RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
I too have always thought of the 2D map as a game artifact. A couple of people have commented to me about it over the years, but that is it. When I was _much_ younger, it was slightly irritating, but no longer.
"No exploration left" vs. Known Space
- Thread starter danejohnson
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EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Alpha centauri is actually quite a bit 'below' Sol, as are some of the further bright stars.Originally posted by Jame:
Thanks, RainofSteel.
Come to think of it, I think I heard that some of the systems may be a parsec "up" or "down" from the plane, but were represented as being in the same plane for game balance and for letting PCs with J-1 ships reach them.
The Imperium already knew much of the arrangment of stars and plantets from old maps and observations. The first explorers were to a larged degree searching for cultural and political geography. And they are still doing that. Interclan relations among Aslan are even more unstable than human international relations. The Vargr don't have any stabilty at all. Social dynamics are constantly changing, and the Imperium must at best be several years behind on intell in any given year. So even if every star on the map had been surveyed (and there's still quite a bit unsurveyed) someone would
still have to go out their. There is no reason todays scouts have to yeld place to the scouts of the heroic age.
still have to go out their. There is no reason todays scouts have to yeld place to the scouts of the heroic age.
Evil Doktor wrote, "Alpha centauri is actually quite a bit 'below' Sol, as are some of the further bright stars."
Unless you are in Australia! As I understand it though, this trio is more towards the Galactic Core.
If I were an exploration minded interstellar imperium...I would setup colonies at known nice planets, where observatories using powerfull arrays of telescopes looked for nearby planets and sophant activity. Scouts would investigate further. Other 'nice' planets noticed from the previous would be similarly colonized. Gas Giant orbiting way-stations would provide fuel and protection for routes between. Encourage heavily privatized exploration, supported by the Subsidized merchant marines (or similar pseudo govt service), the Impy Scout Service, and later the Impy Navy
As for 3d Traveller, for Pen&Paper it would be too complex, not fun. Any kind of Computer based traveller game, should it include...carefully.
THREAD DERAILMENT!: How would you like to see an online version of Travller? (a full MMORPG or NWN style, or other?)
Unless you are in Australia!
As I understand it though, this trio is more towards the Galactic Core.If I were an exploration minded interstellar imperium...I would setup colonies at known nice planets, where observatories using powerfull arrays of telescopes looked for nearby planets and sophant activity. Scouts would investigate further. Other 'nice' planets noticed from the previous would be similarly colonized. Gas Giant orbiting way-stations would provide fuel and protection for routes between. Encourage heavily privatized exploration, supported by the Subsidized merchant marines (or similar pseudo govt service), the Impy Scout Service, and later the Impy Navy
As for 3d Traveller, for Pen&Paper it would be too complex, not fun. Any kind of Computer based traveller game, should it include...carefully.
THREAD DERAILMENT!: How would you like to see an online version of Travller? (a full MMORPG or NWN style, or other?)
Rancke, I merely _thought_ I read a tone. Hopefully we'll never exchange harsh words.
Hey Hecateus, I'd be interested in a computerized Traveller, but something offline (more like, say, Master of Orion or Dark Forces; maybe something like Spiderweb Software's Nethergate). Don't like internet charges for games!
Hey Hecateus, I'd be interested in a computerized Traveller, but something offline (more like, say, Master of Orion or Dark Forces; maybe something like Spiderweb Software's Nethergate). Don't like internet charges for games!
I think a computerized Traveller should have a 3-D map on disk. Computers have no problems with 3-D and keeping track of distances in 3-D. What a computer should be able to do is analyze its 3-D stellar data base and determine which stars are within a Jump-1, Jump-2, Jump-3, Jump-4, Jump-5, and Jump-6 of the PC starship's current location. Also should a Traveller Game be a flight simulator when PCs are in their starships or perhaps an arcade game when its spaceship vs spaceship?
How about using jump tanks and the expensive mysterious double jump fuel that can be found in some CT home rules.
There are plenty of unexplored elements of the imperium but I'm not a huge imperium fan. The TNE timeline is far more interesting. Although some home rules have taken the Regency a bit far, in my opinion.
Actually I'm a fan of developing a 3D version of the star map. Say 6 parsecs up and 6 down for example. Assume the existing substates own the +and- regions. The existing map could be -2 to +2 parsecs modified with an addition ups digit. It would be necessary to develop a -6 to -4 map and a +4 to +6 map. This would increase the size of the map with frontier parsecs. Anything beyond -6 and +6 is part of the vague frontier. Accessible but thin.
Astronomers, How wide is our arm of the galaxy? I believe there are a couple 3D universe websites out there.
Savage
There are plenty of unexplored elements of the imperium but I'm not a huge imperium fan. The TNE timeline is far more interesting. Although some home rules have taken the Regency a bit far, in my opinion.
Actually I'm a fan of developing a 3D version of the star map. Say 6 parsecs up and 6 down for example. Assume the existing substates own the +and- regions. The existing map could be -2 to +2 parsecs modified with an addition ups digit. It would be necessary to develop a -6 to -4 map and a +4 to +6 map. This would increase the size of the map with frontier parsecs. Anything beyond -6 and +6 is part of the vague frontier. Accessible but thin.
Astronomers, How wide is our arm of the galaxy? I believe there are a couple 3D universe websites out there.
Savage
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Sing it once and know it for life
From the Monty Python movie "The Meaning of Life" an excerpt of the Galaxy Song...
"Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide."
A song just chock full of little galactic astronomical tidbits and a great final line
From the Monty Python movie "The Meaning of Life" an excerpt of the Galaxy Song...
"Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide."
A song just chock full of little galactic astronomical tidbits and a great final line
That's about 1,000 parsecs thick. I think TNE would be the best setting to do 3D, with the collapse of civilization, no one is shure where they are. One's horizons are a lot closer and one is much more concerned with whats near than what's far. Travel is a lot more dangerous than in the civilized Imperium, there are bandits, pirates, thugs, and warlords everywhere. Some techno-barbarians plundering planets. I think the 4th Imperium should be smaller than the third, sort of like a space age Byzantium. i kind of like the idea of a dark ages in space. The Nobles will become more warlordish and less of the "powder puffs" they were in the previous civilized era. If using T20, I think the class Noble should be a pretige class with 1 level of Mercenary as a requirement. People in the wilds shouldn't value culture or refinements as much. TNE Nobles will be quite savage, ruling with an Iron fist and have more absolute political and military power than in previous eras. Knights would be leaders of mercenary units Barons and Dukes would wage wars with one another. A few kings would be around, but their right to rule would always be challenged. There would be guilds of starship mechanics, that know how to fix and repair starships.
mad13142000
SOC-13
Ok, If someone can tell me the contents of Mikhail Sector - Only 3 away from Sol, or X'kug, only 2 away from Gateway, THEN I'll say we need to expand the OTU - Until it is all mapped, the 3d thing is a redherring...The game uses a 2d map, so what...There are like 50 named sectors in canon that have NOTHING about them...Name the subsectors, the states, the minor aliens, then place stars and worlds...LOTS OF WORK to do....
That is what exploration is all about, not finding new ways to add even MORE undefined data about the OTU...
-MADDog
That is what exploration is all about, not finding new ways to add even MORE undefined data about the OTU...
-MADDog
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I think I'd agree MadDog. In fact a part of the reason I was so eager to post the little bit of info re the galaxy we call the Milky Way was to show just how big space is.
I mean there is more galaxay above AND below the middle of the disc out here than the Imperium is across. I think. Its a guess. Hmm let's see 1,000 parsecs thick and the Imperium is about 5 sectors across times 4 subsectors per times 10 parsecs per is about 200 parsecs. OK make that double, so its thicker than the whole of the bulk of charted space, both above and below the plane. Sol is I think a little below the plane iirc but that's beside the point.
Edit: And my memory fails me again, we are actually just above the equatorial disc, a mere 20 light years. Gotta love the net for quick google facts, when you can trust the source
The late Carl Sagan really put it in perspective by noting that we are one mundane world orbiting one unremarkable star in a galxay of billions of stars in a universe of billions of galaxys, not his words but the general idea.
So if you want to tackle a 'realistic' 3D galaxy you're going to need to change the Imperium significantly. Like only a few star systems are worth putting a mark on the map, and the average jump will have to be more on the order of J6 with drives going up to J36. Even then to traverse the depth of the outer spiral arm in our neighbourhood would require about a year with good speed. And forget about making a trip to the Andromeda galaxy in your lifetime, even if you could find fuel to do it.
I'm rambling, let me finish with "Space is big. Really big. You wouldn't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is." and advise that if you really think there's nothing left to explore, all the frontiers have been conqured, and everywhere you go there's somebody else's bootprints, then you really aren't looking. True today on Earth, even in your own little part of it in all likelyhood, barring you're trapped in a concrete jungle. Hmm still rambling, somebody just hit the add reply button for me alre...
I mean there is more galaxay above AND below the middle of the disc out here than the Imperium is across. I think. Its a guess. Hmm let's see 1,000 parsecs thick and the Imperium is about 5 sectors across times 4 subsectors per times 10 parsecs per is about 200 parsecs. OK make that double, so its thicker than the whole of the bulk of charted space, both above and below the plane. Sol is I think a little below the plane iirc but that's beside the point.
Edit: And my memory fails me again, we are actually just above the equatorial disc, a mere 20 light years. Gotta love the net for quick google facts, when you can trust the source
The late Carl Sagan really put it in perspective by noting that we are one mundane world orbiting one unremarkable star in a galxay of billions of stars in a universe of billions of galaxys, not his words but the general idea.
So if you want to tackle a 'realistic' 3D galaxy you're going to need to change the Imperium significantly. Like only a few star systems are worth putting a mark on the map, and the average jump will have to be more on the order of J6 with drives going up to J36. Even then to traverse the depth of the outer spiral arm in our neighbourhood would require about a year with good speed. And forget about making a trip to the Andromeda galaxy in your lifetime, even if you could find fuel to do it.
I'm rambling, let me finish with "Space is big. Really big. You wouldn't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is." and advise that if you really think there's nothing left to explore, all the frontiers have been conqured, and everywhere you go there's somebody else's bootprints, then you really aren't looking. True today on Earth, even in your own little part of it in all likelyhood, barring you're trapped in a concrete jungle. Hmm still rambling, somebody just hit the add reply button for me alre...
Ok I was pretty tired when I wrote that question... so we'd need a seriously big map.
Kinda silly that the imperium is only 11000 worlds. This was a nice thing about the 2300 map. I guess the proper question is how thick is the dense portion of our arm that the imperium is in. That might be a better way to handle approach.
Not to deviate from the original topic too much but I'd say it the imperium should be pretty big.
This might make an interesting seperate discussion.
I always found it unpleasant to ref within the juristiction of TNS. Perhaps that's the real issue here.
Savage
Kinda silly that the imperium is only 11000 worlds. This was a nice thing about the 2300 map. I guess the proper question is how thick is the dense portion of our arm that the imperium is in. That might be a better way to handle approach.
Not to deviate from the original topic too much but I'd say it the imperium should be pretty big.
This might make an interesting seperate discussion.
I always found it unpleasant to ref within the juristiction of TNS. Perhaps that's the real issue here.
Savage
mad13142000
SOC-13
The problem with Real Life, is that we are not guaranteed that EACH star will contain A planet, much less the almost habital one you find in Traveler...So a RL 3d map of Imperial Space may contain 30-45 thousand actual stars to accomidate those 11k worlds...
Don't know about the rest of you, but I spend enough gametime piddling around doing nothing exciting, I'd hate to have to Roleplay jumps into 2 or 3 planetless systems before I got to the next system with A planet, not to mention one with a habital planet....
<zzzzzzzzzzzz...>
<snore>
What? Are we there yet??????
It's for the good of the game
-MADDog
Don't know about the rest of you, but I spend enough gametime piddling around doing nothing exciting, I'd hate to have to Roleplay jumps into 2 or 3 planetless systems before I got to the next system with A planet, not to mention one with a habital planet....
<zzzzzzzzzzzz...>
<snore>
What? Are we there yet??????
It's for the good of the game
-MADDog
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hi Savage, hope I didn't come off sounding too heavy or wet blanketish. You might have a good idea there breaking off a topic for a "Big Imperium" discussion. Anyway I think the project could be more than I'd want to tackle though with a few fudges like bigger jumps, sparser settlements and such it could be interesting. If I read you right.
As for MadDog's comment about hitting a few empty systems between ports I can see that type of game being exciting, different strokes I guess.
I just finished watching a program about current extra-solar planet hunters. Some relavent points, which MadDog hinted at perhaps from watching the same show. It looks like hell systems, i.e. super-giant gas giants in fast close orbits and little else, may be the norm. To date a Sol type system seems to be on the order of 1 in 50. And that only means one with outer orbit gas giants of 'normal' size and possible rocky worlds in inner orbits, no guarantee they'd be habitable or even there. More data on the program in the "holo" thread in the "lounge". Night all.
As for MadDog's comment about hitting a few empty systems between ports I can see that type of game being exciting, different strokes I guess.
I just finished watching a program about current extra-solar planet hunters. Some relavent points, which MadDog hinted at perhaps from watching the same show. It looks like hell systems, i.e. super-giant gas giants in fast close orbits and little else, may be the norm. To date a Sol type system seems to be on the order of 1 in 50. And that only means one with outer orbit gas giants of 'normal' size and possible rocky worlds in inner orbits, no guarantee they'd be habitable or even there. More data on the program in the "holo" thread in the "lounge". Night all.
I'm beginning to get around to write up another MTU, which uses about jump 3 (in a day, with five days' worth of fuel) and only a few inhbited systems. This obviously leaves a LOT of space to explore. This isn't what I wanted to say, but since I've forgotten it, never mind that.
So: SOMEONE GIVE ME A STARSHIP ALREADY!
So: SOMEONE GIVE ME A STARSHIP ALREADY!
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You could be right about the dimensions. I was after all relying on a song by Eric IdleOriginally posted by Hecateus:
Far trader,
As I understand it, the thickness of of stars in the galaxy is about 1000 'light years' not parsecs...I spent a fair amount of time trying to find that info too.
Obviously, this still doesn't solve the 2d/3d problem.
though I did check the basic facts when it first came out, what, about 20 years ago? According to last nights program on our home gal the number of stars is 200 billion, though a quick search shows the most recent estimate (and it's important to note all these are estimates) is more like 400 billion. As for the thickness it probably depends on who does the measure and how they determine the mean thickness of the disk. I've see anywhere from about 300 parsecs to 1000 parsecs. Still, like you say it doesn't solve the problem, never meant to in fact, just trying to put in perspective just how BIG the problem is Similar threads
