New Combat rules proposal
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Heh. I'm not what you would call a Ghostbuster's fan, but it was kind of an okay film.
Back in the mid 80s (1985?) NOVA did a special on ABM and Reagan's Star Wars' missile defense shield. One of the weapons under development was the Particle Accelerator Cannon, which could crush a saturn five fuel section at 100 yards. The problem with the technology was that it partially relied on propagation between particles from the weapon and the target. As such it had a tendency to whip wildly off target.
I think Babylon-5 "borrowed" or paid homage to the idea with their PPG sidearm that the crew wore. I do believe it was a technology developed after this game's first publication.
Back in the mid 80s (1985?) NOVA did a special on ABM and Reagan's Star Wars' missile defense shield. One of the weapons under development was the Particle Accelerator Cannon, which could crush a saturn five fuel section at 100 yards. The problem with the technology was that it partially relied on propagation between particles from the weapon and the target. As such it had a tendency to whip wildly off target.
I think Babylon-5 "borrowed" or paid homage to the idea with their PPG sidearm that the crew wore. I do believe it was a technology developed after this game's first publication.
"Particle Projection Cannon" (PPC), that's what the NOVA and Pentagon people called it. I think its Achilles heel was that it relied on atmospheric interaction, though could be fired in a vacuum but just not with the same effectiveness. Yeah, I'm trying to remember more about it ... it was developed because ... at the time it took a lot of patience, energy, and special engineering to get LASERs to "laze", and the engineers working on the project kept shaking their head about the technology.
I think the key issue ... geeze it's been a while, and yes this does relate to Traveller and this thread ... the key issue (as with most tech) was the material science at the time. Trying to get the amount of power over metals or other materials that could resist or withstand the temperatures a LASER required or produced. It took a long time for it to get going. A PPC didn't need any kind of warm up period, from what I recall ... and, I think, could be fired almost at a moment's notice once the weapon was up and energized.
But again it, ideally, relied on propagating or translating energy from one particle to another, or rather it did that and could hit a target in an ideal situation, but heavy winds or other atmospheric disturbance would throw off the weapon.
I imagine a personal version would be another 4D or 5D energy weapon for this game, but with some different DMs, and I'm not sure that reflective surfaces defended the technology. I don't recall whether it made any kind of sound, but it essentially shot a group of electrons to punch a target, and if you were hit then it was goodbye. Man it's been ages since I thought of that weapon tech. No one's run with it in any game that I recall ... save for Bab5 D20, maybe.
Yeah, I wonder what a personal sidearm, carbine, rifle or "repeating" weapon version of a Particle Projection Cannon would be in Traveller terms. I'm not up for drafting one up, but it is somewhat interesting.
I think the key issue ... geeze it's been a while, and yes this does relate to Traveller and this thread ... the key issue (as with most tech) was the material science at the time. Trying to get the amount of power over metals or other materials that could resist or withstand the temperatures a LASER required or produced. It took a long time for it to get going. A PPC didn't need any kind of warm up period, from what I recall ... and, I think, could be fired almost at a moment's notice once the weapon was up and energized.
But again it, ideally, relied on propagating or translating energy from one particle to another, or rather it did that and could hit a target in an ideal situation, but heavy winds or other atmospheric disturbance would throw off the weapon.
I imagine a personal version would be another 4D or 5D energy weapon for this game, but with some different DMs, and I'm not sure that reflective surfaces defended the technology. I don't recall whether it made any kind of sound, but it essentially shot a group of electrons to punch a target, and if you were hit then it was goodbye. Man it's been ages since I thought of that weapon tech. No one's run with it in any game that I recall ... save for Bab5 D20, maybe.
Yeah, I wonder what a personal sidearm, carbine, rifle or "repeating" weapon version of a Particle Projection Cannon would be in Traveller terms. I'm not up for drafting one up, but it is somewhat interesting.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Speaking of calibre, exactly how large is a four millimetre gauss slug?
Rifles can have discarding sabot, while pistols can't, which sort of implies that the length differs, assuming the diameter is the same.
Rifles can have discarding sabot, while pistols can't, which sort of implies that the length differs, assuming the diameter is the same.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Babylon 5 PPG sidearms were explicitly "plasma bolt pistols" that fired a bolt of plasma capable of doing NASTY things to flesh (so, gun-like shock and thermal energy burns) while not being powerful enough to damage walls and bulkheads (so all those missed shots fired didn't wreck the space station or ricochet around everywhere). The design of the tech was such that you could see the plasma projectile flying to target on screen and every single one was effectively a tracer round (so the audience at home could see where all the shooting was going). The main advantage of using plasma guns like that was the reduction/elimination of the overpenetration factor (where missed shots go through into things you really don't want them to be).
They were not particle accelerators, they were plasma bolt throwers scaled down to hand pistol size.
I recall something about 4mm in length, but nothing about a diameter.
IIRC CT put them at 4 grams, so that they are similar in weight to a .223 55gr NATO Ball round.
Oh really? Oh well. The guy running the Bab-5 D20 campaign some 10 years back kept saying "PPG" and it kept ringing a bell with me. I guess I confused the two. Even so there's no PPG in Traveller. Even personal disintegrators (phasers) are undefined. Whatever.
So far;
Determine initiative
Use 10+ on 2d6
determine Die Modifiers for range, environment, time of day, weather, cover, etc.
Roll 2d6
determine armor effectiveness
apply damage
rinse-repeat
They're 4mm. In diameter. Whenever you see a measurement regarding a firearm, it's pretty much always the diameter of the barrel.
Using lead as a base material for density, 11.3g/cm^3. * .001 = .0113 g/mm^3. 4g/.0113g/mm^3 = 354mm^3, so that's our volume.
A simple cylinder, v = pi * r^2 * h.
354 = pi * 2^2 * h
354 / 12.56 = h
28.18mm = h
A .223 bullet is about 45mm in length. A typical bullet is 55 grains, 3.56g. Gauss rifle is about 62 grains.
The Gauss Rifle is essentially "battle rifle" performance in an assault rifle package. Though, curiously, the loaded magazine weigh as much as the Assault Rifles magazines (per round), even though the round is 3x lighter. I reckon the magazines are more complicated, I think they actually contain power.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. While I think iron or steel jacket will encompass lead, a pure lead slug seems an unlikely option for gauss weapon systems.
2. Length would determine volume of the magazine, with or without an attached battery pack; without looking it up, may already be present for advanced combat rifle.
3. I suddenly recalled twenty two long rifle, and realized, it might be larger than a four millimetre slug; wonder what the equivalent would be at technological level twelve, since presumably you can adjust the voltage.
2. Length would determine volume of the magazine, with or without an attached battery pack; without looking it up, may already be present for advanced combat rifle.
3. I suddenly recalled twenty two long rifle, and realized, it might be larger than a four millimetre slug; wonder what the equivalent would be at technological level twelve, since presumably you can adjust the voltage.
One aspect of assault rifles is that you can carry twice the ammunition of a battle rifle.
With the Gauss rifle, it looks like there's only a 10% advantage over the Assault Rifle. Despite the cartridge weight (which isn't really described, but since there's no propellant, there should be some weight savings), the net round count benefit (due to magazine weight) to the soldier is marginal, but there is a power benefit. The combination of the increased round count per magazine, and higher performance, are characteristics that can swing in the advantage of the Gauss Rifle. Whether they're worth 5x the cost is a separate matter.
With the Gauss rifle, it looks like there's only a 10% advantage over the Assault Rifle. Despite the cartridge weight (which isn't really described, but since there's no propellant, there should be some weight savings), the net round count benefit (due to magazine weight) to the soldier is marginal, but there is a power benefit. The combination of the increased round count per magazine, and higher performance, are characteristics that can swing in the advantage of the Gauss Rifle. Whether they're worth 5x the cost is a separate matter.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
4mm wide.
Although, one of the "features" of magnetic weapons is that they can fire flechette type needle/dart rounds directly, rather than needing to use a discarding sabot to contain gas pressure in the barrel.
Pistol bullets use a 2:1 length to width ratio for the projectile.
Rifle bullets use a 3:1 length to width ratio for the projectile.
Discarding Sabot rounds use a 10:1 length to width ratio for the dart projectile thrown downrange.
So a 4mm pistol shaped bullet projectile would probably be something like a 4x8mm projectile.
A 4mm rifle shaped bullet would probably be something like a 4x12mm projectile.
A 4mm flechette/sabot shaped projectile would probably be something like a 4x40mm projectile.
Best to assume that a magnetic weapon is using some kind of armor piercing ferromagnetic (probably steel, because it's cheap and can be manufactured to usefully high tolerances) projectile to give the magnets in the linear accelerator barrel something to "grab onto" for propulsion. If you're dealing with a 4x40mm flechette/dart projectile you're looking at around 0.5cm3 per projectile, which using steel (sg 7.8) means 3.9 grams per projectile (if it has a circular cross section). If the projectiles are square shaped (4x4x40mm) then the volume would be 0.64cm3 per projectile, which using steel (sg 7.8) means 4.992 grams per projectile (with a square cross section).
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Funny thing about combat, that one percent of the time it happens, you really do want to outgun the opposition.
2. Another reason it got me curious, was all that talk about discarding sabots: in Traveller, rifles yes, pistols no; so it's a four millimetre diameter, and then you have something slimmer encased.
3. How much steel or iron, or other magnetic material will the jacket need for the gauss to be able to bite on it?
4. Forty millimetre length is one in ten.
5. KE penetrators for modern tanks are commonly 2–3 cm (0.787-1.18 in) in diameter, and can approach 80 cm (31.5 in) long; as more structurally efficient penetrator-sabot designs are developed, their length tends to increase, in order to defeat even greater line-of-sight armor depth. The concept of armor defeat using a long rod penetrator is a practical application of the phenomenon of hydro-dynamic penetration, (see hydrodynamics).[3]
6. I just heard that one reason you don't go for a smaller calibre bullet with increased pressure is that that may (actually probably will) increase wear and tear on the breech and barrel; luckily, gauss systems wouldn't have that issue.
7. In theory, that dart should just fly through a human body, so the increased damage must be due to it being able to dump most of that energy in the target.
2. Another reason it got me curious, was all that talk about discarding sabots: in Traveller, rifles yes, pistols no; so it's a four millimetre diameter, and then you have something slimmer encased.
3. How much steel or iron, or other magnetic material will the jacket need for the gauss to be able to bite on it?
4. Forty millimetre length is one in ten.
5. KE penetrators for modern tanks are commonly 2–3 cm (0.787-1.18 in) in diameter, and can approach 80 cm (31.5 in) long; as more structurally efficient penetrator-sabot designs are developed, their length tends to increase, in order to defeat even greater line-of-sight armor depth. The concept of armor defeat using a long rod penetrator is a practical application of the phenomenon of hydro-dynamic penetration, (see hydrodynamics).[3]
6. I just heard that one reason you don't go for a smaller calibre bullet with increased pressure is that that may (actually probably will) increase wear and tear on the breech and barrel; luckily, gauss systems wouldn't have that issue.
7. In theory, that dart should just fly through a human body, so the increased damage must be due to it being able to dump most of that energy in the target.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
So why doesn't the gauss needle just go through a body transferring very little energy? Is it designed to tumble then fragment when it enters a body?
4mm is fairly wide for a needle round, or so I think. I always pictured a Gauss round as these stainless steel pointy-at-both-end "darts" almost, minus any stabilization fins. Essentially a needle at both ends, maybe with a reinforced nose at the business end to punch through combat armor and battledress.
Years back, I think in the first five years after I joined the forum, there was a debate about both Gauss rifles and "mercenary" energy weapons verse military grade energy weapons, and how much charge each carried. It related to mercenary grade powered magazines for both Gauss weapons and LASER weapons. I think the concept back then was that mercenary grade stuff was "second hand" and didn't have the same charge capacity nor "freshness" and firepower than a powerpack specifically made for the Imperial military. The idea being that mercenary grade laser and Gauss weapons had or used weaker disposable energized magazines.
I bring that up because it may be a factor in Gauss penetration. Lower energy output means lower power means weaker penetration.
I'm just tossing out ideas.
In one of my fiction pieces an undercover Imperial Intelligence operative has a Glock like full auto machine pistol that uses sabot rounds for extra kick. I never did write up the weapon, and where regular sidearms have a kind of sabot quality (I do believe the lead is squeezed theough the barrel), the idea behind my weapon was that an extra cartridge with more propellent was pushed forward, and that it would go off either inside or outside the barrel to add more kick. It sounded great when I made it up, but thinking about it now it probably is just a gimick that wouldn't add any firepower in a real life situation.
*EDIT*
The idea being that the round would be almost Gauss or needle like, have greater armor penetration capability, and maybe mushroom for maximum wound effect. Like I say, it sounded cool when I came up with the idea, but it may just be impractical.
Years back, I think in the first five years after I joined the forum, there was a debate about both Gauss rifles and "mercenary" energy weapons verse military grade energy weapons, and how much charge each carried. It related to mercenary grade powered magazines for both Gauss weapons and LASER weapons. I think the concept back then was that mercenary grade stuff was "second hand" and didn't have the same charge capacity nor "freshness" and firepower than a powerpack specifically made for the Imperial military. The idea being that mercenary grade laser and Gauss weapons had or used weaker disposable energized magazines.
I bring that up because it may be a factor in Gauss penetration. Lower energy output means lower power means weaker penetration.
I'm just tossing out ideas.
In one of my fiction pieces an undercover Imperial Intelligence operative has a Glock like full auto machine pistol that uses sabot rounds for extra kick. I never did write up the weapon, and where regular sidearms have a kind of sabot quality (I do believe the lead is squeezed theough the barrel), the idea behind my weapon was that an extra cartridge with more propellent was pushed forward, and that it would go off either inside or outside the barrel to add more kick. It sounded great when I made it up, but thinking about it now it probably is just a gimick that wouldn't add any firepower in a real life situation.
*EDIT*
The idea being that the round would be almost Gauss or needle like, have greater armor penetration capability, and maybe mushroom for maximum wound effect. Like I say, it sounded cool when I came up with the idea, but it may just be impractical.
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Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
If you SERIOUSLY want to have a "build your own" system for gun design spanning an incredibly wide swath of tech levels ... there is a singular go to source that will supply ALL of your gunbuilding needs.
Guns! Guns! Guns! published by BTRC (the Blacksburg Tactical Research Center).
I have an original edition version published in the 90s on my shelf, and that book taught me more about guns (how they work, how they are made, etc.) than almost anything else in the fiction and non-fiction book markets (s'truth!). 3G was simply THAT USEFUL for thinking about how to model guns and their performance.
I even have an electrical engineering friend of mine who built sonars for the USN ask me ... "what's the cartridge equivalent to electrical capacitors capable of holding 1200 joules? I need to explain the potential hazards of a short circuit in the wrong location to some students I'm training."
So I went to a handy copy of Guns! Guns! Guns! on the shelf, consulted the tables in the back for standard ammo, found the nearest match and replied ... "a 12 gauge shotgun shell" ... to which my friend thanked me profusely and was able to tell their EE students that if they were careless around the board and it blew up in their faces, just ONE of the capacitors (and there was more than one on the board!) would explode with the explosive energy of a 12 gauge shotgun shell, at close range ... and there would be fragmentation effects involved in the rapid unscheduled disassembly involved (and a bad day would be had).
Apparently the warning focused the attention of those students EXTREMELY EFFECTIVELY on the potential hazards of carelessness around having that much potential energy stored in the capacitors on that specific circuit board design ... because I never heard of anyone shorting something out and having the capacitors blow up in their faces, ruining everyone's day, after the safety briefing had been given. For some reason, everyone who worked with that circuit board had the requisite amount of RESPECT for what they were handling (not quite sure why though, since other boards would sometimes explode parts from time to time, but that's the EE defense contracting world for you).
So consider this a major shout out on the value of Guns! Guns! Guns! by BTRC beyond the book's application to "mere" gaming situations.
If you don't have a copy ... you want one ... even if you didn't know it yet.
Guns! Guns! Guns! published by BTRC (the Blacksburg Tactical Research Center).
I have an original edition version published in the 90s on my shelf, and that book taught me more about guns (how they work, how they are made, etc.) than almost anything else in the fiction and non-fiction book markets (s'truth!). 3G was simply THAT USEFUL for thinking about how to model guns and their performance.
I even have an electrical engineering friend of mine who built sonars for the USN ask me ... "what's the cartridge equivalent to electrical capacitors capable of holding 1200 joules? I need to explain the potential hazards of a short circuit in the wrong location to some students I'm training."
So I went to a handy copy of Guns! Guns! Guns! on the shelf, consulted the tables in the back for standard ammo, found the nearest match and replied ... "a 12 gauge shotgun shell" ... to which my friend thanked me profusely and was able to tell their EE students that if they were careless around the board and it blew up in their faces, just ONE of the capacitors (and there was more than one on the board!) would explode with the explosive energy of a 12 gauge shotgun shell, at close range ... and there would be fragmentation effects involved in the rapid unscheduled disassembly involved (and a bad day would be had).
Apparently the warning focused the attention of those students EXTREMELY EFFECTIVELY on the potential hazards of carelessness around having that much potential energy stored in the capacitors on that specific circuit board design ... because I never heard of anyone shorting something out and having the capacitors blow up in their faces, ruining everyone's day, after the safety briefing had been given. For some reason, everyone who worked with that circuit board had the requisite amount of RESPECT for what they were handling (not quite sure why though, since other boards would sometimes explode parts from time to time, but that's the EE defense contracting world for you).
So consider this a major shout out on the value of Guns! Guns! Guns! by BTRC beyond the book's application to "mere" gaming situations.
If you don't have a copy ... you want one ... even if you didn't know it yet.
Well, maybe I'll have a look, but I'm honestly not that much of a gun guy other than for games.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. It would be one helluva nail gun.
2. So steel wire with a four millimetre diameter could be a cheap alternative.
3. It would have to fragment after penetrating armour.
4. Considering the supposed muzzle velocity, would it tumble while in the body?
5. How about spin and expand?
2. So steel wire with a four millimetre diameter could be a cheap alternative.
3. It would have to fragment after penetrating armour.
4. Considering the supposed muzzle velocity, would it tumble while in the body?
5. How about spin and expand?
We have to assume that the bullet composition is designed to better expand within the target vs just punch right through.
