Nobility...

[alanb]

Originally posted by flykiller:
as these worlds coalesce into an interstellar state they will jealously safeguard their own interests and not allow any external nobility to arise. one might see a senior senator morph into an emperor in command of a fleet, but there is no way he would ever gain access to any fleet that wasn't built by the member world leaders, and there is no way they would ever place vessels under his command without conditions and guarantees. high-tech A worlds especially are never going to acknowledge any alien duke, and if one or more of them goes their own political way without disrupting trade then just who is going to care enough to do anything about it?

Well, presumably the Emperor would have access to _some_ resources, otherwise he wouldn't get to be Emperor... He would also be busily making alliances. And incidentally, a small interstellar state isn't necessarily a confederation, but could be a more cohesive empire. This would further expand the potential initial support base for the wouldbe Emperor.

And then there are the megacorps. Their interests aren't necessarily the same as the planetary governments. They're interested in trade, trade and trade, in that order, as well as anything that furthers this.

As for "alien" dukes: I would suspect that most dukes would be from major worlds in their own subsector. In addition, many subsectors would probably have contained previous pocket empires, whose capitals would seem to be logical subsector capitals. Even when no such previous governments existed, it is likely that some kind of previous connections would have existed, simply from proximity and trade. An "alien" from the next world over isn't as big a deal as one from sectors away.

Of course, it's possible for neighbouring worlds to be enemies, not allies! But that just means that the Imperium can balance the two off against each other.

Ultimately, though, the noble system has one great source of strength: dynastic marriage. It would only take a couple of generations for the noble families of a subsector to be connected by a dense web of family ties. While that could be a source of rivalries, it could also help build a sense of common interest in maintaining the "family business".

The "external nobility" would simply be those members of your own family that happen to live on other worlds, plus whatever loyal flunkies that have been rewarded for their services.

It is quite possible to postulate an Imperium with a weaker Imperial government. This could be quite fun to play in. But this isn't the canonical Imperium, which, for better or worse is the one we tend to base our discussions around, precisely so we are all on the same page.

The canonical Imperium is perfectly reasonable. It's not inevitable, but it's reasonable. And that's all that matters.

Simply, the starting conditions that existed at the foundation of the Imperium were more favourable to a "strong" Imperium than you are assuming. The Sylean Federation was a strong and rather centralised interstellar state. The Sylean dictator that converted it into the Imperium was able to take over the Federation's assets more or less wholesale, and lay the basis for a larger, if more decentralised Imperium. And if we believe Milieu 0, he was able to forge an alliance with a centralised Vilani state too.

He had economic and military power, and he was able to offer other worlds trade, peace and local autonomy. And the price he demanded wasn't too high. Enough worlds accepted. Others didn't - and instead of trade and peace they got piracy and war.

All of this took centuries, lasting through the reigns of many emperors. It didn't happen in a day.

I don't have a problem with the broad outlines of this account.

Alan

 

[Vargas]

Well, presumably the Emperor would have access to _some_ resources, otherwise he wouldn't get to be Emperor. . .

The Emperor is Archduke of Sylea, an old, wealthy, technologically advanced Domain, that and the Imperial families megacorporate (and other) holdings translates into the kind of economic power that's been discussed here.

A thought: Much of the discussion here has centered on the question of what is the purpose of the Imperium, trade, defense, whatever. Why can't the Imperium exist just because there's power to be had?

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Vargas:
A thought: Much of the discussion here has centered on the question of what is the purpose of the Imperium, trade, defense, whatever. Why can't the Imperium exist just because there's power to be had?

Because that's just metaphysics. We are trying to find a rational, logical reason for the Imperium to exist and persist for over a thousand years. We are trying to find a reason why people would bother to die to defend it.

The problem with there's "power to be had" is that it is essentially a religious argument - human nature is power-seeking, ie bad.

I have no desire to engage in that kind of philosophical speculation.

Alan

 

[jatay3]

The Imperium has to be an oligarchy. It can't be absolutist because the Emperor can't rule 15,000 worlds on his own. There can't be a full-scale democracy because of the communications lag. There might be representation where each world sends an elected representative to the moot.
However the government has to be run by someone. And up and coming beaureaucrats can't be promoted that far simply because man is mortal(though there are those whachamicallit-life extenders). On the other hand the ruling class of the Imperium would be so large that it would be fairly easy to pick a few competant personal to run the show and let the rest be useless playboys if they desire.
Be that as it may such systems aren't planted for rational reasons-they evolve. The Noble familys probably appeared because the original Sylean Republic was run by powerful families and Cleon simply gave them meaningless titles to humor them, but nothing more was changed.
It must be remembered that heriditary rule is more common historically than democracy. It is not even totally without advantages(I think of democracy as a means toward just government not the definition of it). If nothing else it gives up and coming rulers a chance to be educated in the craft of ruling. Moreover the son might not want to dissappoint daddy. The main disadvantages of the system is that it in effect puts the fate of millions to a "lottery". Moreover, in practice princes are often preened and flatered until they are useless.
These things said I think the best reason why the Imperium is hereditary is because it "always" was.

 

[jatay3]

Why do we have nobles in Traveller? The main reason is that they can do pagentry without looking drab or tacky. That is one reason why Europeans and Japanese sometimes keep them around long after they have been shorn of power. We all love a parade. Also they allow colorful things like clan feuds "princess fleeing the matchmaker" stories, etc.
That is not a good reason to give them real power in real life-but this is a sci-fi.
More seriously the British-Japanese-Scandinavian system of having a powerless person handle the ceremony of state, and having the one with the power be a boring beareaucrat is a good one. The Prime Minister is reminded that he is "Her Majesties Servant". The adulation and the power are not concentrated. It is not really "power" that corrupts-power is neutral. It is the pride that often comes from power and the adulation associated with it.
Of course things are different in the Imperium. The power and the honor are combined. On the other hand there is the power of others to balence it. And the "young playboys" at least have time to grow accustomed to their position. Self-made despots are usually worse, not least because they come in all of a sudden.
And by the way there is nothing inherently wrong about oligarchy. To say democracy is a "right" is to say that there is an inherent right to rule over others-for that is what this means, unless all elections are unanimous. Ruling is a responsibility whether done by a voter or a noble. I approve of democracy because it tends to work "less badly" at least in cultures that have 1000 years experience working it out. Which is is a subject for another time.

 

[LordVince]

Maybe I'm missing something, but just where does it SAY -- and I don't mean IMPLY, I mean come right out and state flatly -- that ALL Imperial Nobles are "imposed" upon planetary populations from "outside" (which I assume to mean the Emperor)?

I always understood the canon to be that the Imperium DOESN'T "rule" the member worlds -- it lets them all run themselves. That the only thing the Imperium claims to have a "rule" over is the "space between the worlds" -- and thus controls the transit rights. If this is the case, then wouldn't that mean that all "Imperial" Nobles "control" is those same Transit Rights? Wouldn't that make them, in essence, Toll Booth Operators?

Of course, this is an overly simplistic way to look at it, I'll grant you. Imperial Nobles are ADMINISTRATORS for the volume of space they are assigned. That inhabited planets happen to be loctaed within that space is secondary. The Imperium is ALL about TRADE. As long as everybody makes nice, the Trade will flow, there will be a car in every garage, two chickens in every pot -- and the Imperial Navy won't slag your ass into component molecules.

If you don't like the TITLES of Nobility -- if the trappings of Aristocracy stick in your egalitarian craw -- then just call the Emperor the President, call Archdukes Ministers, call Dukes Governors, and call cluster Viceroys Administers -- and let the Planetary Rulers keep calling themselves what they've always called themselves. And d'ya know what you get when you make all those fancy name changes?

The Imperium. That's what.

Whether you call'em "Nobles" or "Executives" or "Administrators", the fact is that SOMEWHERE, somebody with a HUGE amount of support behind him, is "running the show". Because of the communication lag that canon imposes upon them, that Person -- let's call him The Emperor -- decides that it wouldn't be "fair" (in his OPINION, of course) for folks out at the edge of creation to have to wait 6 months for their message to get to him, and then wait ANOTHER 6 months for an answer to get back -- ESPECIALLY if the message is "The water is rising, please send help!"

THEREFORE, the High Mucky-Muck has CHOSEN to decentralize his authority. "In The Beginning..." The Emperor (or Congress, or the Secretariat, or The Loyal Order of The Beaver) chose representatives that met what he thought were the qualifications for "a good administrator", and then assigned them regions of space to run "by the Authority of The Emperor, and In His Name". And then the Emperor said "If anything ever pops up that you can't handle on your own, call me, and the Navy that I control will slag their ass!" And then the Emperor added the caveat "And if YOU screw this up, I'll have the Navy that I control slag your ass!"

Oh, say, did I mention that The Emperor -- and all these "noble" administrators he's choosing -- yeah, all these folks are PEOPLE. Y'know, people; folks who live and work amoung their fellows, who raise kids, buy consumer goods, who have flaws and foibles, and who are easilly swayed by their own emotions and predjudices -- regular folks, just like you and me. Y'know...Morons.

And why WOULDN'T the Emperor, when he's making his list of "What Makes A Good Noble", add "Must know/be from the region"? It just makes good sense to give control to "a local boy", rather than some "furriner" -- it just avoids a whole buttload of problems, right from the get-go.

To wrap up my tirade, the Imperium is, at it's basic, just a Trade Group. It doesn't claim to have the right to DIRECTLY control the lives of every one of it's "citizens". The Imperium is a large organization, and like any large organization it needs supervisors and administrators to insure that the rules that it operates by are followed as best as is HUMANLY (no non-human slight intended, here) possible. And lastly, the Imperium is a Meritocracy -- it REWARDS those who serve it, in order to engender loyalty, and to entice competant acheivment from its servants. Sophonts are SOCIAL creatures, and the trappings of Nobility are SOCIAL rewards (as well as political and economic).

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

You make a fine point, Lord Vince, I think more often that not, we are confined by the Terran perception of the concept of nobility. Being a noble in a Traveller sense does not mean you get to sleep with a "subject" gal on her wedding night, or any other such nonsense, but more like making sure that your particular cog in the Imperial Machine is relatively squeek-free.

As to why, centralized power is essential to good governing, whatever its form. When you consider the strange phenomena associated with large populations, how invariably, when left to thier own devices, it suddenly becomes "Make your own Law Day" ie: Anarchy.

While Anarchy may in form seem appealing to half-baked college students and other "radicals", it more often than not ends up with a lot of people being killed, and disrupted trade. Naughty Naughty. The Terran Chinese Warlord period is a good example of this. A hand on the societal rudder is indeed necessary. The firmness of that hand would of course depend upon the population's view of the larger picture of Imperial Society. Those that would boatrock for the sake of personal ambition or megalomania deserve what the get, as they do not serve the Imperium, they serve themselves.

I will not go so far to say that Nobles are always the good guys, But the smart ones are...

 

[jatay3]

Actually I never liked the idea of having a "good empire"(star trek) or a "bad empire"(star wars) as the backdrop. In fact I am rather annoyed at Star Trek's occasional sanctimoniousness. I prefer to think of the Imperium as being a mixture of bad and good to a varying degree-as being a state like any other. Thus I am not horrified by the space nobility. They are part of life. I do see them endlessly intrigueing. I don't see an "allpowerful conspiracy"-if only because evil people by definition can't trust each other.
Some of the nobles are "noble" in the other sense. And some are evil. And most are in the wide spectrum of "in-betweenness".
The actual influence of the Nobility probably varies as does it's form. Which of course means the game master has a wide latitude.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by jatay3:
Actually I never liked the idea of having a "good empire"(star trek) or a "bad empire"(star wars) as the backdrop. In fact I am rather annoyed at Star Trek's occasional sanctimoniousness. I prefer to think of the Imperium as being a mixture of bad and good to a varying degree-as being a state like any other ....

I am with that sentiment one hundred percent.

I have always seen the nobility and the Imperium as well as the idea of planetary self-government as having both good and bad aspects not easily painted out with wide brushstrokes of good and bad labels.

There are many types of planetary, corporate based, and Imperial nobles performing many roles IMTU. Some are good decent people doing the best for their people with what they have. Others are despotic dogs that deserve nothing but contempt. There are still others that are complex shades of grey doing good perhaps but for some of their own selfish reasons or doing unpopular things for noble reasons.

With anything as vast as the Imperium government and its methods and the people behind its method cannot be seen simply through black and white lenses.

 

[Tucker]

Hey all, being new to the board I'll not contradict anyone just yet. I do take the tack of ACK and jatay3 as far as the Peerage IMC. Whether or not a particular noble is "good" for you is entirely situational.

Granted, I prefer to have them seem annoying dilettantes until the gloves come off...

 

[jatay3]

My point must not be confused. I do believe in a definite good or evil. But I also believe that for all of us, some acts are definitely good and some definitely bad-and some are hard to tell. The "grey" comes from the variance among and within people, not the lack of ultimate good.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
Maybe I'm missing something, but just where does it SAY -- and I don't mean IMPLY, I mean come right out and state flatly -- that ALL Imperial Nobles are "imposed" upon planetary populations from "outside" (which I assume to mean the Emperor)?

Wait for GURPS Traveller Nobles. It will be out in a couple of months and it answers a lot of quiestions and makes a lot of things much clearer.


Hans

 

[LordVince]

Originally posted by rancke:
Wait for GURPS Traveller Nobles. It will be out in a couple of months and it answers a lot of quiestions and makes a lot of things much clearer.

Hans

But then, shouldn't this be the TRUE answer to the first question, which started this entire thread? "Just wait for GURPS Nobles"?

 

[bromdenlong]

OK, this is how I see it.

In the Imperium and Zhodane, the nobility do behave selfishly, but are also strongly indoctrinated from birth with an ethic of 'noblesse oblige'. This is a loyalty and concern for well-being that runs up and down the social order. In Zhodane, this is very consistent - the Thought Police see to it. In the Imperium, it is less consistent, but still very strong. It requires nobles to act in the best interests of the empire, and to treat their citizens/subjects with concern and respect.

I do not say this because goody-goody nobles necessarily appeal to me more in gaming terms, but because all of this would be necessary to keep resentment and rebellion down to a minimum. The rulers of Ancient Egypt kept uneducated serfs under control for thousands of years within a small area, but I can't see keeping an area and well-educated population the size of the Imperium together for thousands of years any other way.

The Zhodani nobles, with their Thought Police, could probably tolerate a higher resentment level in exchange for the emotional gratification of being able to treat commoners like dirt, but why risk it? With human nature being what it is, it's hard to keep any government going for thousands of years. That kind of stability is hard come by. Still, if you want a lot of haughty, cruel, scheming nobles in your game, then it seems to me the Zhodani are more likely candidates. I just don't think the Imperium could afford to tolerate many of them. IMTU, nobles who run around behaving in a consistently unnoble fashion are apt to be upbraided, censured, or even stripped of their title by their immediate superior, or by some Duke (assuming they get caught misbehaving, of course ). This can be appealed, but few appeals are successful.

Of course, if you prefer an Imperium on the verge of collapse from internal corruption, then by all means, have your nobles wallow in intrigue. I happen to prefer an Imperium strong enough to have a fighting chance for survival in the long run.

I see Imperial nobility as being largely, but not entirely, hereditary. This is the easiest and surest way to have future nobles soak up the attitudes of 'noblesse oblige' with their mother's milk.

For worlds that are democracies, humane and decent notions of government are taught in the public schools. Citizens are also taught the advantages of Imperial citizenship, and a sense of Imperial and local patriotism is instilled. High-level elected officials function as non-hereditary Imperial nobility as long as they hold office, and they generally are granted Imperial Knighthood or Baronetcy when they leave office, barring disgrace.

Casey mentioned the Mandarin model. I like it. Instead of having first-born nobles automatically inherit, have the child who can score the highest on a battery of civil-service exams inherit the title. Extra points could be awarded for services performed in the best interest of constituency and empire. This could somewhat alleviate the 'genius parent/cretin offspring' problem inherent in the system, especially if nobles are encouraged or expected to have many children. Passing the same Imperial civil-service exams could be required for elected officials on democratic planets to assume their temporary role as Imperial nobility.

My rank scale for the Imperium is as follows:

12 C Knight
13 D Baronet

14 E Baron
15 F Marquis
16 G Count
17 H local Duke
18 J Planetary Duke
19 K System Duke
20 L Subsector Duke
21 M Sector Duke

22+ various levels of Imperial royalty, but
the sector Dukes answer directly to
the Emperor

Note that these are Imperial ranks. Local ranks may take any form, but the Anglic and Vilani words for the above ranks are reserved for Imperial nobility.

I came up with the notion of shifting the SOC levels and having several levels of Dukes independently, but it certainly isn't original. I've seen this notion somewhere on this board. The point is that only 5 levels of nobility gives each noble too many lower nobles to control - too great a span of command. I also raise Knight up to C because I think it should be harder to get, at least by rolling a standard character. If one specifically wants a noble character to start with, just declare the rank, or create a different scale to roll SOC on.

Since the megacorps are largely owned by nobility and royalty, I don't envision any huge tension between megacorps and the nobility/royalty, per se. Nor do I see any huge tension between the nobility and the royal family, per se. They need each other to keep the system stable. Ducal families might be coopted into the extended royal family to strengthen and broaden the bloodline, but what they gained in wealth, they would lose in political power, as the Sector Dukes are really the height of power, apart from the Emperor and his/her spouse. So I don't really see Dukes clamoring to get into the royal family - they'd be starting at the bottom again, in a way.

I also don't assume that all megacorps are utterly without conscience. Some may do many good works, support vast charities, etc. Perhaps they are generally more concerned with higher-tech peoples. Some might also be more concerned with maintaining stable eco-systems, especially on worlds where they harvest biological products that are not easily or affordably produced agriculturally or in a laboratory.

It may be more fun to play rapacious megacorps, but remember that most are centuries or millenia old, and presumably a little better at thinking in the long term than 20th century earth corporations. The Imperium is running out of frontier, and is surrounded by tough neighbors, and knows it had better not waste resources.

The canon reasons for a system to join the Imperium, or to stay in it, have already been mentioned - communal defense, trade, and local autonomy. Of these, I think local autonomy has been underemphasized here. Border worlds are likely to have more local autonomy with the Imperium than with the Zhodani and their Thought Police, or with the Solomani and their Solsec. The Imperium also seems from the canon to be less racist/speciesist than any of its neighbors, and that has to work to their advantage.

The Imperium could also use a carrot/stick policy with desireable border worlds.

"Join us voluntarily, and we'll help you raise your technology to the level you desire while helping you maintain the aspects of your society you want to keep. Refuse us, and we'll let the megacorps and their mercenaries have their way with you, we'll absorb you anyway, and any local autonomy you ever see will be long in coming."

The argument that the real power lies with the worlds with the big Imperial depot fleets doesn't make sense to me. Those fleets are not manned or financed primarily by locals. Imagine, if you will, the Governor of California trying to take over Camp Pendleton using CA National Guard troops. "Governator" or not, they'd get their heads handed to them on a plate, complete with a side of macaroni and parsley garnish.

 

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
After reading a few posts, I figured I'd take a stab at this...

Someone asked "What's the benefit of joining the Imperium" while another said "lets go back to the beginning". I rather like those two questions

Starting at the beginning: Based on Milleu Zero, Cleon the First decided that he was going to do away with what he perceived to be a major flaw within his own Sylean Federation - to wit, it was a federation that didn't get things done quickly when it was needed. Assuming that Cleon had access to historians, political scientists, as well as other "advisors", it would appear that he settled upon a system very early on - that of fuedalism.
So why would he make that system the system of choice? As someone suggested, lets look at the beginning. When a noble took his lands - it was given to him on the basis that the King owned the land to give. In other words, Cleon had to have laid claim to a large expanse of territory before he can offer a person a noble grant. But lets look at a few things more closely. The land grants and grants of nobility were based on the premise that the person who took that grant owed service. He owed service to those above him, and he owed service to those below him. It wasn't just military service that was owed - it was also social service. It was administrative duty coupled with military duty that permitted the Knight and/or Lords to retain their lands.
So what does the common citizen gain from this "structure"? The nobles are the interface between their "Local" environment and the Highest Official of the Imperium. Instead of having elected officials all gathered round a table (a federated round table?) arguing who should do what, when, and why - we have nobles who are entrusted to act on behalf of the Emperor in the Emperor's best interest as well as the local best interest - providing they do not clash (the interests that is). I hear "so? Why would a citizen benefit from giving up authority to a noble?". The citizen himself does NOT benefit. The government of the world where the citizen resides however, does. The world government benefits in that they don't have to maintain a larger military against the more "dangerous" worlds - worlds with a higher population and/or industrial base and/or Technological base and/or military base. The governments are given the surity that a ubergovernment will not take over and interfere with internal affairs. The Emperor will not tell worlds "ok, taxes have just been raised 300% this year just cuz I said so".
So what kinds of power does a noble have in the Imperium? He has the power of simple politics. Those that have money use money for their own ends. Those who have political power to say yea or nay - use that power to achive their goals as they see fit. Ultimately however, if it can be proven that a Noble has committed treason against his liege - said noble can be relieved of his lands. If a noble is incompetent - accidents do happen and children do assume the mantle their now deceased fathers/mothers held.

People like to assume that each world's government is invisible, and that the Imperium's government governs all. It doesn't. If a world decides that its citizens may not leave without an exit visa, its citizens can't leave! If a world decides that all blonde haired women and/or men must be sterilized - there isn't a thing the Imperium can do to stop that government. Not legally anyhow.

What other protections are involved for the "citizens"? Trade protections? A government - the LOCAL government determines what goods are legal there or not, so the citizen has no protection there. Legal protections? If it is an internal matter, the citizen can't appeal to the Imperial government. The citizen can however expect that Imperial laws will be applied at the Starport. Ultimately, the citizen of any member world is first and foremost, a citizen of said world. He is a supporter of the "upper crust" only because his government at some point in time bought into the "Imperial Government" game.

Ok, so what does the Emperor get out of this? Accountability for one. He also gets reports from his "underlings" when a world gets out of line. He gets a buffer between the local worlds and his upper echelon of government where the locals are expected to solve the easy stuff. Best of all? He doesn't have to work within a federated government that protects its beuracrats. He has direct hands on control.

 

[jatay3]

I would prefer a medium. They don't "wallow" in intrigue-but they certainly dip their toes in it a lot.
It would often resemble the English nobilty and upper middle class (squires, merchants, etc) sinse Elizabeth. That is they would have both their family honor, and a good deal of their mundane interests in the state and society(if the empereor is wise he will make sure of that)as a whole. In fact the "smaller" nobles would be something of a foundation for the Imperium. They are less able to compete with the big-timers, so they would compete for Imperial favor. Of course they might want favor from lower but closer nobles. A tradition would develop of service as is indeed hinted at-traditions are more powerful than one might assume.
This is not conterdictory to having ruthless intrigue. No society lives up to it's ideals. Or person for that matter. That doesn't mean the ideals are meaningless. Or even that those who fail are necessarily hypocrites.
Most of the intrigue will take place among the bigger players. I say this not because I think there is anything evil with being a "big player"-wealth in itself is simply material. However the big players would be more inclined to work independently because of their ability to do so.
There would be other factors. The descendants of a house that attained it's power from loyalty to the Imperium, would have a different outlook than one that was a pocket empire that got it's power by selling it's independance dearly(in gold, power, influence,and sometimes in blood)and thus forcing a compromise that included a title. A house that is closer to the Zhos might feel more loyalty to the Imperium because of it's need for protection. Or less loyalty because of it's ability to be independant.
Finnally certain jobs would be restricted to the elite and certain jobs would be "beneeth" them. In the eighteenth century Nobles could only be landholders,government workers, clergy, high status professionals,or scientists and philosophers. A noble who did anything else was an excentric. In the Imperium,few Nobles are Starports,Scouts,or Marines-despite the prestiege of the last two. Of course,Aslan nobles would love the Marines-which adds yet another factor.
The Imperium might assure loyalty by reviving the barbaric custom of "hostages". In the old days it was a family member. The Imperium might prefer not to do that kind of thing openly. A substitute might be some sort of family treasure that is valued for sentimental or practical reasons.This alone would not work for thousands of years. It is part of a network of favors, debts, traditions, and straightforward carrot& stick incentives that hold the Imperium together.

 

[alanb]

I've always considered the following (from England, 1278) to be how the nobility really works, once all the nonsense, legalisms and polite language are cut away:

Earl Warenne was called before the king's judges. The judges asked to see his warrant (documents that proved that he owned his land)... he produced an ancient and rusty sword and said: "Look at this, my lords, this is my warrant! For my ancestors came with William and conquered their lands with the sword, and by the sword I will defend them from anyone intending to seize them. The king did not conquer and subject the land by himself, but our forebears were sharers and partners with him."

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Lord Vince:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
Wait for GURPS Traveller Nobles. It will be out in a couple of months and it answers a lot of quiestions and makes a lot of things much clearer.

Hans

But then, shouldn't this be the TRUE answer to the first question, which started this entire thread? "Just wait for GURPS Nobles"? </font>[/QUOTE]Since the original question was something like "How does nobles work in your TU?", I'd have to say no to that.


Hans

 

[Straybow]

Rank, titles and honorifics IMTU.

11 B Knight vestiture¹ (non-hereditary)
12 C Baronette² (non-hereditary)
13 D Knight¹ (hereditary)/ planetary peer³
14 E Baron² (hereditary)/ planetary royal³
15 F Viscount (Count/Countess)
16 G Earl (Count/Countess)
17 H Marquess (Marquis/Marchioness)
18 J Duke (Duke/Dutchess)
19 K Archduke*
20 L Prince*

¹ Honorific Sir/Dame does not distinguish hereditary knighthood from vestiture
² Honorific Lord/Lady does not distinguish hereditary title from non-hereditary
³ Use honorific of planetary title preceded by genetive planet/nation (Regina Baron, French Marchioness, etc)
* Members of Imperial royal family only

Planetary rulers are typically Dukes, Princes, or Kings. Some may be called Emperor, although presumably only by tradition predating interstellar contact.

Baron is also the title of non-inheriting children of ranks F-J. Their actual Soc may be 1 rank below their family rank, or perhaps lower if the family is minor.

Baron does not add "von" to the name, "von" means "from" and is used to distinguish fiefdoms in a Germanic language to avoid confusion among common surnames. It is considered pretentious to assume the "von" in Anglic, etc. Why this would be adopted by the Vilani/Syleans is questionable, but if they like it who are we to say otherwise.

Our dear Baron should be: Baron Saarthuran Gushiddan. He does not become von (something) until he is given a fiefdom, although he may be introduced in a high society function as von Sidur Haski in case others do not know his family line. His father is Baron Yaanluthaar Gushiddan von Sidur Haski, and his sister is Baroness Givannishaar Gushiddan von Zirthu Ghi, as fief-holder of that satellite. His mother could use either her husband's fief or her paternal family's fief in her name, depending on what emphasis she wants to convey.

 

[Duke]

Nobility in the Nobility?

I didn't have time to read all of the threads, so this may have already been stated, but... You will find many different types of nobles good, bad and indifferent. The truth is that in other than small populations, some form of organized government is necessary. The larger the population, the more complex the government.
Due to vast differences, a pure democracy is out of the question. It also makes it difficult for a republic. If there is going to be a vast interstellar government, fuedalism is as good as any. Let's face it, where there is governing body, there is possibility for abuse of power.