Non imperial worlds?

[Whipsnade]

Well, people raise good points, but then again it could also go like this: (snip of utter fantasy)

Trent,

And it will most likely go like this...

"So, New Eolara has privately said if we try moving in, or letting an imperial megacorp move in on them and strip mine their zuchai deposits they'll release a very nasty viral weapon on some imperial worlds in this area, right?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And all the intel points to a pretty good chance they can pull it off?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And the monetary gain from exploiting the deposits won't be anything near the money we'll have to spend countering their bio-war threat?"

"No where near the amount necessary, m'lord."

"Okay, take some memos... First, to the LSP sector chief... Begin with all the usual mumbo jumbo and then let him know we can't support his mining program on New Eolara. Sugar it up some and I'll add a private note. Fink-Nottle and I were in school together, you know. Hearing directly from me will soften the blow."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Second, request an audience with the Archduke at his earliest convenience and bundle that together with all our communications with New Eolara, including these new threats they've made to us in private."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Third, I want all the duchy's spook chiefs here ASAP, including that bastard Hoover. Especially that bastard Hoover. Drag them all in, IAI, INI, S-3, everyone in the damn alphabet."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Fourth, get the Foreign Ministry rep in to see me as soon as you can tear him away from his mistresses. We're going to have to let the Zhodani, Darrians, Arden, Floriani, the indies in 268, and even the Swordies know about this. If these New Eolara assclowns are uppity enough to threaten the Imperium with slate wiper bio attacks, everyone else needs to know that the same card may be played on them too."

"Yes, m'lord. Ahhh..."

"Questions? Your mother did send you here to learn how to run a duchy before you inherit."

"We aren't going to press them further on the matter of the zucchai deposits?"

"Not exactly. We aren't going to press them further now on the matter of the crystal mining concession. And what's more, we probably wouldn't have pressed them that hard in the first place. They could have held out for a bigger slice or even demanded third party operations, but they decided to threaten the Imperium instead. That cannot be tolerated."

"I think I see..."

"We're the Imperium, Ponsonby, and we don't get f*cked with. Especially by single pissant worlds and especially with weapons of mass destruction. We, as the Imperium, can also play the long game. Dealing with New Eolara may take a year, a decade, or a generation, but New Eolara will be dealt with. Understand?"

"It's the bio-war threat, isn't it?"

"Got it in one. They've just threatened to kill billions of Imperial subjects over a mining concesssion. A freaking mining concession. What little hiccup is going to trigger their next threat? Transponder requirements? Tariffs? Traffic control? Their ambassador's poodle gets hit by a ground car? If they're willing to kill billions over a mere matter of mining, they'd too damned dangerous to be allowed their independence. That's why all the other powers in the region are going to be informed quietly about just what idiocies New Eolara is spewing in the name of negotiations. When the time comes, the Zhos and Swordies will make their usual mouth noises for public consumption, but privately they'll be helping us in this matter. It is in the best interest of all concerned that idiots who go around threatening to launch slate wiping plagues be dealt with."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Good, good. Now pop off and get those memos out. I want to get the ball rolling as quickly as possible. Among other things, we've deep cover agents and their bug bombs to track down before I can let the Navy off the leash to put the boot in."


You see, Trent, you're failing to understand that once New Eolara announces it's willing to kill billions with bio-weapons or it's willing to infect other ecosystems with new diseases, the gloves are going to come off. It may take the Imperium a while to get ready, but New Eolara and her leaders are on a bullet train headed for the ash heap of history. Economic concerns, like the deposits not paying for the invasion, become meaningless in the face of such threats.

This is called realpolitik and Traveller's official setting has realpolitik in spades. You can spin all the fantasies you want, manipulate the conditions well past anything remotely plausible, and stack the deck with nothing but aces in New Eolara's favor, but in the end the Imperium - and everyone else in the region - is going to smack New Eolara down because New Eolara has proven itself too damn dangerous to trust.

I'm sorry. Your idea may very well work IYTU, but it won't work in the OTU or any other rationale, plausible, or realistic TU.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Frankymole]

A belief in democracy is no reason to run away from the Imperium, since one of its basic principles is to let local government alone (Of course, the homeworld may have been a dictatorship ). Be that as it may, the Imperium stopped expanding by force 500 years ago (or more). Strephon, at least, believes in democracy, although he also believes that trying to impose it from above is liable to go horribly wrong. I have a notion that all the Alkhalikois have had the same attitude, but maybe not. However, for whatever reason, the Imperium hasn't expanded forcefully since the Civil War. There have been a few attempts to expand by diplomacy (Both District 268 and Five Sisters have had mandated expansion efforts (Those of District 268 have been a complete failure)).

Is there a decent resource for District 268 that would give some background to the incorporation effort and its failure? (I have Tarsus. Pretty much everything else for that matter...) is that detailed online anywhere or in some MT-or-later product? Thanks!

 

[kafka47]

Worlds are always have a choice (however much force is levied) to join the Third Imperium of Man but some decide not to. It might suit the Imperium to allow these worlds to remain in fallow for a number of reasons...these could include diplomatic, military, political or economic. Worlds still might choice some sort of association with the Imperium even if all out member is not an option. I always look around at the neighbouring worlds and construct my history from there.

However, once a world does not separation or disassociation is never an option for a world. Hence creating pirate havens, hotbeds of dissidents, etc. within the Imperium.

 

[robject]

Well, people raise good points, but then again it could also go like this:

But in fact it would probably go like this:

"M'lud?"

"Aye, Quigsnarp, what is it?"

"M'lud, sorry to bother you, but Chancellor Fu from Ling Standard Products has filed his proposal."

"The Imperial megacorporation Ling Standard Products?"

"Aye, M'lud."

"Is this about our Zuchai Crystal deposits?"

"Aye, M'lud."

"Fine. Contact the Imperial embassy; I'll want to speak to the Ambassador. Old Snooks was in the New Eolaran Colonial Navy before leaving for the Imperium; did you know that? We attended Academy together. We're an independent bunch here on New Eolara, but we're not stupid. I want him to vet the Chancellor's proposal for any sneakiness."

"Aye, M'lud."

 

[rancke]

So in the absence of a powerful ally, the little guy is dead meat, unless the world can divest itself of whatever quality the Imperium covets?

Canonically, the Imperium has been shown to curb megacorporate activity on a number of occasions. It seems that the bureaucratic side of the Imperium tends to be a powerful ally of individual member worlds. This does not make a whole lot of sense if, as is generally assumed, the same (class of) people runs the bureaucracy and the megacorporations. Perhaps one should reexamine that assumption. Maybe the structure of the Imperium pits the bureaucracy against the megacorporations in some form of dynamic tension designed to keep the Imperium from becoming unworkable?

Anyway, since the Imperium hasn't expanded in 500 years while at least some megacorporations have, maybe non-aligned worlds just outside the border likewise tends to be protected against the megacorporations by the Imperium?


Hans

 

[Trent]

Trent,

And it will most likely go like this...

"So, New Eolara has privately said if we try moving in, or letting an imperial megacorp move in on them and strip mine their zuchai deposits they'll release a very nasty viral weapon on some imperial worlds in this area, right?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And all the intel points to a pretty good chance they can pull it off?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And the monetary gain from exploiting the deposits won't be anything near the money we'll have to spend countering their bio-war threat?"

"No where near the amount necessary, m'lord."

"Okay, take some memos... First, to the LSP sector chief... Begin with all the usual mumbo jumbo and then let him know we can't support his mining program on New Eolara. Sugar it up some and I'll add a private note. Fink-Nottle and I were in school together, you know. Hearing directly from me will soften the blow."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Second, request an audience with the Archduke at his earliest convenience and bundle that together with all our communications with New Eolara, including these new threats they've made to us in private."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Third, I want all the duchy's spook chiefs here ASAP, including that bastard Hoover. Especially that bastard Hoover. Drag them all in, IAI, INI, S-3, everyone in the damn alphabet."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Fourth, get the Foreign Ministry rep in to see me as soon as you can tear him away from his mistresses. We're going to have to let the Zhodani, Darrians, Arden, Floriani, the indies in 268, and even the Swordies know about this. If these New Eolara assclowns are uppity enough to threaten the Imperium with slate wiper bio attacks, everyone else needs to know that the same card may be played on them too."

"Yes, m'lord. Ahhh..."

"Questions? Your mother did send you here to learn how to run a duchy before you inherit."

"We aren't going to press them further on the matter of the zucchai deposits?"

"Not exactly. We aren't going to press them further now on the matter of the crystal mining concession. And what's more, we probably wouldn't have pressed them that hard in the first place. They could have held out for a bigger slice or even demanded third party operations, but they decided to threaten the Imperium instead. That cannot be tolerated."

"I think I see..."

"We're the Imperium, Ponsonby, and we don't get f*cked with. Especially by single pissant worlds and especially with weapons of mass destruction. We, as the Imperium, can also play the long game. Dealing with New Eolara may take a year, a decade, or a generation, but New Eolara will be dealt with. Understand?"

"It's the bio-war threat, isn't it?"

"Got it in one. They've just threatened to kill billions of Imperial subjects over a mining concesssion. A freaking mining concession. What little hiccup is going to trigger their next threat? Transponder requirements? Tariffs? Traffic control? Their ambassador's poodle gets hit by a ground car? If they're willing to kill billions over a mere matter of mining, they'd too damned dangerous to be allowed their independence. That's why all the other powers in the region are going to be informed quietly about just what idiocies New Eolara is spewing in the name of negotiations. When the time comes, the Zhos and Swordies will make their usual mouth noises for public consumption, but privately they'll be helping us in this matter. It is in the best interest of all concerned that idiots who go around threatening to launch slate wiping plagues be dealt with."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Good, good. Now pop off and get those memos out. I want to get the ball rolling as quickly as possible. Among other things, we've deep cover agents and their bug bombs to track down before I can let the Navy off the leash to put the boot in."


You see, Trent, you're failing to understand that once New Eolara announces it's willing to kill billions with bio-weapons or it's willing to infect other ecosystems with new diseases, the gloves are going to come off. It may take the Imperium a while to get ready, but New Eolara and her leaders are on a bullet train headed for the ash heap of history. Economic concerns, like the deposits not paying for the invasion, become meaningless in the face of such threats.

This is called realpolitik and Traveller's official setting has realpolitik in spades. You can spin all the fantasies you want, manipulate the conditions well past anything remotely plausible, and stack the deck with nothing but aces in New Eolara's favor, but in the end the Imperium - and everyone else in the region - is going to smack New Eolara down because New Eolara has proven itself too damn dangerous to trust.

I'm sorry. Your idea may very well work IYTU, but it won't work in the OTU or any other rationale, plausible, or realistic TU.


Regards,
Bill

SIGH, The point was that the issue wasn't mining concessions, it was about having the planet's eco system essentially raped to death by strip mining and destructive industrial processes, that was the issue and maybe some people would rather fight than just roll over and let their homes be devastated by a megacorp.

BTW, your snarky attitude towards my post wasn't required or appreciated. As to calling my possible outcome "utter fantasy" I'd say it would be SHEER STUPIDITY of the 3I to tell the zhoads OR ANYONE about Eolara's private threat to them, because it gives the zhoads a "hit the imperium for free" card by having their agents release a bioweapon and making it look like the eolarans did it. It would be idiotic of the imps to tall anyone about a private matter and risk someone deciding it was safe to hit the 3I because you had a patsy. My idea was a lot more plausible than your thought of the 3I basically saying "Someone's threatened us, so you can attack us and pass the blame onto them!"

Anyone with a brain in the 3I would keep that as quiet as possible, for fear of a third party deciding it could screw the imps over now that there was a more likely suspect. Likewise the eolarans wouldn't want it to go public as it might force the imps to do something macho.

As to threatening to kill millions of people, hey, we do that today, it's called M.A.D. and it's kept the major powers of the world today from open war for 50 years.

 

[rancke]

As to threatening to kill millions of people, hey, we do that today, it's called M.A.D. and it's kept the major powers of the world today from open war for 50 years.

Yeah, but the operative word is 'mutually', and as I pointed out above, unlike the US/SU confrontation, the situation you describe is very far from mutual.


Hans

 

[Trent]

Yeah, but the operative word is 'mutually', and as I pointed out above, unlike the US/SU confrontation, the situation you describe is very far from mutual.


Hans

True, however it's still a case of "Yeah you can take us out but I don't think you're gonna want to pay the butcher's bill we'll run up for you on the way out."

 

[Whipsnade]

As to threatening to kill millions of people, hey, we do that today, it's called M.A.D. and it's kept the major powers of the world today from open war for 50 years.

Trent,

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, the situation between New Eolara and the Imperium isn't a case of MAD.

As for the Imperium letting everyone else know about New Eolara's idiotic threats, that's what responsible polities do for each other - even if they're enemies. New Eolara has proven itself to be very dangerous and it is in the best interests of every other polity in the region that they know that fact. The Imperium is being threatened today over the possible destruction of an ecosystem, it could very well be someone else tomorrow over something far less severe.

(By the way, destruction of ecosystems is one of the few acts that we know to be an Imperial crime. That makes New Eolara's fears and the threats those fears engendered all the more silly.)

If you're looking for the nearest real world analogy for the New Eolara situation, North Korea is the best on a list of a very poor selections. You'll also notice that world powers who normally don't give each other the time of day, the PRC, Russia, and the US, are all pretty much on the same page when it comes to North Korea.

You want New Eolara to maintain her independence? Then New Eolara needs a powerful patron outside or inside the Imperium.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Easterner9504]

Trent,

And it will most likely go like this...

"So, New Eolara has privately said if we try moving in, or letting an imperial megacorp move in on them and strip mine their zuchai deposits they'll release a very nasty viral weapon on some imperial worlds in this area, right?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And all the intel points to a pretty good chance they can pull it off?"

"Yes, m'lord."

"And the monetary gain from exploiting the deposits won't be anything near the money we'll have to spend countering their bio-war threat?"

"No where near the amount necessary, m'lord."

"Okay, take some memos... First, to the LSP sector chief... Begin with all the usual mumbo jumbo and then let him know we can't support his mining program on New Eolara. Sugar it up some and I'll add a private note. Fink-Nottle and I were in school together, you know. Hearing directly from me will soften the blow."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Second, request an audience with the Archduke at his earliest convenience and bundle that together with all our communications with New Eolara, including these new threats they've made to us in private."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Third, I want all the duchy's spook chiefs here ASAP, including that bastard Hoover. Especially that bastard Hoover. Drag them all in, IAI, INI, S-3, everyone in the damn alphabet."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Fourth, get the Foreign Ministry rep in to see me as soon as you can tear him away from his mistresses. We're going to have to let the Zhodani, Darrians, Arden, Floriani, the indies in 268, and even the Swordies know about this. If these New Eolara assclowns are uppity enough to threaten the Imperium with slate wiper bio attacks, everyone else needs to know that the same card may be played on them too."

"Yes, m'lord. Ahhh..."

"Questions? Your mother did send you here to learn how to run a duchy before you inherit."

"We aren't going to press them further on the matter of the zucchai deposits?"

"Not exactly. We aren't going to press them further now on the matter of the crystal mining concession. And what's more, we probably wouldn't have pressed them that hard in the first place. They could have held out for a bigger slice or even demanded third party operations, but they decided to threaten the Imperium instead. That cannot be tolerated."

"I think I see..."

"We're the Imperium, Ponsonby, and we don't get f*cked with. Especially by single pissant worlds and especially with weapons of mass destruction. We, as the Imperium, can also play the long game. Dealing with New Eolara may take a year, a decade, or a generation, but New Eolara will be dealt with. Understand?"

"It's the bio-war threat, isn't it?"

"Got it in one. They've just threatened to kill billions of Imperial subjects over a mining concesssion. A freaking mining concession. What little hiccup is going to trigger their next threat? Transponder requirements? Tariffs? Traffic control? Their ambassador's poodle gets hit by a ground car? If they're willing to kill billions over a mere matter of mining, they'd too damned dangerous to be allowed their independence. That's why all the other powers in the region are going to be informed quietly about just what idiocies New Eolara is spewing in the name of negotiations. When the time comes, the Zhos and Swordies will make their usual mouth noises for public consumption, but privately they'll be helping us in this matter. It is in the best interest of all concerned that idiots who go around threatening to launch slate wiping plagues be dealt with."

"Yes, m'lord."

"Good, good. Now pop off and get those memos out. I want to get the ball rolling as quickly as possible. Among other things, we've deep cover agents and their bug bombs to track down before I can let the Navy off the leash to put the boot in."


You see, Trent, you're failing to understand that once New Eolara announces it's willing to kill billions with bio-weapons or it's willing to infect other ecosystems with new diseases, the gloves are going to come off. It may take the Imperium a while to get ready, but New Eolara and her leaders are on a bullet train headed for the ash heap of history. Economic concerns, like the deposits not paying for the invasion, become meaningless in the face of such threats.

This is called realpolitik and Traveller's official setting has realpolitik in spades. You can spin all the fantasies you want, manipulate the conditions well past anything remotely plausible, and stack the deck with nothing but aces in New Eolara's favor, but in the end the Imperium - and everyone else in the region - is going to smack New Eolara down because New Eolara has proven itself too damn dangerous to trust.

I'm sorry. Your idea may very well work IYTU, but it won't work in the OTU or any other rationale, plausible, or realistic TU.


Regards,
Bill

Meanwhile on Halka.....

"send some feelers to New Eolara. SOLSEC...I mean HALSEC must have samples of this plague, it it kills Apemen we wipe the untermenschen from the galaxy deal with the Vilani scum next door on New Trossechs then sweep the decadent Imperium aside so the Rule of Man may be re-established. Are our two Grav Panzer divisions ready? Battalions? We only have two battalions! We call them divisions but they're battalions. I see lets wait a few generations."

Lots of little, run by the delusional/demented, states out there.

 

[Easterner9504]

New Eolara

Saddam's Iraq would be better example, supported by Eastern Bloc. Yet Israel bombed its reactors, fellow Arabs invaded in Gulf War, then finally destroyed when fear of non-existent/removed WMD's seemed likely to fall into wrong hands. Like Syria's hands who's reactor went boom one dark night a few years later.

 

[Max]

Of course you also have to consider the conversation in the LSP sector administrator's office.

So, New Erola is threatening to release so bio-weapon on the Imperium to protect their zuchai crystals?

It's New Erolara, and yes sir.

Hmm, with the deposits on Rath's World drying up our production schedules for the Iberius Project will be royally screwed without a replacement source of zuchai cystals. Have we any alternatives to this New Erolara?

None realistic sir. We have operations ona few Vagr planets enough to use them as a source of zuchai crystals but it will be at least twenty years before they can be considered stable enough to be a supply. Otherwise there are no sources of zuchai crystals on this side of the Imperium. Setting up a stable supply route from other areas of the Imperium is possible but would completely blow out the budget. We need New Erolara online within 2 years if we want to keep Iberius on schedule and on budget, even with New Erolara it will be difficult to keep on schedule until the Vagr supply is available.

Right, what are the projections if they go ahead with their threats?

Well sir, we'll do quite well if we start preparing now and the New Erolarans don't launch their biowar for 6 months we can do quite well despite some lost business. Given projected losses we can expect a 2 decade drop of about 30% in ship demand in the sector about half of which can be countered by keeping up production and selling the ships outside the Imperium. There should be an unquantifiable but at least 200% initial surge in demand for the military products division for a year as planets establish quarantines followed by a long term decrease of about 5% for the next decade. Our environmental suit facilities should see a tripling of demand in the first year and a 50% increase in demand extending into the forseeable future. The real star is the medical services division, with a 6 month lead time we can at least equal and perhaps surpass SuSAG as the primary medical supplier in this sector. Other divisions would be affected but those are the big ones.

OK, let the division heads know to start making preparations. Wait, don't let Willims know, she's been getting too independent and needs to be taken down a peg. Keep this as quiet as possible as long as possible, we do not want to lose an edge to our competitors. There isn't any way we can keep SuSAG from finding out about the threat is there? Have Johnson send up all the info we have on the local political situation, get the liaison from Varianir's Legion in here and get me the sheets on the black fund so we can figure out what to work with. Is that Takura Frontier liner we acquired still around?

...

 

[Madarin Dude]

Well a lot of hypothetical here but things take a different turn when there is something involved in it that you can understand situations are not that cut and dried.

My example is a bit more involved. I am not sure if this is right but play along. In my example the Bwap home world is independent. Bwaps are an important part of the empire and there are many in every level of government spread throughout the Imperium due to their abilities to work with and organize bureaucracies. So they remain independent because of fear of being abused by the empire if a member. That and a healthy dose of paranoia on some accounts have put this option into place that they find abhorrent but necessary. They make a super virus that attacks humans of Villani strain. Attacking first at the imperial Moot and work out from there.

How did this problem start. Duke Fancypants was tired of paying full price for his lanthium from the Bwap home world so he forwarded a motion during recess of incorporating the Bwap home world into the Imperuium and making him their sector duke and make it easier for his company clever trousers and atomic strip miners to seize the local resources by force and in the process making the bwap home world a wasteland.

So the Bwap want little more than their own independence and to be left alone so and have a good relation with the Empire otherwise.

There are many situations that can make this a more delicate matter than one would initially think.

Just my two cents.

 

[Starviking]

Anyway, since the Imperium hasn't expanded in 500 years while at least some megacorporations have, maybe non-aligned worlds just outside the border likewise tends to be protected against the megacorporations by the Imperium?

The Imperium has however 'nibbled' off bit of small states on it's periphery. The Kolan Hegemony in Reavers Deep, whilst ostensibly a special area in the Imperium has been losing systems from its direct control. Ral Ranta in the Hinterworlds has lost worlds to the Imperium, and recently if the polity border in the 'Map of Charted Space' is to be believed.

Refs: Reavers Deep Sourcebook, Cargonaut Press
Hinterworlds edition of Challenge (53?)
CT Library Data

 

[rancke]

The Imperium has however 'nibbled' off bit of small states on it's periphery. The Kolan Hegemony in Reavers Deep, whilst ostensibly a special area in the Imperium has been losing systems from its direct control. Ral Ranta in the Hinterworlds has lost worlds to the Imperium, and recently if the polity border in the 'Map of Charted Space' is to be believed.

And various emperors have mandated efforts to expand into District 268 and Five Sisters. The point I was trying to make is that the Imperium seems to have given up the methods it used during the Consolidation Wars, and it doesn't look like it usually allow the megacorporations to just move in and take over worlds either.

One reason why the Imperium discourages megacorporations from running roughshot over individual worlds could be because it dislikes multi-world members.


Hans

 

[Mark Morgan]

well having worked in the USA in NBC I think the quickest way t comite sucide aginast the #I is likely to threaten with a biowepon the only wolrd I can imagine would to the reaten something like a trek subspace weapons

now that said pointing out that "we are not going to tolerate agreesion against us and listing yor militaray resources maybe mentioning that have been dicvussing trade relations witht eh Zhodani etc might suggest that taking it is too expensive

if the #I has started the one thing I can enivison is suddenly displayng omething making your ability to resist more than the 3I thought IMTU once i had a human race thata hyperdrivce but not jump drive cvombined with reaction drives the size of spinal mount thus a couple of subsector sized polity stopped an inasion to gaina flank the zhodani in forven sector

 

[Frankymole]

Instead of a bioweapon, they should unleash a computer Virus... maybe those silicon beings in Adventure 13 could help...?

But seriously - what if they didn't offer a stick, but a carrot? Unleash the bio-virus in secret, with an incubation period long enough that it gets spread about far and wide... then offer the vaccine/cure/antidote.... If the 3I fails to do as required, they don't get the cure. Meantime, the little world has immunised its own folk. Cue adventure ideas as the 3I tries to analyse/vivisectionise the little folk for a cure, the PCs being forced to offset expediency with law/morals/ass-kicking law-enforcers (on both sides).

Simples.

 

[Icosahedron]

Simples.

Mole or Market?

(That'll get the rest of the world scratching their heads.)