Nobility

[tjoneslo]

I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that rank nobles were described as those few commoners who needed a title (because of the rule that certain governmental positions required the holder to have a given noble title as a minimum). The point of a rank title is that it's given to a commoner and that it's usually a life title.

It seems to me that ceremonial titles are not quite the same as rank titles. There would be no need to give an honor noble a rank title unless he was appointed to a position that required a greater noble rank than his own and that would be quite rare.

The question is if you are an Honor Noble Baron. That is without any position in the government, but Baron none the less. And now you are asked to join e.g. the Ministry of Defense in a position requiring your title as Baron. Are you still an Honor Noble, or have you become a Rank Noble? As the text says you, as Baron, would be considered over any lesser rank or commoner assuming a minimal level competence.

My reading of that text is there may be a fair number of conversions from Honor to Rank nobles, without too many promotions. Over the centuries, you don't need too many promotions

And neither much discuss the process of going the other direction. That is, the child which inherits a title, but not the position in government. If they never take the position, does this mean they've become Honor nobles?

If either or both are true it means the distinction between Honor and Rank, at least for subsequent generations is not a strict one.

 

[rancke]

The question is if you are an Honor Noble Baron. That is without any position in the government, but Baron none the less. And now you are asked to join e.g. the Ministry of Defense in a position requiring your title as Baron. Are you still an Honor Noble, or have you become a Rank Noble?

According to how I read that p. 12, you're still an honor noble. If you were an honor baronet, you'd get a rank barony, making you an honor baronet and a rank baron.

My reading of that text is there may be a fair number of conversions from Honor to Rank nobles, without too many promotions. Over the centuries, you don't need too many promotions.

I read it to mean that there is no conversions from honor to rank. Any rank titles given to an honor noble would be on top of his honor title(s).

And neither much discuss the process of going the other direction. That is, the child which inherits a title, but not the position in government. If they never take the position, does this mean they've become Honor nobles?

What else? They're not high nobles and they're not rank nobles; so they must be the third of the three kinds of noble.

(All this is prior to the T5 retcon of nobles.)


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

And neither much discuss the process of going the other direction. That is, the child which inherits a title, but not the position in government. If they never take the position, does this mean they've become Honor nobles?

What else? They're not high nobles and they're not rank nobles; so they must be the third of the three kinds of noble.

I believe this is what GT:Nobles considers a Local Noble, which is one of the two subsets of Rank Noble: 1) Rank (Administrator), and 2) Rank (Local).

GT:Nobles, p.12 (under Rank Nobles):

Local Nobility
Every time someone is promoted to high Imperial office and given a new hereditary title of rank, a new noble family is created. The rank noble’s descendants inherit the title, but in most cases do not hold a similar high office. Over the centuries, such noble titles have proliferated in all parts of the Imperium, creating a population of low-ranking nobles without fiefs or significant government responsibilities. These local nobles actually make up the majority of the Imperial aristocracy.

A local noble has no guaranteed role in the Imperial system, although he may take on the job of Imperial Legate for his home world. This is an official title that carries few specific duties; it designates an official who watches out for Imperial interests on a given world, and sometimes acts as an advocate for that world before the Imperial government. Not every Imperial Legate is a noble, but many of them are.

A local noble is automatically eligible for some government positions that require a title. Many local nobles enter Imperial service in their youth so that they can enter high office late in their careers. As a result, most observers of the Imperial aristocracy consider local nobles part of the rank nobility, whether they currently hold high office or not.

 

[rancke]

I believe this is what GT:Nobles considers a Local Noble, which is one of the two subsets of Rank Noble: 1) Rank (Administrator), and 2) Rank (Local).

GT:Nobles, p.12 (under Rank Nobles):

Hum. Apparently I never read that bit. And I don't see the logic. It seems to me that local nobles, being appointed by local governments, would have no connection whatsoever to do with the Imperial nobility, except for the relative rank that would come from being part of the planetary elite due to the transitivity of rank. Formally they would be completely separate systems. Now, the Imperium might be in the habit of conferring a marquisate on the Lord High Panjandrum of Marlarkey and baronies on his lord controllers and baronetcies and knighthoods on lesser nobles of Marlarkey. Or the duchy of Mora on the Matriarch of Mora, to mention a canonical example. But that wouldn't make panjandrums and controllers of Marlarkey and matriarchs of Mora Imperial titles, high, honor, or rank.

Wait. I reread the text and what is called 'local nobles' here appear to me to be typical examples of honor nobles (and not local nobles at all). Those many people who consider them rank nobles have obviously misunderstood what is meant by the term.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Hum. Apparently I never read that bit. And I don't see the logic. It seems to me that local nobles, being appointed by local governments, would have no connection whatsoever to do with the Imperial nobility, except for the relative rank that would come from being part of the planetary elite due to the transitivity of rank. Formally they would be completely separate systems. Now, the Imperium might be in the habit of conferring a marquisate on the Lord High Panjandrum of Marlarkey and baronies on his lord controllers and baronetcies and knighthoods on lesser nobles of Marlarkey. Or the duchy of Mora on the Matriarch of Mora, to mention a canonical example. But that wouldn't make panjandrums and controllers of Marlarkey and matriarchs of Mora Imperial titles, high, honor, or rank.

Wait. I reread the text and what is called 'local nobles' here appear to me to be typical examples of honor nobles (and not local nobles at all). Those many people who consider them rank nobles have obviously misunderstood what is meant by the term.

GT:Nobles uses the separate term "Planetary Nobles" for these:

GT:Nobles, p.83ff

PLANETARY NOBILITY
Individual worlds within the Third Imperium often have their own systems of aristocracy, distinct from the Imperial system. The main difference between the two is that planetary nobles lack the social standing and power held by Imperial nobles. A few planetary nobles have wealth and political power on a par with the Imperial aristocracy, but most do not.
.
.
.
RANK AND TITLES
The variety of local planetary titles is enormous, and while there is some repetition, there are thousands of variations on a few basic themes. A wide variety of hierarchies also exist, with great disparity at the individual world level. Most local systems take the names for their titles from less well-known Solomani or Vilani models, sometimes modifying them to suit local needs.

Planetary nobles are prohibited from using the same titles as the Imperial nobility, to avoid confusion. This restriction applies to the Galanglic and Vilani titles only – a world may translate the Imperial titles into any other language, if desired. A common solution is to add “Parochial” as a prefix to the official title – for example, “Parochial Archduke” for someone who holds the title of archduke in a local system of aristocracy. This prefix is usually dropped in everyday usage, and is only used explicitly on state occasions or when there are Imperial nobles present.

Planetary nobles may also hold Imperial titles in addition to their local titles.

LOCAL TITLES
A world which uses its own titles of nobility may use titles from any language or culture, provided there is no possibility of confusion with the Imperial titles. The ruler of a world may call himself Tsar or Kaiser without repercussions (although it may seem a little pretentious). This is not the same as the practice, prevalent in some regions, of using different languages for Imperial titles (p. 30).

 

[whulorigan]

Hum. Apparently I never read that bit. And I don't see the logic.

I think the logic was to create a rationale for the number of player characters who have titles of nobility (either by inheritance or reward), but without necessarily giving them the commensurate responsibilities or and/or wealth that one would normally associate with noble titles.

 

[rancke]

I think the logic was to create a rationale for the number of player characters who have titles of nobility (either by inheritance or reward), but without necessarily giving them the commensurate responsibilities or and/or wealth that one would normally associate with noble titles.

No, I meant, I don't see the logic of calling them rank nobles. Or local nobles for that matter. It seems to me to be archtypical examples of honor nobles. Inherited nobility other than high nobles. If that isn't the definition of an honor noble then I don't know what the definition is. Can anyone provide it?

Mind you, I don't see the logic of impecunious Imperial nobles either. An unemployed honor noble should be able to parlay being one of the Imperium's 60,000¹ highest ranking people (that's one in 250 million, folks) into sponsoring enough companies and organizations to get lots and lots of independent income for little or no work.

(Also, most honor nobles ought to have sizable personal estates accumulated by their ancestors.)

¹ Or 5999, if you like. That's even better.​

Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I do not get this.

I think the logic was to create a rationale for the number of player characters who have titles of nobility (either by inheritance or reward), but without necessarily giving them the commensurate responsibilities or and/or wealth that one would normally associate with noble titles.

I do not understand this need to keep players from playing like actual Nobles who do in fact do the job. Why not have them be responsible for their Holdings and have them actually run things?

Sure, it is a bit of work for the Ref, but it gives the players a chance to actually affect the world they play in as opposed to just being background color.

 

[GypsyComet]

To the Imperium, most Planetary Nobles would be a subset of Honor Nobility, in that they have no Imperial functions. To their homeworld they are Ceremonial or High/Landed nobles, because they are performing local functions within government or even ruling the place.

I'd think it might not be uncommon on worlds with a certain type of government that Imperial nobility that emerges from the population might also be given Planetary titles. This will depend on their original standing on that world and the degree of insularity its noble class wishes to maintain.

There are, of course, extreme cases. Mora appears to be one of them. There are likely others. With noble titles originating from the reign of every Emperor, and some noble families pre-dating the Imperium by centuries or more, the specific circumstances across time and the regions of the Imperium should vary immensely. Some get ironed out through marriage or misstep, while other eccentrics remain.

 

[GypsyComet]

I do not understand this need to keep players from playing like actual Nobles who do in fact do the job. Why not have them be responsible for their Holdings and have them actually run things?

This is great for a specific type of campaign, but it shapes that campaign in ways that do not suit everyone. Playing Remittance Men, third sons of old war heroes, and retired high functionaries has a bit more potential for random walk travelling.

 

[rancke]

To the Imperium, most Planetary Nobles would be a subset of Honor Nobility, in that they have no Imperial functions.

But they do have an Imperial function. The earlier text explicitly states that they are preferred to commoners when an Imperial position has to be filled. They are, as I've said before, the main labor pool for high positions in the Imperial administration and services.

It's true that any honor noble who prefers a life in idle luxury can choose (fortune permitting) not to accept any Imperial position, but that doesn't change their rank.

To their homeworld they are Ceremonial or High/Landed nobles, because they are performing local functions within government or even ruling the place.

Or they are members of the local jet set.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

No, I meant, I don't see the logic of calling them rank nobles. Or local nobles for that matter. It seems to me to be archtypical examples of honor nobles. Inherited nobility other than high nobles. If that isn't the definition of an honor noble then I don't know what the definition is.

I think the "Local" Noble fits better under the Honor Noble category as well.

In T5, (based on the Imperiallines #7 Article), "Legacy" Nobility (which seems to be roughly equivalent to the Honor Nobles as described above) are lumped under Honor Nobles.

 

[rancke]

I do not understand this need to keep players from playing like actual Nobles who do in fact do the job. Why not have them be responsible for their Holdings and have them actually run things?

Nothing at all, but that's not going to be a typical Traveller campaign. Not a free trader campaign, not a mercenary campaign, and not... well, what else is typical for Traveller campaigns?


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

It would be the clever thing to do for the Imperium to co-opt powerful local families by conferring and/or confirming and reinforcing their status and land rights through ennobling them.

 

[GypsyComet]

It would be the clever thing to do for the Imperium to co-opt powerful local families by conferring and/or confirming and reinforcing their status and land rights through ennobling them.

How the early Imperium was built, in many cases. While that period of exploration and integration, not to mention a few wars, would also have produced genuine Heroes of the Imperium to create and elevate to their potentials, more than a few local rulers would have been told that they got to be nobility in a much larger state (the Imperium) and still get to rule at home.

The practice would be rarer by Strephon's day, but you'll still find local rulers or exemplary functionaries quietly invited to join the Imperial nobility if they've played their first careers right. In many cases they would be elevated with some crisis handling or position in mind, but in the mean time they are simply Honorable Nobility. Once you've appeared on the Birthday List and the local Duke has you on his vetted list of troubleshooters, however, the call might come at any time...

 

[Cryton]

On this subject, I can only chime in on how I have handled the subject in play IMTU. I use a very "proto-Traveller" view on Nobles

High Nobles are 3I Imperial Nobles. They are the representatives of the 3I to a given world, they have votes in the moot, and only actually rule over the Starport, their Fief on the world (if that's where its located in system), any Imperial interests that may be located in system (Navy and Scout bases, ect.) and in effect everything in the system that's more than 100D from the world they are assigned to. In other words, what is defined as 3I by the game setting in the system. These are some of the biggest power players in the game, as while they can not tell your planet how to run itself, they can cut your world off from all outside contact should you fail to follow the few 3I rules or pay your 3I taxes.

Local Nobles are those who hold title on a world and are often part of the local government(s). Their authority ends where it meets the 3I (100D form their planet and where it concerns Imperial holdings on the world). These are the heads of state of various countries on a given world, and in their sphere of influence can be quite powerful.

Honor Nobles are those who have been awarded a title and patent of nobility by the 3I for service or accomplishments, or as recognition of whom their parents are. Most are 3I Nobles who have yet to be assigned to represent the 3I to any world, and as such they lack votes in the Moot, Lands or any real authority aside from the titles inherent base that they ARE 3I Nobles and represent the 3I, and must be treated as such lest the ire of the 3I be called down upon the offenders (Minimum, probably a duel). Sir Patrick Stewart is a real world example, an actor who was Knighted for his contributions to his art. No real power, but IS a peer of the realm, and must be treated as such.

There can be, and often is carryover between the three. Most PCs fall into the Honor Noble category, having gained their titles as an award from service in one career or another. Those who have been a part of the Noble career, are either High Nobles, or Local nobles of one planet or another, and IMTU get to have portfolio rolls rather than cash benefits rolls. They can also have immense influence in the places where they hold power. Those who rolled an 11 or 12 for their Soc and did not join the Noble Career are, IMTU assumed to be either non-inheriting title holders (falling into the Honor Noble category) or Honor Nobles.

I understand that my views are a very "proto-Traveller", and I hope that how I handled things IMTU helps.

 

[casquilho]

I handle things mostly the same as you Cryton. I treat most PCs as Honor Nobles. Makes more sense that way.

 

[rancke]

In my opinion Imperial nobles, even honor nobles, inherently have far too big a social advantage to work for normal street-level PCs. Even if they were destitute, they'd be treated like Russian grand dukes were treated in America and Britain after the Russian Revolution. And as I said above, someone with an Imperial title would not stay destitute any longer than it took to find some businesses and charities that would pay him to lend his name to those organizations.

So IMTU social class goes up way above 15. Imperial barons start at Social Rung 24. Any PC that gained a Social Rung (level) of 15 in character generation would be the equivalent of a parochial duke (quite possibly a disempowered duke), though he would most likely be an Imperial knight in an appropriate knighthood rather than an actual parochial noble.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

In my opinion Imperial nobles, even honor nobles, inherently have far too big a social advantage to work for normal street-level PCs. Even if they were destitute, they'd be treated like Russian grand dukes were treated in America and Britain after the Russian Revolution. And as I said above, someone with an Imperial title would not stay destitute any longer than it took to find some businesses and charities that would pay him to lend his name to those organizations.

So IMTU social class goes up way above 15. Imperial barons start at Social Rung 24. Any PC that gained a Social Rung (level) of 15 in character generation would be the equivalent of a parochial duke (quite possibly a disempowered duke), though he would most likely be an Imperial knight in an appropriate knighthood rather than an actual parochial noble.


Hans

I'm sure all that's true Hans, I however would have to say those situations make for great role-playing for a destitute Honor Noble. Intrigue, double-dealing, and sabotage/espionage game. Great idea.

Not to keen on the Social over 15 idea. Each to their own I guess.

 

[rancke]

I'm sure all that's true Hans, I however would have to say those situations make for great role-playing for a destitute Honor Noble. Intrigue, double-dealing, and sabotage/espionage game. Great idea.

Certainly. But it's not going to be a standard Traveller game. It would be like playing D&D with all the party starting at level 1 except for one who had the good luck to start at level 10. Unless you more or less ignored the social ramificantions of having an Imperial noble (however destitute) along.

Not to keen on the Social over 15 idea. Each to their own I guess.

17 social levels may be enough to cover the full range of a major interstellar civilization (IMO GURPS could do it with 17 (-4 to 12)), but not when nine of them are spent on the lower and middle classes and the star class (interstellar class) uses another half dozen. That leaves one or two to cover the upper class from country squire to country ruler. (Continental and world rulers would get up in the same lofty ranks as Imperial barons and marquesses)

Mind you, I could have done it with less than the 33 I use. I was a bit profligate with the upper and star class levels because I wanted to make it possible to get the vanilla Traveller levels by dividing by two. So I have junior marquis 25, senior marquis 26, viscount 27, count 28, and so on. I also use more levels than is strictly necessary on the parochial nobles.

The main purpose, however, was to make sure that the nobles thrown up by character generation was NOT Imperial nobles or even kings and presidents.


Hans