Nobility
- Thread starter tjoneslo
- Start date
As long as you don't use 9 of them for the lower and middle classes and half a dozen for the star class, sure.
So more than 15, then.
Hans
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
There are skills that might use SOC, so unless you are one of those who writes a unique rule for every case, a doubled SOC range is going to mess with those skill checks.
Not if my games don't include Imperial nobles (except perhaps as patrons).
Also, if it ever became an issue, a simple cap on reation roll modifiers would meet the case. After all, what difference does it make to a dreg of society if someone is an Imperial noble or "merely" a parochial noble? The reaction would be much the same.
The reaction of a parochial duke to a country squire and to a king, however, would be quite, quite different, but if all three of them are SOC 11, you kind of lose that in the game mechanics, don't you?
"your Grace, Squire Tompkins asks to see you."
[Rolls high]
"Show him in and prepare a feast for him!"
"Your Grace, the King is here."
[Rolls low]
"Tell him to come back tomorrow, I'm busy."
[Rolls high]
"Show him in and prepare a feast for him!"
"Your Grace, the King is here."
[Rolls low]
"Tell him to come back tomorrow, I'm busy."
If you base reaction rolls on social class, then it really doesn't work properly to put people who wouldn't consider themselves equals in the same class.
Hans
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I've taken to using a house rule:
When you first attain Soc 11: you obtain either a service or domain knighthood.
Each further +1 soc may do one of the following:
Basically, it's a way to spend the excess Soc receipts...
When you first attain Soc 11: you obtain either a service or domain knighthood.
Each further +1 soc may do one of the following:
- Increase from Knight in an order to Knight Commander in one order
- Increase from Knight Commander to Knight Grand Commander in one order
- Increase fief one step, but not above suitable for rank
- Increase Personal Honor title
- Increase Heritable Honor Title (but not above lower of fief or personal honor title)
- gain basic knighthood in a notable order.
Basically, it's a way to spend the excess Soc receipts...
No Hans.:rofl:
The odds of a player getting in the 15+ crowd are astronomical.
Different types of knights are specializations.
You should just put all the stats on a D100 and roll it 6 times. :rofl:
This is a) not true and b) not relevant (as far as I can see).
True, or at least sort of true on 21st Century Earth (some knighthoods are reserved for certain levels of nobles and for royals). It's not true in the MTU Third Imperium, but who cares about the MTU Third Imperium?
But then, I'm not suggesting that parochial knights should be distributed across more than one social level. I'm suggesting that in a system where the lower and middle classes are distributed across nine levels and the interstellar nobles are distributed at one social level per noble rank, parochial knights and baronets and barons and viscounts and counts and marquesses and dukes and archdukes and kings and emperors and continental rulers and world rulers should be distributed across more than one or two levels.
I'm afraid the joke eludes me.
Hans
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Archdukes and Sector Dukes should have no problem getting an audience with the Emperor; subsector ones would have to state a reason, since it would break the chain of command.
Actually, sector dukes are not a level interposed between subsector dukes and the Emperor. Sector dukes are merely first among equals and have some additional duties supervising sector-level activities. Prior to Strephon's reforms subsector dukes answered directly to the Emperor. (And since we know only the scantiest details about just what powers the reforms gave the archdukes, we don't actually know that they became a link between the dukes and the Emperor; perhaps they just got to supervise certain domain-level activities.)
Hans
I dunno. Cause it's Traveller, not Landed Gentry Manager?
This.
Obviously, and there's evidence that it does just that. But it's simultaneously a bad idea, because Imperial nobles are supposed to be loyal to the Emperor and keep an eye on the member worlds. By elevating local bigwigs to the Imperial nobility, the Imperium creates servants with loyalties divided between the Imperium and their homeworlds.
I mean, Imperial title or not, in a controversy between the Imperium and the world he has a big stake in, what's going to be the primary loyalty of a world ruler?
Hans
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hmm.
A subsector duke in a frontier sector is the 'emperor'.
How did Roman emperors govern? They had a senate to order around - and we already know there are senators.
Soooo - worlds within sub-sectors elect/appoint senators to the duchy 'senate' with duke representing the Imperium/emperor
It's not the medieval paradigm of nobility it is the roman model just with medieval names.
A subsector duke in a frontier sector is the 'emperor'.
How did Roman emperors govern? They had a senate to order around - and we already know there are senators.
Soooo - worlds within sub-sectors elect/appoint senators to the duchy 'senate' with duke representing the Imperium/emperor
It's not the medieval paradigm of nobility it is the roman model just with medieval names.
I've alway seen it as much more like the 19th Century British model than the medieval model (though the analogy is far from exact). I can't see how the Roman model would apply.
Hans
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Western Medieval model is to accept the entrenched status of the nobility and co-opt them, and balance out their influence by allowing the bourgeoisie to exist as a class and selectively raising them in military and administrative roles, instead allowing them to rule autonomously or continually reasserting Royal prerogative.
Whereas the Roman strongman tended to either reassert the primacy of the Praetorian caste or appeal to the proletariat as their power base, Crassus apparently decided to do both by possibly being the first SuperPacker.
The Emperors increasingly sidelined the Praetorians, as they considered them the greatest threat to their rule, until they considered successful military commanders as that.
Whereas the Roman strongman tended to either reassert the primacy of the Praetorian caste or appeal to the proletariat as their power base, Crassus apparently decided to do both by possibly being the first SuperPacker.
The Emperors increasingly sidelined the Praetorians, as they considered them the greatest threat to their rule, until they considered successful military commanders as that.
talos402000
SOC-7
From what I can tell their are two big advantages to being an Imperial Noble:
Social Prestige and preferential treatment for promotions in the Imperial Armed Forces and Bureaucracy. Everything else is purely circumstantial.
Going by what GT:Nobles said there are five groups of nobles in the Imperium:
High Nobles. These people actually rule the Imperium and wield the Imperial Mandate within their geographic area or area of expertise. They have been given fiefs and huscarles by the Emperor (and only the Emperor can take them away again) to support their positions. Both their titles and jobs are inheritable. No Knights or Baronets are High Nobles, very few Barons or Marquises are, 75% of counts and viscounts are, 95% of Dukes are, and all Archdukes are High Nobles. All High Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Rank Nobles. These are the people who actually do the day-to-day work of the Imperium. A Rank Noble's title is inheritable, but not his job. They do not have fiefs or huscarles and do not wield the Imperial Mandate. The Imperium's official policy is to promote Nobles over commoners, but even so the Emperor still creates new Rank Noble families every year. All Rank Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Local Nobility. These are the descendants of High (younger children who did not inherit the title) and Rank Nobles. They do not have an official job, they do not wield the Imperial Mandate, they do not have fiefs or huscarles. This is the pool of people that the Rank Nobility is usually recruited from. Local Nobility is inheritable. Local Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Honor Nobility. Honor Nobility is given out by the Imperium as a reward for great service to the Imperium. All Knights and most Baronets are Honor Nobility (Archdukes may create new Knights and Baronets). They usually do not have an official job, they do not wield the Imperial Mandate, they do not have fiefs or huscarles. Knighthoods and Baronet titles are not inheritable, higher ranks may or may not be depending on the whim of the Emperor. Honor Nobility above the rank of Baronet may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Planetary Nobility. Planetary Nobility are NOT Imperial Nobility and receive no special treatment when off-world. All Imperial Nobility is considered to out-rank all Planetary Nobility. That is, an Imperial Baron would out-rank a planetary High King. Planetary Nobility may or may not be inheritable depending on local circumstances. Planetary Nobles do not wield the Imperial Mandate, do not have fiefs or huscarles and may not sit in the Imperial Moot.
Note that many Imperial Nobles are also part of their homeworlds planetary nobility.
From what I understand from GT:Nobles this is how nobility works in the Imperium.
Social Prestige and preferential treatment for promotions in the Imperial Armed Forces and Bureaucracy. Everything else is purely circumstantial.
Going by what GT:Nobles said there are five groups of nobles in the Imperium:
High Nobles. These people actually rule the Imperium and wield the Imperial Mandate within their geographic area or area of expertise. They have been given fiefs and huscarles by the Emperor (and only the Emperor can take them away again) to support their positions. Both their titles and jobs are inheritable. No Knights or Baronets are High Nobles, very few Barons or Marquises are, 75% of counts and viscounts are, 95% of Dukes are, and all Archdukes are High Nobles. All High Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Rank Nobles. These are the people who actually do the day-to-day work of the Imperium. A Rank Noble's title is inheritable, but not his job. They do not have fiefs or huscarles and do not wield the Imperial Mandate. The Imperium's official policy is to promote Nobles over commoners, but even so the Emperor still creates new Rank Noble families every year. All Rank Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Local Nobility. These are the descendants of High (younger children who did not inherit the title) and Rank Nobles. They do not have an official job, they do not wield the Imperial Mandate, they do not have fiefs or huscarles. This is the pool of people that the Rank Nobility is usually recruited from. Local Nobility is inheritable. Local Nobles may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Honor Nobility. Honor Nobility is given out by the Imperium as a reward for great service to the Imperium. All Knights and most Baronets are Honor Nobility (Archdukes may create new Knights and Baronets). They usually do not have an official job, they do not wield the Imperial Mandate, they do not have fiefs or huscarles. Knighthoods and Baronet titles are not inheritable, higher ranks may or may not be depending on the whim of the Emperor. Honor Nobility above the rank of Baronet may sit in the Imperial Moot.
Planetary Nobility. Planetary Nobility are NOT Imperial Nobility and receive no special treatment when off-world. All Imperial Nobility is considered to out-rank all Planetary Nobility. That is, an Imperial Baron would out-rank a planetary High King. Planetary Nobility may or may not be inheritable depending on local circumstances. Planetary Nobles do not wield the Imperial Mandate, do not have fiefs or huscarles and may not sit in the Imperial Moot.
Note that many Imperial Nobles are also part of their homeworlds planetary nobility.
From what I understand from GT:Nobles this is how nobility works in the Imperium.
That's how you'd expect it to work, but unfortunately, preferential treatment according to the character creation systems are given to everyone who is above the upper middle class. This would include all the parochial nobles down to the equivalent of country squires (and their immediate family).
All Imperial member worlds have a high baron (minor worlds) or a high marquis (major world). Some major worlds also have a high count for the local cluster; he may or may not double up on the imperial marquis title for his world.
Where did you get the percentages? They are very interesting, because it gives a way to estimate the number of non-high counts and dukes.
Rank nobles are commoners or low-ranking Imperial nobles who get apponted to a post that requires a higher rank than they have. To enable them to hold such a position, they get a rank noble title, which is often a life title, but may be inheritable, in which case the heir becomes an honor hnoble.
This is just another (unofficial) name for honor nobles. All nobles other than high nobles who inherit their title are honor nobles.
In principle planetary nobles belong to a different chain of command, so there's no outranking involved. Imperial barons have the same social status as major planetary kings; marquesses the same as continental scale kings; counts as planetary rulers of major worlds (high-tech, high-population).
For various reasons some planetary rulers get Imperial noble titles, giving them a position in the Imperial nobility under a different hat, as it were.
Until T5 retconned it.
Hans
talos402000
SOC-7
I've never played any Traveller system but Gurps so I'll take your word for it.
That is not quite correct. While most member worlds do have a noble associated with them very few of those nobles are actually High Nobles. High Nobles directly administer territory in the name of the Emperor, and most member worlds have local automony and are not directly controlled by the Imperium. Remember, the Imperium does not try to directly control worlds, they control the space between those worlds.
To be honest, I didn't. My GM did and I just borrowed his numbers 'cause they seem to make sense.
This is not correct. Honor Noble Titles are only given out by the Emperor for extraordinary service to the Imperium or great personal achievement (winning the Imperial Olympics for instance). Nobody is ever born into the Honor Nobility. On page 12 of GT: Nobles it describes the Local Nobility and their role in the Imperium. Here's the first paragraph:
Every time someone is promoted to high Imperial Office and given a new hereditary title of rank, a new noble family is created. The rank noble's descendants inherit the title, but in most cases do not hold a similar high office. Over the centuries, such noble titles have proliferated in all parts of the Imperium, creating a population of low ranking nobles without fiefs or significant government responsibilities. These local nobles actually make up the majority of the Imperial aristocracy.
That is not correct. A planetary noble's power or prestige is recognized only on his world, an Imperial Noble is recognized all across the Imperium. The two are not similar. For instance, the High King of Avalon (who is also an Imperial Baron) is addressed as Your Majesty on Avalon and his word is law, but offworld he is addressed only Baron and he has no more authority than any other citizen.
Until T5 retconned it.
Never played T5 so I can't comment on that.
You didn't read the whole thread from the start, did you? This was discussed in earlier posts.
The thing is, with interstellar government beginning at the subsector level and, as you say, member worlds being autonomous, if you insist on the description in Nobles, the only high nobles would be the subsector dukes and the archdukes.
Yes, but 'local noble' is not one of the three categories that the Imperial nobility is said to be divided into. See p. 11. "There are three broad classes of Imperial nobility: high nobility, rank nobility, and honor nobility."
High nobles have specific jobs; rank nobles are those with positions that require a higher title than they had originally; honor nobles are all the rest.
Referring to them as local nobles is defendable, I suppose, but it can be a bit misleading. They're the honor nobles that live locally, whatever 'locally' implies.
But so is the social level of parochial nobles. They only have power on their own worlds, sure (or no power even on their own worlds). But the prestige is the same across the Imperium; a noble doesn't lose his social level when he visits another world (Just like Russian grand dukes were lionized when they visited England and America, despite having no power at all outside Russia).
Hans
Beig associated with a member world or a cluster or a duchy is the mark of being a high noble.
Administering territory is not the same thing as extercising governmental powers over it. Nor is the worlds or clusters a high noble is associated with the territory they administer1. The high noble serve as the Emperor's representative to 'his' world, not as ruler of it. High dukes do rule over their duchies, but counts do not rule their counties. ["Interstellar government begins at the subsector level -" [LDAM, p. 7] ]
1 The bit about all high nobles administering territory in the name of the Emperor is something Nobles added to the canon, but if one assumes that all membership treaties include the member world ceding a bit of land to the Emperor, it can be explained by assuming that the high nobles administer these estates. Though it's a bit of a stretch to say that it's on behalf of the Emperor. While the estate would belong to the Emperor, it's presumably administered with a view to providing the noble with an income.
That's how a new honor title is created, yes.
Yes, they are. If they inherit an honor title they are honor nobles. Also if the inherit a rank title, which is the case in the bit you quote (below).
1 Emphasis mine.
High nobles have specific jobs; rank nobles are those with positions that require a higher title than they had originally; honor nobles are all the rest.
Referring to them as local nobles is defendable, I suppose, but it can be a bit misleading. They're the honor nobles that live locally, whatever 'locally' implies.
You've just quoted a passage that said that most Imperial nobles have no real inherent powers ("no fiefs and no governmental responsibilities"). The prestige is a different matter. Their social level is the same everywhere.
But so is the social level of parochial nobles. They only have power on their own worlds, sure (or no power even on their own worlds). But the prestige is the same across the Imperium; a noble doesn't lose his social level when he visits another world (Just like Russian grand dukes were lionized when they visited England and America, despite having no power at all outside Russia).
But his social level is 12 both at home and abroad. Of course, a social hostess on Capital would have to make sure he did have an appropriate social level before inviting him to a social function. That's trivial when he also have an Imperial barony. But his peer, the High King of Ys, who doesn't have an Imperial barony, is also SL12 and would also get an invitation (Though if there were only room for one, the King of Avalon would get it, of course -- he is more equal than the King of Ys).
Hans
