Nobility...

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

(pouring a nice big snifter of Rurrian Cognac...)

It would seem there has been some decidedly Large talk behind my sleeping back...

My Lords, IMTU, individuals in The Peerage have a bvariance of character that you would find in any societal group. Some are kind and benevolent (amoung whom I hope I rank, what?) While others would would make Caligula seem like a crossing guard...

As to thier effectiveness in Imperial Society, There would be no grand space fleets and other endeavors without the guidance and societal cohesion that they provide.

Yes, Yes, a million times yes, there certainly is precedent for Hereditary leadership being a detrimental thing, but consider, who would be more qualified to govern than those who grew up around the Imperium's inner workings? When the system works, it works, when it does not, It's time for a new Noble. Nobles on the whole are those that Do for the good of thier charges and the Imperium. To not do so would be to cut your own throat.

The scope of a Noble's Responsibility goes far beyond the theater of thier own fiefs an holdings (which are always appointed for a reason) and are all part of a web of government that keeps the X-boats coming to your doorstep. The task is far from easy, and more than justifies a few personal indulgences.

I have found that those that would besmirch the role of The Peerage, or show contempt for it, usually have an Axe of Ambition to grind. This lot invariably has its own plan to "fix" the Imperium, which usually involves some form of base Rebellion, with self gratification as the ultimate goal. The Prison Asteroids are chocked full of such adventurers, and rightly so...

A Title is more often not as much fun as it looks, what?

 

[alanb]

"Let's be clear about this. The Solomani Party was founded by the faction of the Imperial nobility that would rather wear Klan hoods than Ducal coronets."

- Ouzogh, for the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

 

[jfwking]

Something I see here is a bit of confusion over what nobles are.

If a Noble is someone that has the job because mum or dad did then any corp who inherited the company from mum/dad is equaly a noble.

If a noble is a level of power then many in corp/burecratic structures are nobles.

If a noble is rich then are not the rich equaly nobles.

Nobles are a historic answer to lack of comunication and distribution of the leaders authority via underbosses. Within the Imperium they are the nobles of the moot. Within the Solomani sphere they are the heriditary leaders or the party. In vilani space they are the CEOs of the great corps.

Nobles are like any other people, there are useless generals who got the job because of daddies influence as there are useless planetary administrators who have rich mothers.

Noble is a job description you can sometimes earn but mostly its a gift from the parents. You can have underhand sly nasty evil nobles fighting against honourable fair decent corp CEOs next door to decent upstanding nobles being the only ones holding off the corp slavery.

Basicly if the hereditary titles loose power to the big bank accounts then the nobles will make/marry big bank accounts bring the nobility back to the top of the heap. Same applies to any other way that power in your TU is measured. This also works in reverse. Rich families marrying the kids to noble families to get access to those same noble titles for the grandchildren.

Nowhere will have a class or group that are as useless/powerless as has been mentioned above. They will either fall to the bottom of the social structure or they will absorb the power elite and become them in time.

 

[flykiller]

When the system works, it works, when it does not, It's time for a new Noble.

and just who decides when it's not working, and when it's time for a new noble, and who that noble will be?

I have found that those that would besmirch the role of The Peerage, or show contempt for it, usually have an Axe of Ambition to grind. This lot invariably has its own plan to "fix" the Imperium, which usually involves some form of base Rebellion, with self gratification as the ultimate goal. The Prison Asteroids are chock full of such adventurers, and rightly so...

sounds like some nobles. but the prison asteroids are not chock full of _them_.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

" and just who decides when it's not working, and when it's time for a new noble, and who that noble will be? "

Ultimately the Emperor, after substantial testimonal from the Moot as the the character of the misdeed.

 

[flykiller]

" and just who decides when it's not working, and when it's time for a new noble, and who that noble will be? "

Ultimately the Emperor, after substantial testimonal from the Moot as the the character of the misdeed.

exactly. and the only time they will decide that the system isn't working or that it's time for a new noble is when the other nobles are threatened. this is like doctors covering up each other's mistakes, the U.S. congress drawing up protected districts for its members, and police getting their stories straight. history shows that such an incestuous system invites abuse, disrespect, and rebellion. there will have to be a bit more to it than that.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:

Ultimately the Emperor, after substantial testimonal from the Moot as the the character of the misdeed.

People may find some recent (and lengthy) discussions on the TML interesting. For some reason it started from a 1248 thread (thus most posts have 1248 in them) but it's really branched off. (role and power of the moot, feudal technocracy, Lucan/Dulinor, etc)

Take a look in this month and last's archives .

Personally the details haven't come into play yet and I'd rather be playing a game that writing a book on Imperium Nobles. Besides LKW's already doing that.

Though I have made a Noble "main" NPC in an attempt to grok playing a noble.

Casey

 

[flykiller]

Nobles are a historic answer to lack of comunication and distribution of the leaders authority via underbosses.

no, nobles are the remains of the rulers of the little kingdoms that existed before one king becomes pre-emminent. what you are thinking of is viceroys - those who act in place of, and in the name of, a distant king.

instead of a monolithic nobility, perhaps a system of local nobles combined with semi-permanent viceroys would game better.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by flykiller:

[qb]
instead of a monolithic nobility, perhaps a system of local nobles combined with semi-permanent viceroys would game better.

Perhaps something like the Achaemenid Persian satraps during the Greek Classical and the Hellenistic / Diadochi (Successors) periods. The Seleucids and Parthians didn't really change the governmental model that much but the Sassanid Persians were much more feudal.

From just a glance the Mandarin model may also be viable, though that's more First Imperium.

Both are viable for inspiration considering the 18thc. Empire of the Seas travel/communications style of the OTU. For that matter, late Roman Republic / Roman Empire as well. (Plutarch / Gibbon highly recommended)

Casey

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

"exactly. and the only time they will decide that the system isn't working or that it's time for a new noble is when the other nobles are threatened. this is like doctors covering up each other's mistakes, the U.S. congress drawing up protected districts for its members, and police getting their stories straight. history shows that such an incestuous system invites abuse, disrespect, and rebellion. there will have to be a bit more to it than that. "

More like, when a part of the Imperium is a risk, or not working properly, then we step in... Interstellar Trade alone demands it. If one world is faulty, many others are affected by it... the conditions brought on by misrule can be easy to spot to the trained eye. Nobles that politically (not personally) enjoy selfish endeavors do not work for the good of the Imperium, but seek to disrupt it for thier own ends... a dicey venture indeed...

 

[alanb]

" and just who decides when it's not working, and when it's time for a new noble, and who that noble will be? "

Ultimately the Emperor, after substantial testimonal from the Moot as the the character of the misdeed.

It's called "getting caught".

Nobles engage in power struggles all the time. Just check out the canonical conflicts between LSP and Sternmetal Horizons. The wars they fight are so frequent that they might as well be considered a single war, fought over a considerable section of the Spinward Marches, and doubtless beyond.

How long has this war been going for? Who knows.

While this is probably mostly a "Good War" fought between mercs and local proxies, it doubtless has its reflection in noble intrigues.

At times, these intrigues probably get deadly. And when assassinations are on the agenda, disgracing and discrediting your opponents is actually a softer option.

It's a pretty fair bet that there are quite frequent attempts to blow the whistle on rival nobles' misdeeds. It's likely that frameup attempts happen too.

The most likely result of that is that anything "dubious" that goes on will be handled at as low a level in the chain of command as possible. Deniability will be at a premium. But that doesn't mean that nobles won't be involved in assassinations, frameups, wars, piracy, hijacking, kidnapping, terrorism and all the other stuff that makes Traveller interesting. It just means that it will be difficult to prove it, at least to the standard required by a court of law or the Moot.

And if by some chance you do succeed, you've just made a Megacorp-load of deadly enemies. You had better hope your own friends consider you indispensible...

Alan B

 

[flykiller]

It's a pretty fair bet that there are quite frequent attempts to blow the whistle on rival nobles' misdeeds. It's likely that frameup attempts happen too.

I think we need to start at the beginning here.

historically, most men were ignorant, savage, uneducated, superstitious peasants (and I mean that in the best sense). primitive nobles were the few people who were superior - usually in the military skills, but in a looting culture this is a valid superiority - and their superiority gave some advantage to the unwashed masses who followed them. they won battles, they spoke with gods, they could write, they knew when to plant and when to harvest, they could judge and make decisions. in other words, a primitive noble was someone that some number of people were better off with than without.

now fast forward to the third imperium. the people are largely just as educated, informed, and wealthy as any noble, are spread out over a vast area, and are free to come and go as they can afford. they will not simply up and accept unaccountable nobles without a good reason. so ... what is that reason? how is the average imperial better off with nobles than without? how is the first lady of mora better off with nobles than without? how is the C.E.O. of tukera better off with nobles than without? I don't think that providing fodder for the gossip tabloids is going to suffice.

perhaps it's a vilani thing - they simply retain a nobility out of perverse conservativism.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

The Megacorporations are better off becuase the have the Nobility to act as a ready-made Market Barometer for the markets on their individual worlds... the Nobles see how a society moves as a unit, and can interpret the needs that the Corporatons provide goods and services to fufill... Many of the Noble houses hold substantial Megacorporation stock portfolios for a good reason beyond mere monetary gain... then can have a say in what a megacorporation does, to an extent. There are several that exploit this to make themselves rich, yes, but then there are some that see the value of Industry and Government working together smoothly for the good of all...

Often the very Megacorporation system itself is a large part of the "problem" if it must be a problem... consider the amount of time the big corps have had to develop incredibly byzantine operational structures... parsecs and parsecs of red tape... who but the ones who travel in high societal circles would be better at determining who to talk to to get what done? The Nobles can go to the corps and say, "We need X by this date, here is the money..." and the corps can literally bank on that, in most cases... If the First Lady of Mora knows what is good for her and her people, she would know it would be in her best interest to maintain a favorable realtionship with the ones that keep her in Plate and Coin...

Bearing in mind that I am considered to be quite cosmopolitan by any racial standard, I must point out that one must consider we Vilani were in Space, moving outward and exploring,(some good, some ill, but some nonetheless) while most Solomani had barely just gotten done with mastering fishing grubs out of logs with sticks and murdering each other... When one considers the years of chaos and bloodshed in the time of thier coming, a little tension is to be expected at times when dealing with them. One need only ask a Vegan for a Testimonial as to how Cosmopolitan the Solomani are, Sir.

 

[eiladayn]

But weren't the Vilani JUST uplifted transplanted Solomani whose only REAL reason to claim nobility over and above the rest of Humaniti is based upon the GIFTS given to them by the Ancients who put them where they were and GIFTED them with the technology to rule the galaxy?

Pappy

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
the people [...] will not simply up and accept unaccountable nobles without a good reason. so ... what is that reason? how is the average imperial better off with nobles than without? how is the first lady of mora better off with nobles than without? how is the C.E.O. of tukera better off with nobles than without?

It's really very simple.

The Imperium is a dictatorship.

More precisely, it is an oligarchy, whose ruling elite exercise dictatorial power over their subjects.

This elite is the nobility. The nobility consists of the owners of the megacorps, planetary rulers, senior bureaucrats and military leaders.

The CEO of Tukera is better off with nobles because he is one. Ditto for the First Lady of Mora.

The "average Imperial" probably would be better without them. On the other hand, the Imperial fleet is what is keeping the Vargr from his/her/its doorstep.

The Imperial system doesn't get overthrown because the Imperium is big. It's pretty much impossible to organise a revolt across the whole thing. As a result, revolts are localised, and can be crushed in detail.

And if a revolution was to succeed, it would involve billions of deaths, and who knows if what would replace the Imperium would be better? "After all, everyone knows that democracy doesn't work across interstellar distances."

In most cases, people just accept the status quo and try and get on with their lives. Occasionally, a particularly unpleasant local leader (noble) will get what's coming to them, but the system as a whole keeps going.

Alan B

 

[eiladayn]

So....if it works, it ain't broke don't try to fix it?

Pappy

 

[flykiller]

The Megacorporations are better off becuase the have the Nobility to act as a ready-made Market Barometer for the markets on their individual worlds... the Nobles see how a society moves as a unit, and can interpret the needs that the Corporatons provide goods and services to fufill...

the visible hand, eh? the market is its own barometer, and the people can do their own interpreting. no need for nobles there, even if they could be barometers and interpreters, which they can't be. "barometer" here means judge, and "interpret" here means control, and there's no need for a noble system to perform either function.

Many of the Noble houses hold substantial Megacorporation stock portfolios for a good reason beyond mere monetary gain... then can have a say in what a megacorporation does, to an extent. There are several that exploit this to make themselves rich, yes, but then there are some that see the value of Industry and Government working together smoothly for the good of all...

the japanese model, yes? problem is that industry and government will work together for their own good and not anyone else's. those businesses, and nobles, who take another approach will be driven out of business.

If the First Lady of Mora knows what is good for her and her people, she would know it would be in her best interest to maintain a favorable realtionship with the ones that keep her in Plate and Coin...

whoever "keeps her in plate and coin", it is not the nobles. unless, of course, the nobles have some kind of protection racket going on ... ?

Bearing in mind that I am considered to be quite cosmopolitan by any racial standard, I must point out that one must consider we Vilani were in Space, moving outward and exploring,(some good, some ill, but some nonetheless) while most Solomani had barely just gotten done with mastering fishing grubs out of logs with sticks and murdering each other... When one considers the years of chaos and bloodshed in the time of thier coming, a little tension is to be expected at times when dealing with them. One need only ask a Vegan for a Testimonial as to how Cosmopolitan the Solomani are, Sir.

with respect, non sequiter. vilani conservativism, irrespective of one's view of them or the solomani, is the only viable reason I've heard yet for a third imperium nobility.

 

[flykiller]

It's really very simple.

The Imperium is a dictatorship.

More precisely, it is an oligarchy, whose ruling elite exercise dictatorial power over their subjects.

that's not simple, it's simplistic. how does a huge collection of distant planets, each with its own independent history extending into the long night and independent leadership, simply hand over all of this to any kind of nobility? what makes a planet like collace simply up and say, "we want to become members of the imperium, pay taxes to it, and submit to an emperor who is years away"? what's the benefit?

This elite is the nobility. The nobility consists of the owners of the megacorps, planetary rulers, senior bureaucrats and military leaders.

The CEO of Tukera is better off with nobles because he is one. Ditto for the First Lady of Mora.

unfortunately this doesn't work either. why should the leaders of these independent, successful, wealthy organizations feel any loyalty to some outside club, a club that has no power except that which is given by or taken from _them_ in the first place? what would any nobility give them that they don't already have? a warm feeling? seems to me they'd want to remain big ruling fish in their little ponds instead of becoming little subordinate fish in a galactic pond.

The "average Imperial" probably would be better without them. On the other hand, the Imperial fleet is what is keeping the Vargr from his/her/its doorstep.

a very valid need, yes - but does it require a nobility, specifically a semi-hereditary cadre of official unanswerable decision makers, to implement? seems to me that the "imperial fleet" is really the mora, trin, and fornice fleets in drag.

but the system as a whole keeps going.

that doesn't explain how it got started in the first place, what sustains it, or why anyone anywhere supports it.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
how does a huge collection of distant planets, each with its own independent history extending into the long night and independent leadership, simply hand over all of this to any kind of nobility? what makes a planet like collace simply up and say, "we want to become members of the imperium, pay taxes to it, and submit to an emperor who is years away"? what's the benefit?

This is the heart of the matter. I'll just address this point, because the others you raised are secondary aspects of it, IMHO.

Why have an interstellar state at all?

Well, trade for one. The Imperium is a trade bloc.

Mutual defence. The Imperium is a military alliance, and (relatively speaking) a non-aggression pact.

Piracy suppression. A combination of the previous two points.

Without these things, what do you have? Interstellar anarchy, war, piracy - the Long Night. And yes, empire builders. The alternative to the Imperium is a plethora of pocket empires, at least some of which will be at war with each other at any period of time. That's interstellar war - nuclear war. War with Meson Guns, and Particle Accelerators. Drop Troops landing in your cities. And so on...

That's why an interstellar state is preferable to the alternative. The next question is the form of the interstellar state: Why did the Imperium take on the form it did?

Well, first of all, any large interstellar state will be a confederation of one sort or other. There will necessarily be a large degree of local autonomy. This, incidentally, is good news for planetary rulers, and wannabe subsector Dukes. It means that it can accomodate existing elites without threatening their position.

So, it's a Confederation: why isn't it a democracy? Well, on an ideological level, there's the argument that democracy doesn't work on an interstellar level. This isn't true. A better reason is much simpler: the Sylean Federation was not a democracy. Nor was Vland. Nor, indeed, are most of the major worlds of the Imperium.

The Imperium is a deal stitched up between the nobility. It represents them, not their subjects. Indeed, it would be quite proper to suggest that the nobility are the only genuine "citizens" of the Imperium. Everyone else is a subject.

This oligarchic nature is further reinforced by the megacorps. We should note here that there are probably lots of smaller corporations - some sector spanning - that behave in much the same way, just on a smaller scale. The megacorps aren't democracies either.

At some level, they _are_ the Imperium. Remember that the Imperium is a trade bloc? Well, guess who are the main players in that trade. For all their conflicts, the megacorps have a common interest in "free" trade, the suppression of piracy and an end to wars that threaten their interests.

There are real reasons to have an interstellar state. There are real reasons why that state would be an oligarchy. The result is: the Imperium.

There are other possible solutions, of course, but the Imperium is just the one applied in - the Imperium.

Alan B

 

[flykiller]

The Imperium is a deal stitched up between the nobility. It represents them, not their subjects. Indeed, it would be quite proper to suggest that the nobility are the only genuine "citizens" of the Imperium. Everyone else is a subject.

though it isn't required to achieve the goals you list (except perhaps external defense) the idea of an interstellar state is reasonable. and you're right, it's not likely to be a popular democracy. but an interstellar nobility doesn't follow - in fact, it is contra-indicated. as these worlds coalesce into an interstellar state they will jealously safeguard their own interests and not allow any external nobility to arise. one might see a senior senator morph into an emperor in command of a fleet, but there is no way he would ever gain access to any fleet that wasn't built by the member world leaders, and there is no way they would ever place vessels under his command without conditions and guarantees. high-tech A worlds especially are never going to acknowledge any alien duke, and if one or more of them goes their own political way without disrupting trade then just who is going to care enough to do anything about it?

I'm coming to the conclusion that strong local rulers, strong local moots supplemented by a distant imperial moot, a weak emperor, and imperial viceroys directing external relations, is the most reasonable model.