Well, that's what TCS is for, isn't it?
Now THAT makes a difference ...
- Thread starter Amber Chancer
- Start date
Well, that's what TCS is for, isn't it?
That was my impression. I don't see where it matters whether the poster's roleplaying or not. TCS is a Traveller supplement, certainly worthy of discussion in a Traveller forum - and it's kinda fun.
I fully agree with you here.
By the way, when you say is kinda fun, are you talking about discussing TCS or about the game/suplement itself :devil:?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I view role-playing and wargaming as two totally different types of games.
In role-playing, the players, as a group, are working to a, hopefully, common objective, in the face of obstacles or problems being presented to them by the Game Master.
In wargaming, the players are directly competing against each other, with no Game Master involved.
Solitaire wargaming is quite doable, solitaire role-playing is far more difficult. It can be done, as I have done it, but it is a lot of work.
Trillion Credit Squadron is Traveller-related and based, but is not role-playing. An individual who is commanding a Trillion Credit Fleet is not going to be off wandering the universe adventuring. For that matter, any individual commanding a military starship is not going to be off wandering around adventuring either, unless the adventures are very short. It is possible to structure an adventure for the commander of a military starship or system defense boat, but then what do you do with the rest of the players? Are they members of the crew or something else?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TCS campaigns are most certainly role playing - you are playing the role of the military commander or government of a whole world (if using the Islands campaign).
The timescale for typical actions is just longer.
Ever play chess solo?
The ship combat resolution in TCS is much like that, especially if you are trying out different fleet configurations or TL differences before trying them out on a real opponent.
The timescale for typical actions is just longer.
Ever play chess solo?
The ship combat resolution in TCS is much like that, especially if you are trying out different fleet configurations or TL differences before trying them out on a real opponent.
Well, yeah, but they're both fun. A lot of roleplayers are former or current wargamers. Some might even play poker from time to time.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Well, yeah, but they're both fun. A lot of roleplayers are former or current wargamers. Some might even play poker from time to time.
If you are younger than 42, I have been playing wargames for longer than you have been alive, and if you are younger then 35, I have been playing role-playing games for longer than you have been alive. I have also worked for game companies designing both types of games, along with skirmish war games, which border on role-playing.
With the Swords & Spells supplement to the original D&D game, it became possible to fight what I would call Wars of the Roses scale battles in D&D where the army size was small enough so that the individual character could still play a significant role.
With the Soldier's Companion, GDW did the same for Space: 1889, giving a level of tactical combat where the individual player character was still a viable factor.
In High Guard, Traveller jumped to a level where the individual player character was a marginal factor, but possibly could be justified. Trillion Credit Squadron jumped so far beyond that with the concept of the multi-planet or planet-wide fleet, rendering the role-playing character non-existent. What it should have been was a completely separate game, closer to Imperium than Traveller. It is like going from Don Feartherstone's Skirmish Wargaming to Axis and Allies in term of scale. However, Trillion Credit Squadron is still grand tactical scale, not strategic scale, as you are focusing on fleet space combat directly between ships, and not the strategy or reason why the ships are there in the first place. At that point, Traveller again comes back into the picture, providing the background for the fleet's reason d'etre.
For Trillion Credit Squadron to work correctly, you need Traveller or something similar. To play Traveller, Trillion Credit Squadron is not necessary.
I nearly fully agree with you here, except in the underlined point, as some wargames require (or are best played with) a referee/GM. This applies mostly to double blind games (Harpoon comes to my mind...)
I'm afraid I disagree with you here. In most (if not all) wargames you assume the role of the commander for one side, and that doesn't make them role playing games.
I also disagree with you here, as I see TCS as a strategic game.
If you play a campaign (as the Islands Cluster) I see no discussion here, as most what you say (IMHO) doesn't apply. You focus exactly in what you say you don't, So I understand you're talking about TCS combats/contests.
And even there, your tactical options are really too limited (fight-retreat, assign that ship to reserve or first line, and little else) to see it as a grand tactical game, and focus is mainly in ship/fleet design, as this can be more decisive that any tactical decisions you take.
Of course, this may be just a matter of point of view or even nomenclature...
BTW, I don't comment the rest of your post as I agree with it
Amber Chancer
SOC-12
Spot on.
I have always been both a wargamer and a role player ... and Traveller gives a chance to mix and merge the two which rarely exists in other systems. You can cross the boundary from one to the other and back again, and even indeed wargame the major events and set a role play against the backdrop of those events (I think I read a post here not so long ago about somebody who had done just that, with the 5FW ... )
Suits me fine and if somebody says "Aha! You're wargaming not roleplaying" my answer is "Maybe, but who cares? As long as you're enjoying what you'r edoing, what does it matter what label you (or anybody else) cares to give it?"
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
What I meant was that Traveller gives you the strategic setting for the combat, if you are playing more than an Island Cluster campaign. Although it would be interesting to try role-playing in the Island Cluster before any war breaks out.
Or even while the war has broken out...
Imagine an IISS mission, trying to stabilize things or simply gathering imformation. Hopefully all sides will see them as neutral and won't attack it in fear attracting Imperial attention...
Maybe even some sides will ask them to act as emissaries for prisoneer excahnge, peace or truce talks, etc...
When you're not critical, you are very enlightening.
I'm 51, started my roleplaying with the basic D&D set in '77 and very soon after that moved to the white-box 3-book D&D set, so we're about on a par with that. Can't claim any great, or small, history in the industry, just a very devoted player. I remember Steve Jackson from when he was Baron of Bryn Gwylad and a game designer with Metagaming - very distantly, noobs didn't associate much with barons. That was an incredibly long time ago, and I think he's trying real hard to pretend that era never happened. I still have my Fantasy Trip collection, an elegantly simple game that deserved a better fate than it got. Still have some game books for other systems that died soon after they went to market - and deserved to die; seems like everyone was trying to jump on the bandwagon. Don't have my original D&D stuff, for which I kick myself regularly; went to a good friend during a move, along with my Dragon collection and most of my other gaming material of any value - except my Traveller stuff and a few things, like Fantasy Trip, that I figured I couldn't replace.
But, you know, it's been a terrifically fun three-and-a-half decades, and now I'm breaking my kids in on D&D. Haven't quite persuaded them on Traveller, but I remain hopeful.
My great regret is that there are a number of games from the height of that era that simply don't exist anymore, from simple little card games - there was this neat one involving WW-II era warships - to some fairly detailed strategic simulations. That, and Jackson wants a fortune for what used to be cheap, fun little games. Brilliant man, but ... well, that's not important.
At any rate, I'm not one to split hairs as to whether something's tactical or strategic. I was pleased when TCS followed High Guard: it gave a framework in which to play High Guard full tilt. It contributed nothing to the roleplaying beyond a couple of useful bits of equipment, but like Metagaming's original little-box microgames (Chitin, Invasion of the Air Eaters), it was a nicely inexpensive way of offering a new wargame to the gaming community, and frankly my budget back then was pretty tight. Beat heck out of having to pay for a boxed-set game.
The gaming community in general would be larger and stronger today if companies thought more about their fans' budgets and less about maximizing returns. Mark's been exceptional in that regard - both in the sense that he's made a real effort to ensure his work remains available at a reasonable price, and in the sense that there aren't many companies willing to follow his example. I see TCS in that vein: an effort to offer the Traveller community a little wargame based on the High Guard rules - and thereby promote that rules system - without having to go to the expense and effort of producing a box-set game.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
When you're not critical, you are very enlightening.
My great regret is that there are a number of games from the height of that era that simply don't exist anymore, from simple little card games - there was this neat one involving WW-II era warships - to some fairly detailed strategic simulations. That, and Jackson wants a fortune for what used to be cheap, fun little games. Brilliant man, but ... well, that's not important.
At any rate, I'm not one to split hairs as to whether something's tactical or strategic. I was pleased when TCS followed High Guard: it gave a framework in which to play High Guard full tilt. It contributed nothing to the roleplaying beyond a couple of useful bits of equipment, but like Metagaming's original little-box microgames (Chitin, Invasion of the Air Eaters), it was a nicely inexpensive way of offering a new wargame to the gaming community, and frankly my budget back then was pretty tight. Beat heck out of having to pay for a boxed-set game.
The gaming community in general would be larger and stronger today if companies thought more about their fans' budgets and less about maximizing returns. Mark's been exceptional in that regard - both in the sense that he's made a real effort to ensure his work remains available at a reasonable price, and in the sense that there aren't many companies willing to follow his example. I see TCS in that vein: an effort to offer the Traveller community a little wargame based on the High Guard rules - and thereby promote that rules system - without having to go to the expense and effort of producing a box-set game.
I still have a copy of Warp War somewhere around here, and a lot of markers for expanding Star Fleet Battles I used for my game design class. It would be interesting to put some of them to use as pre-generated HG/TCS ships and then have a couple of sheets of hex paper set up for use like my recreation of the Fred Jane's Naval Game. What he did is have 4 large square boards laid out in 100 yard squares, 1.25 inches each. The ships started on one board, and then when all ships were on the next board, the boards that they left were picked up and repositioned to extend the new boards, so you also had maneuvering room but could use a smaller area. It works well, and could be adapted to hex paper easily. Between that idea and the cardboard ship markers, it should be possible to turn out something like Warp War for a reasonable price, and you have the rules with the small game. Have to cost that out, and see if it would be doable. Sort of like Mayday, which I have a copy of. For that matter, for those who would like it, if the game sells, could put out a line of miniature ships, all same size, but identifiable as to size and type.
I have a friend with a game company that I have done work for where he puts out no game for more that $10 for the rules. Does pretty well. The $10 is for the rules, and then you have to supply the pieces yourself. Against that, supplying the pieces is not hard to do.
So, does he die from a seared throat, or in the resultant steam explosion?
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Hmmm, never really played Star Fleet Battles, except when Lou Zocchi came out with it. Just basic rules and cut out ships, large size. Needed a lot of room for it. I will have to look into that then.
That's NOT SFB... You've confounded "Star Fleet Battle Manual" by Zocchi & Kurtic with "Star Fleet Battles" by Steven V Cole (Published by Task Force, and now by Amarillo Design Bureau). Different games.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Perhaps you refer to Naval War?
First published by Heritage, then released in a 2nd edition by Avalon Hill?
Tim Kask (1st full-time salaried non-partner employee of TSR) was part of the 2nd ed work on that one.
Q&A with Tim Kask page 103 Dragonsfoot.org/forums Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:42 pm
kaskoid said:
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
VERY different games.
I think it depends on the concentration. I've no idea what they'd serve in far-future bars, but I suspect they'd avoid serving it at concentrations that might kill bystanders too. At any rate, if it had been at that concentration, I think the scientist might also have bought it.
And, you know, I had no idea that when you change the sig, it applies retroactively. Or did I do something wrong?
