Nobility

[tjoneslo]

As part of the latest T5 Second Survey data updates, and the Trade Map generation, I added code to count the number nobles in the Imperium according to Nobility. Since every member of the nobility listed here above the rank of Knight is also a member of the Moot, we now know the moot consists of 5,999 seats.

Sector	Knight	Baronets	Barons	Marquis	Vicount	Count	Dukes	Subsector Duke	Archduke
Alpha Crucis	77	5	13	12	8	10	4	1
Antares	460	61	94	49	41	51	14	11	1
Core	546	88	104	59	55	76	26	16	1
Corridor	203	26	30	22	24	14	6	7
Dagudashaag	558	68	77	50	54	42	9	15
Daibei	422	44	67	51	34	28	4	11
Delphi	288	30	38	33	21	28	4	4
Deneb	323	31	50	31	26	22	5	5
Diaspora	460	49	80	57	44	39	5	14	1
Empty Quarter	132	17	31	7	14	14	1	4
Fornast	499	69	88	54	53	30	5	12
Glimmerdrift Reaches	41	2	7	2	2	3	2	2
Gushemege	515	73	102	30	47	36	6	13
Hinterworlds	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Ilelish	450	71	79	49	44	77	24	12	1
Ley Sector	311	45	65	38	31	25	7	8	1
Lishun	552	66	107	66	56	51	5	13
Magyar	125	15	16	17	27	18	0	3
Massilia	515	64	95	66	53	46	13	15
Old Expanses	384	42	92	63	57	59	32	16
Reaver's Deep	54	9	19	6	5	8	2	2
Reft	86	9	13	3	3	6	0	2
Solomani Rim	303	52	42	52	62	100	31	11
Spinward Marches	250	33	53	20	24	27	9	7
Trojan Reach	55	6	12	5	5	9	2	2
Verge	200	29	39	17	13	17	1	5
Vland	491	52	98	48	40	60	8	10	1
Zarushagar	478	71	104	53	45	31	17	13
Totals	8780	1127	1615	960	888	927	242	234	6

 

[MCEvans]

If I recall (& could be totally mistaken) but not all Barons & Baronets are members of the Moot as these are Honor or positional titles.
So the Moot membership could be less, as much as 2742 less, so with a total of 3257.
Either way even with members holding proxy voting blocks that is a large and unwieldily group of people.

BTW Nice chart, very informative

 

[rancke]

Isn't that just the high nobles? With an additional unspecified number of honor nobles?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

The data listed for the Noble Extensions [Nx] for worlds in T5 (and hence on TravellerMap [T5SS Data]) is explicitly the Landed (or High) Nobles for the world. It does not count honor, legacy, local-planetary, or ceremonial/rank nobility.

All of the members (except Knights) listed above are Moot-members under T5. Older rulesets would have excluded the Baronets as well.

 

[tjoneslo]

Isn't that just the high nobles? With an additional unspecified number of honor nobles?

Correct. The T5SS data includes only the High nobles. But it would include all the Barons/Baronets who do sit on the Moot.

At a wild guess I would assume an equal number of High and Honor nobles, giving another 6000 or so. Sounds like a lot, but this small fraction of a percent is the ruling class of 10 trillion sophonts.

 

[rancke]

Correct. The T5SS data includes only the High nobles. But it would include all the Barons/Baronets who do sit on the Moot.

How do you figure that? Are honor barons and baronets not peers?

At a wild guess I would assume an equal number of High and Honor nobles, giving another 6000 or so. Sounds like a lot, but this small fraction of a percent is the ruling class of 10 trillion sophonts.

My wild guess is several honor nobles per high noble among barons and marquesses, less than that for counts, and relatively few honor dukes.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

How do you figure that? Are honor barons and baronets not peers?

I will cite Imperialines issue 7, p. 4

Unlike Honor Nobility and most Ceremonial Nobles, all Landed Nobles above the rank of Knight also hold a seat in the Moot.

According to the T5 Rules, p 404, the items counted in the table above are the Landed nobles assigned to each world.

And according to the T5 rules, p 68, Landed Nobles of Baronet or above hold votes (hence a seat) in the moot.

So that count gets 5,999 members of the Moot.

Imperialined issue 7, p. 4 again:

Ceremonial Nobles hold a position within the power structure of the Imperium that does not involve direct control or responsibility over a world or worlds

The text goes on to explain that high ranking members of the Imperial Bureaucracy are given ceremonial titles to ensure they have standing with the rest of the Nobility in order to do their jobs.

I'll have to compare that to GT:Nobles.

 

[rancke]

I will cite Imperialines issue 7, p. 4

[...]

[...]

I see. It seems a harmless enough change. I don't see the point of it, though, but perhaps I will in time.

Presumably very few of these Moot members will actually be present in the Moot Spire, right? They'll be too busy doing their job back home on 'their' worlds? Or is it the other way around, they'll spend most of their time on Capital and little of it back 'home'?

The text goes on to explain that high ranking members of the Imperial Bureaucracy are given ceremonial titles to ensure they have standing with the rest of the Nobility in order to do their jobs.

Yes, that's the third kind of Imperial noble, the rank nobles. Though I've always assumed that high ranking members of the Bureaucracy would predominantly be recruited from the honor nobles, moderate competency being enough for nobles while commoners would have to be exceptionally gifted.

I'll have to compare that to GT:Nobles.

Nobles expands on the old CT essay about nobles, but it doesn't really change it. Just refines it.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

Presumably very few of these Moot members will actually be present in the Moot Spire, right? They'll be too busy doing their job back home on 'their' worlds? Or is it the other way around, they'll spend most of their time on Capital and little of it back 'home'?

Neither the essay in Imperialines nor the rules in T5 make that clear. The T5 rules make is clear you can get paid 100KCr per year per vote for staying away, in addition to the income from the holdings. But that's to encourage the PC's to have money for adventures, not play politics.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yea, money!

Neither the essay in Imperialines nor the rules in T5 make that clear. The T5 rules make is clear you can get paid 100KCr per year per vote for staying away, in addition to the income from the holdings. But that's to encourage the PC's to have money for adventures, not play politics.

True that KCr 100/Vote is nice and yes it does give one adventuring money, but if you do want to play politics you roll for Proxies. Love them Proxies.

 

[rancke]

Neither the essay in Imperialines nor the rules in T5 make that clear. The T5 rules make is clear you can get paid 100KCr per year per vote for staying away, in addition to the income from the holdings.

Yeah, I don't buy it. An Imperial high noble would earn a lot more than what the rules say. But that's a different problem and a different discussion -- one that we've had elsewhere.

At least we can deduce that the Moot is completely without any influence on Imperial day-to-day affairs. Otherwise you'd get a lot more for for a vote (If the Moot influenced the spending of even a small slice of the Imperial budget, a vote would be about handling trillions of credits). Who commands how many votes must be purely a matter of prestige.

EDIT: And not such a lot of prestige either. The Imperium's greatest nobles would be multi-trillionaires (or more) and the going rate is only Cr100,000?!? Apparently only the pikers are buying. Cr100,000 corresponds more or less to half a million dollars. Imagine the five richest people on Cognate Earth¹ were eligible to buy votes and one came up for sale. What sort of price do you think it could fetch?

¹ A theoretical world very much like present-day Earth except it is part of the Classic Era Imperium.​

But that's to encourage the PC's to have money for adventures, not play politics.

To me that's not really the problem. If you want your PCs to have adventures, simply don't allow them to roll up Imperial noble titles and the problem goes away. To me the problem is the world-building aspects.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

EDIT: And not such a lot of prestige either. The Imperium's greatest nobles would be multi-trillionaires (or more) and the going rate is only Cr100,000?!? Apparently only the pikers are buying. Cr100,000 corresponds more or less to half a million dollars. Imagine the five richest people on Cognate Earth¹ were eligible to buy votes and one came up for sale. What sort of price do you think it could fetch?

¹ A theoretical world very much like present-day Earth except it is part of the Classic Era Imperium.​

Hans

I think you are considering this from the wrong viewpoint. If you get paid x for staying away, how much do you get paid for actually going and voting?

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I think you are considering this from the wrong viewpoint. If you get paid x for staying away, how much do you get paid for actually going and voting?

Kind Regards

David

Reconsidered this and my idea is wrong. The payment is clearly to encourage Nobles to stay and work at their duty station rather than spend years away attending the Moot in person.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

I think you are considering this from the wrong viewpoint. If you get paid x for staying away, how much do you get paid for actually going and voting?

Kind Regards

David

You're overlooking the crucial point:

"If the Moot influenced the spending of even a small slice of the Imperial budget, a vote would be about handling trillions of credits."​

To elaborate on this line of thought:

If the Moot handles trillions of credits, any influence on how that money is spent would be worth billions.

If votes cost Cr100,000 apiece, a controlling block of votes in that 6000 member Moot would cost MCr300. Less than a third of a single billion.

It follows that the influence of the Moot on Imperial affairs must involve much less than trillions.

Q.E.D.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Reconsidered this and my idea is wrong. The payment is clearly to encourage Nobles to stay and work at their duty station rather than spend years away attending the Moot in person.

Cr100,000 would be (or at least ought to be) a mere pittance for most landed nobles.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A question just occurred to me. How does a PC get an honor or rank title? Is that everyone who doesn't join the Nobles career? And if it is, what private lands and fortunes do PCs get out of honor and rank titles? Nothing whatsoever?


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

You're overlooking the crucial point:

"If the Moot influenced the spending of even a small slice of the Imperial budget, a vote would be about handling trillions of credits."​

To elaborate on this line of thought:

If the Moot handles trillions of credits, any influence on how that money is spent would be worth billions.

If votes cost Cr100,000 apiece, a controlling block of votes in that 6000 member Moot would cost MCr300. Less than a third of a single billion.

It follows that the influence of the Moot on Imperial affairs must involve much less than trillions.

But we already know that. The Moot, technically, has no power to influence Imperial policy. It can issue recommendations which the Emperor is free to accept or ignore at his leisure.

The ceremonial nobility (which T5 mostly excludes from the Moot, and GT:Nobles calls Rank nobility and includes in the Moot) and are tasked with implementing the Emperor's policy undoubtedly have more influence over the where the trillions of credits of the Imperial budget is spent than does the Moot.

I think, though can't find a specific reference, the Imperial budget rarely gets decided beyond the Sector level, and usually only at the Subsector level. At the domain level or the Emperor would receive a summary of the budget(s) and send a set of recommendations. But the specific details of who gets X credits for running program Y is done at the (Sub)sector level, and is controlled by the local Duke.

GT:Nobles (p.72) has a detailed description of Proxies. I suspect that the major duty of the Honor nobles (who don't have much else to do) is to serve as Proxies in the Moot.

 

[rancke]

But we already know that. The Moot, technically, has no power to influence Imperial policy. It can issue recommendations which the Emperor is free to accept or ignore at his leisure.

But we didn't know for sure that the Emperor didn't use the nobles of the Moot to help him draft legislation. It was always a possibility that their Moot duties were purely ceremonial, but only a possibility. This may now be considered a fact.

The ceremonial nobility (which T5 mostly excludes from the Moot, and GT:Nobles calls Rank nobility and includes in the Moot) and are tasked with implementing the Emperor's policy undoubtedly have more influence over the where the trillions of credits of the Imperial budget is spent than does the Moot.

I've always assumed that rank nobles were a fairly small segment of the nobility. (See below).

GT:Nobles (p.72) has a detailed description of Proxies. I suspect that the major duty of the Honor nobles (who don't have much else to do) is to serve as Proxies in the Moot.

I've always seen the honor nobles as a crucial part of the Imperial organization. The high nobles all have jobs to go with their titles: To represent the Imperium to their respective member worlds and to act as ombudsmen. The honor nobles would be the major "labor pool", the group from which the Emperor and the ministries and the dukes preferred to draw their people: Bureauctats and diplomats and such. To hold down a job in the Imperial administration, an honor noble just has to be averagely competent. Commoners have to be exceptionally competent to rise to the top of the bureaucracy (and get rank titles).

(In case I wasn't clear: This is all my opinions, not canon).


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

I've always seen the honor nobles as a crucial part of the Imperial organization. The high nobles all have jobs to go with their titles: To represent the Imperium to their respective member worlds and to act as ombudsmen. The honor nobles would be the major "labor pool", the group from which the Emperor and the ministries and the dukes preferred to draw their people: Bureauctats and diplomats and such. To hold down a job in the Imperial administration, an honor noble just has to be averagely competent. Commoners have to be exceptionally competent to rise to the top of the bureaucracy (and get rank titles).

I think you have that backwards:

Imperiallies 7: (p.4)

Honor Nobles are those with no set function within the
Imperium. They are simply noble by acclamation...
[and] are expected to gain one of those positions [Ceremonial or Landed position] when the time is right

GT: Nobles (P. 13)

Honor Nobles have no specific governmental responsibility; their titles are only social distinction.

I would think the Rank/Ceremonial nobles would be a largest group of nobility in the Imperium. GT:Nobles (p.12) describes them as being responsible for running the bureaucracy. The same page states the preferred method is to convert an existing title (say Honor Baron to Rank Baron) than create a new one.

Imperiallies 7 (p. 4):

The specific positions and associated noble titles vary somewhat from sector to sector, but generally mirror the scope of the Landed Nobility.

GT:Nobles describes 9 ministries (Defense, High Command, Justice, State, Colonization, Commerce, Conservation, Information, and Technology). If Imperillines is correct (GT: Nobles doesn't describe how many nobles there are), it implies a total of 50,000 to 70,000 Ceremonial/Rank nobles divided between the ministries and scattered through the Imperium.

Another way to look at it would be to assume a regular pace of creating 50 to 100 new Nobles per year (split between the Ceremonial/Rank and Honor nobles), over the lifetime of the Imperium you end up with 50,000 to 100,000 noble titles of various ranks.

These numbers are made up, but I can't find anything in the text of either document to contradict them.

 

[rancke]

I think you have that backwards:

Imperiallies 7: (p.4)

Honor Nobles are those with no set function within the Imperium. They are simply noble by acclamation...
[and] are expected to gain one of those positions [Ceremonial or Landed position] when the time is right

GT: Nobles (P. 13)

Honor Nobles have no specific governmental responsibility; their titles are only social distinction.

I would think the Rank/Ceremonial nobles would be a largest group of nobility in the Imperium. GT:Nobles (p.12) describes them as being responsible for running the bureaucracy. The same page states the preferred method is to convert an existing title (say Honor Baron to Rank Baron) than create a new one.

Imperiallies 7 (p. 4):

The specific positions and associated noble titles vary somewhat from sector to sector, but generally mirror the scope of the Landed Nobility.

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that rank nobles were described as those few commoners who needed a title (because of the rule that certain governmental positions required the holder to have a given noble title as a minimum). The point of a rank title is that it's given to a commoner and that it's usually a life title.

I think you've misread what GT: Nobles says about rank nobles.

...rank nobles hold their titles to enable them to serve in a specific position.

A minimum noble rank is required for many senior positions in the Imperial government (see Position and Rank, p. 70). If a commoner or a nobleman who doesn't already hold sufficient rank is placed in such a position, he is granted a new title of rank so that he can qualify for it.

Such promotions are not common¹. If anyone with the required title is available and qualified for the position, he is almost always selected in preference to issuing a new noble title. Also, if a promotion must be made, a small one is preferred to a large one -- an office requiring viscount's rank is likely to be filled by someone who is already a marquis, not by someone with no noble title at all.

¹ Emphasis mine.​

It seems to me that ceremonial titles are not quite the same as rank titles. There would be no need to give an honor noble a rank title unless he was appointed to a position that required a greater noble rank than his own and that would be quite rare.


Hans