, back on topic, that's why the LBBs refer to Body Pistols as Body Pistols and cite some examples .... Walther PPK? As opposed to defining calibers. But when I used to run adventures I'd get complaints about how a round from an M16 ought to be more powerful than a round from a ... I don't know ... Daisy 22 or something. I don't know much about guns, and I didn't then either, so I really didn't know how to respond. But on the surface it does seem like there could be a little more leeway, but maybe I'm wrong on that.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I suspect it comes down to the effect you want to achieve; the opinion that you needed forty calibre to deal with bears was expressed rather vehemently.
Nine millimetres is about deterrence, which body armour neutralizes.
In theory, we should have an advanced (semi)automatic pistol as a counterpart to the advanced combat rifle, that is armour piercing, though once past that, has the same default damage, basically three dice; probably increased range.
Next step is the gauss pistol, which shoots a smaller slug.
Nine millimetres is about deterrence, which body armour neutralizes.
In theory, we should have an advanced (semi)automatic pistol as a counterpart to the advanced combat rifle, that is armour piercing, though once past that, has the same default damage, basically three dice; probably increased range.
Next step is the gauss pistol, which shoots a smaller slug.
Yea, well that can be confusing. Consider:
.38 caliber is effectively 9mm.
Modern .38 revolvers can (mostly) fire .38 Special and .38 +P (a modern .38 with higher pressure). The .357 Magnum is the SAME SIZE as the .38 Special (They're actually both .357 in in diameter). A .357 Magnum revolver can fire .38 Special as well. The biggest difference is the size. .357 Magnum cartridge is longer. From a power POV (i.e. ft/lbs of energy), the .357 is roughly twice as powerful as the .38.
The difference in the revolvers is also not just the length of the cartridge, but the build of the revolver. A .38 revolver simply is not designed for the pressures and power of a .357.
To add more confusion, the typical "full power" Battle Rifle ALSO uses a .30 caliber bullet, but it's much bigger, and travels much faster.
A .357 clocks in over 500 ft/lbs of energy. A .30-06 (the cartridge used by US forces in WWII), rings in at over 2,800.
Similarly the potential confusion between a .22 Long Rifle (most common .22 caliber) and an M16. The M16 uses a 5.56, which is essentially, .223. But it's not the .003 increase in diameter than makes it stand out.
A common .22 Long Rifle bullet is 40 grains in weight, a M16 is 55 grains, 37% heavier. But the M16 is a high velocity cartridge. The bullets are quite different. .22 Log Rifle is around 130 ft/lbs of energy. The M16 is over 1700. These are night and day different.
Remember, momentum is 1/2 mass * velocity ^2.
So, it's not just the bullet, it's how fast the bullet is going.
All that said, .22 Long Rifle is still dangerous. You don't want to be on the receiving end of one.
Appreciate, "gun people" will quibble about...everything.
Yeah, I would get complaints about Traveller weapons verse whatever is in the real world. My only counter other than "them's the rules" was "Well, do you have a real world example of a LASER rifle? No? (subtext; then shut up and roll the dice) Then let's keep playing."
I know next to nothing about grains, charge, bullet sizes or diameters, though I've seen a few YT vids since lockdown covering the topic.
I don't know. I'm a babe in the woods here. Maybe the old rules could have something about different propellent charges or something. I'm not sure. As fun as Snapshot and regular LBB2 combat was, I had some players who wanted that 44 magnum gun. Can the game get that detailed to carve one out on the combat matrix? Maybe, but how's that done? Is it a D&D equivalent of a plus 2 sword? I don't know.
I do like mike wightman's suggestion of taking away a die or some damage .. maybe both. Getting rid of the first blood rule gets my vote.
How about this;
Roll to hit
Roll to see if armor works
Determine how many rounds hit the armor, and how many hit other body parts
Apply damage.
I know next to nothing about grains, charge, bullet sizes or diameters, though I've seen a few YT vids since lockdown covering the topic.
I don't know. I'm a babe in the woods here. Maybe the old rules could have something about different propellent charges or something. I'm not sure. As fun as Snapshot and regular LBB2 combat was, I had some players who wanted that 44 magnum gun. Can the game get that detailed to carve one out on the combat matrix? Maybe, but how's that done? Is it a D&D equivalent of a plus 2 sword? I don't know.
I do like mike wightman's suggestion of taking away a die or some damage .. maybe both. Getting rid of the first blood rule gets my vote.
How about this;
Roll to hit
Roll to see if armor works
Determine how many rounds hit the armor, and how many hit other body parts
Apply damage.
I guess the other reason I posted this thread was not only the armor thing, but some systems like Champions, lent themselves to weapons' creation, but you really couldn't do that for Traveller. You had to improvise. Most stuff is, like you all say, is 3D damage because of the basic game engine. One wonders how you might distinguish a Star Wars' Imperial stormtrooper "blaster" from an M14.
And the armor was pretty restrictive too, so I always thought there was room for more stuff in general.
And the armor was pretty restrictive too, so I always thought there was room for more stuff in general.
Back in the day we had stormtrooper blaster = laser carbine; the difference was higher TL and cost, with no backpack required. 20 shots per “clip.”
HanleyTucks
SOC-11
Yes. It's not like you find old Vietnam vets going, "Well, we had the M-16, but if we'd had the M-16A2... and you know, the M-4? All the way to Hanoi, man!"
Firearms are like people: "I am unique and special, just like everyone else."
In Conflict I made it 10+. This on the basis that police shootings, they score about 1 in 6 hits against armed guys, and 1 in 3 against unarmed guys - and that's almost all within 6 metres. Well, 10+ is 6/36 of the possibilities, or 1 in 6.
Even cops mostly miss [pdf link, lengthy, below is from pp14-15].
Against a suspect firing back, 18% of 7.6 rounds struck, or 1.37 rounds on average. Against suspect not firing back, 30% of 3.5 rounds struck, or 1.05 rounds on average. So essentially they're firing until they get one hit, maybe two. The suspect at this point either falls over or decides they've had enough and would rather be eating hospital food right now. So in rules I put it as,
- 10+ is 6/36 = 1/6 = 16.67%, or 17% rounded. The base circumstance is the unskilled character firing at someone within 6m who is firing back at them. The US stats had this as 18%, pretty close.
- Not being under fire from the target gives DM+1, which would make it 10/36 or 28%, vs the 30% of the US stats. Close enough for a game. Okay, now the modifiers.
- Having had training with the weapon gives +1, which people can get in a four year term. This would take it to 10/36 or 28% when under fire, or 15/36 or 42% when not under fire. This is competent infantryman, or in the police Authorised Firearms Officer - it's not just time on the range, it's room-clearing drills and all that.
- Full-on expertise with several weapons will bring it to +3, but that'll take at least two terms or eight years. This is your AFO instructor, or the more competent military SF guys.
- Then 6-12m is DM-1, 12-25m is DM-2 and so on.
- And of course other modifiers like a spotter assisting, poor visibility, firing one-handed and so on.
Now as to wounding mechanics and how lethal the game is, you set this as you wish. I only note that to avoid players being annoyed, it should always be quicker to create a character than to kill them. If I rolled up a CT character in 15 minutes and they die in the first combat, that's a pity but oh well I'll just roll up another one. But if it took an entire 3 hour session by itself and looking through multiple books then I'm frustrated.
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