Orbital facilities and small starships

[yallambie]

In Your Traveller Universe, are ships like Free Traders that are designed to enter atmosphere also capable of docking externally to a High Port to transfer cargo, or do they rely on being able to completely enter a pressurisable bay?

I tend to over-think things. It seems to me there are significant trade-offs in ship layout for atmospheric streamlining (even without an actual airframe configuration) vs a sufficiently large cargo hatch that allows for docking in space.

For it to work you have to have (several) standard hatch sizes/designs but using a pressurisable bay means the high port has to be much bigger and will need much more atmosphere replenishment (you will never pump completely to vacuum in a very large volume).

As I said, probably over-thinking but I was going to try to design a A1 and trying to locate hatches, hold shape to accommodate standard containers, fuel scoops (and am I going to have to board passengers through the cargo hatch and station umbilicals too or is there a standard personnel hatch a standard distance from a cargo hatch?), thrust plates, CG plates, sensors, landing gear, all to not interfere with one another, is giving me an appreciation of aerospace engineers / naval architects.

 

[whartung]

In T-Shirt Traveller, unlikely since the cargo is much more useful on the ground, with wide open spaces to land, and offer utility vehicles, etc.

It's also much cheaper to pave acres of land than it is to build large boxes in space.

In Big Ship Traveller, the ships are so large, a Free Trader can easily slip in somewhere. They can then anchor it to Something, and just use zero-g or grav assisted maneuver trators to unload cargo, even if the ship is "parked" in "mid-air". No need to land, just open the door. Can even work in vacuum.

Obviously, if High Port hard dock is common, then the traders will accommodate. Gotta make a buck somehow.

 

[kilemall]

The CT rule is take on cargo ground deliver to ground, take on cargo in space deliver in space. So most high ports should have accommodations.

Rather then class specialized cargo docks or landing bays, I would envision a general large docking clamp that would cover the main hatch and allow for a pressurized gangway to the ship’s cargo.

 

[Condottiere]

It's a tough question, in the sense that you would assume that they'd use the path of least resistance, and minimal cost.

In an organized starport, they'd separate the arriving spacecraft by size and function, so that they wouldn't get in each other's way.

You could park outside, and transfers could take place with smallcraft, whether passengers or cargo.

If the spacecraft needs maintenance, you could be allocated an interior dock, and get charged accordingly.

Otherwise a pier, with tubes connected to the primary airlock and cargo hatch.

Power and fuel cables could also be attached.

 

[casquilho]

It's a tough question, in the sense that you would assume that they'd use the path of least resistance, and minimal cost.

In an organized starport, they'd separate the arriving spacecraft by size and function, so that they wouldn't get in each other's way.

You could park outside, and transfers could take place with smallcraft, whether passengers or cargo.

If the spacecraft needs maintenance, you could be allocated an interior dock, and get charged accordingly.

Otherwise a pier, with tubes connected to the primary airlock and cargo hatch.

Power and fuel cables could also be attached.

For the larger Starports, I have always imagined a space version of the boat docks of today. You have literally commercial areas, public areas, repair facilities, and even private docking areas. What services are available and how long you wait to get in all depends on what you are paying for and where you want to get into. There are even pre-reserved docking areas for specific companies or types of cargo (fuel docks vs container docks for example). Not saying it would match 100%, but by thinking of how docks are run today, it helped me imagine what space ports would be like as well.

 

[Condottiere]

You'd assume the Imperium run starports are somewhat standardized, even if it's tiered.

The really fascinating ones would be those outside of Imperium control.

And, for the really large ones, you'd have multiple space stations, specializing in particular niche, whether large freighters, passengers, small traders, passengers, and private yachts.

Though I think, marinas would be defined as spaceports.

 

[casquilho]

You'd assume the Imperium run starports are somewhat standardized, even if it's tiered.

The really fascinating ones would be those outside of Imperium control.

And, for the really large ones, you'd have multiple space stations, specializing in particular niche, whether large freighters, passengers, small traders, passengers, and private yachts.

Though I think, marinas would be defined as spaceports.

No, I was not assuming that. Like various ports along the California coast, each is very different but there are some commonalities. But no, I am not assuming they are standardized at all, rather they would reflect the place they support and the type of traffic they receive.

 

[whartung]

But no, I am not assuming they are standardized at all, rather they would reflect the place they support and the type of traffic they receive.

But at that level, they'd be standardized. If all you support is "small ship", then whatever is "standard" for small ship freighter, that's what you would do.

I mean, honestly, there's no innovation in this space. Space freight has been happening for a 1000 years. We're approaching the 70th anniversary of the "modern" shipping container. And it hasn't changed dramatically in all that time. (And yes, like many things, the modern shipping container is based on the size of a horses butt, since that determined road sizes, and that determined truck sizes, and the containers were originally designed for trucks -- imagine containers in the 3rd Imperium being based on Terran beast of burdens butt! There's a story for the grandchildren!). Different container types, but the now-existing infrastructure essentially punishes "out of the box" thinking.

So, whatever They (those shipping magnate folks that like efficient shipping, you know, trader captains, people shipping freight, people buying freight) figured out was a "good idea" for intersystem and interstellar shipping 500 years ago, they're probably still doing it!

 

[Bartleby]

In Your Traveller Universe, are ships like Free Traders that are designed to enter atmosphere also capable of docking externally to a High Port to transfer cargo, or do they rely on being able to completely enter a pressurisable bay?

IMTU answers to questions like these is almost always "sometimes". Try not to worry about an answer that will apply to every starport across your chartered space. Some places they do, some places they don't, for all kinds of different reasons.

I totally understand where @whartung is coming from when he says it is natural to assume these things would be standardized by now. But the truth is it is way easier for the ref, and more interesting for the players, if the answer is always different.

If they have a free trader, maybe one system won't let them dock at the high port. The next one demands they do for security or god knows what purpose. Then the third system give the characters an option.

Differences also help bring your universe alive so everything doesn't seem like the same starport they have seen a thousand times. Little things like this can make things memorable.

 

[casquilho]

But at that level, they'd be standardized. If all you support is "small ship", then whatever is "standard" for small ship freighter, that's what you would do.

I mean, honestly, there's no innovation in this space. Space freight has been happening for a 1000 years. We're approaching the 70th anniversary of the "modern" shipping container. And it hasn't changed dramatically in all that time. (And yes, like many things, the modern shipping container is based on the size of a horses butt, since that determined road sizes, and that determined truck sizes, and the containers were originally designed for trucks -- imagine containers in the 3rd Imperium being based on Terran beast of burdens butt! There's a story for the grandchildren!). Different container types, but the now-existing infrastructure essentially punishes "out of the box" thinking.

So, whatever They (those shipping magnate folks that like efficient shipping, you know, trader captains, people shipping freight, people buying freight) figured out was a "good idea" for intersystem and interstellar shipping 500 years ago, they're probably still doing it!

While I agree the box itself maybe standardized (or in truth several standard sizes - see ISO standardization documents). How they are handled, handed off, used, is not as standardized as you may think. Some are loaded onto ships, taken to a port hundreds of miles from their final destination, placed on railroad cars or trucks or flatbed trucks with hydraulic rollers and taken to planes or to warehouses where they are opened and the cargo is palatized and placed into larger trailers and then on the other end placed onto smaller trucks and taken to warehouses where they are broken down even more. I have even watched a sea container get unloaded right into a different sea container because the receiving ship had a different size restriction.

So no, I do not believe it has to be standardized to the point you could not see different star ports handling the cargo/visiting ships differently. The needs of a specific planet government/company/shipping method could impact what is seen as the "standard" for a particular location or product.

 

[whartung]

How they are handled, handed off, used, is not as standardized as you may think.

Considering the topic is about loading/unloading trader starships, where it comes from before its loaded, or where it goes after its unloaded isn't particularly germane.

I can't say I'm any kind of expert on the matter, but at 10,000 feet, from photos I've seen, watching trains go by, trucks on the street, driving by the harbor, seeing photos in other countries: for containerized intermodal shipping, the boats look pretty much the same, the cranes that load and offload those boats look pretty much, functionally, the same. The trailers and tractors that drag them around the port look pretty much the same. The freight cars look pretty much the same, and the trucks that drag them across the country look pretty much the same.

How they're routed, where they're stored, how it's taxed, who's driving the truck -- not really that important. Something the trader captain probably doesn't put a lot of thought into. Anonymous boxes moving through a faceless infrastructure.

 

[kilemall]

Considering the topic is about loading/unloading trader starships, where it comes from before its loaded, or where it goes after its unloaded isn't particularly germane.

I can't say I'm any kind of expert on the matter, but at 10,000 feet, from photos I've seen, watching trains go by, trucks on the street, driving by the harbor, seeing photos in other countries: for containerized intermodal shipping, the boats look pretty much the same, the cranes that load and offload those boats look pretty much, functionally, the same. The trailers and tractors that drag them around the port look pretty much the same. The freight cars look pretty much the same, and the trucks that drag them across the country look pretty much the same.

How they're routed, where they're stored, how it's taxed, who's driving the truck -- not really that important. Something the trader captain probably doesn't put a lot of thought into. Anonymous boxes moving through a faceless infrastructure.

Unless the cargo IS the adventure.

Smuggling.

Heist.

Recovery/stop of heist.

Getting a cargo back that had something that should not have been aboard.

 

[casquilho]

Considering the topic is about loading/unloading trader starships, where it comes from before its loaded, or where it goes after its unloaded isn't particularly germane.

I can't say I'm any kind of expert on the matter, but at 10,000 feet, from photos I've seen, watching trains go by, trucks on the street, driving by the harbor, seeing photos in other countries: for containerized intermodal shipping, the boats look pretty much the same, the cranes that load and offload those boats look pretty much, functionally, the same. The trailers and tractors that drag them around the port look pretty much the same. The freight cars look pretty much the same, and the trucks that drag them across the country look pretty much the same.

How they're routed, where they're stored, how it's taxed, who's driving the truck -- not really that important. Something the trader captain probably doesn't put a lot of thought into. Anonymous boxes moving through a faceless infrastructure.

Sorry, I forgot what forum I was on. Enjoy playing the game you want to play the way you want to play it. I would never think to suggest you change what you want to think nor do.

Have fun.

 

[ManOfGrey]

I tend to over-think things. It seems to me there are significant trade-offs in ship layout for atmospheric streamlining (even without an actual airframe configuration) vs a sufficiently large cargo hatch that allows for docking in space.

For it to work you have to have (several) standard hatch sizes/designs but using a pressurisable bay means the high port has to be much bigger and will need much more atmosphere replenishment (you will never pump completely to vacuum in a very large volume).

As I said, probably over-thinking but I was going to try to design a A1 and trying to locate hatches, hold shape to accommodate standard containers, fuel scoops (and am I going to have to board passengers through the cargo hatch and station umbilicals too or is there a standard personnel hatch a standard distance from a cargo hatch?), thrust plates, CG plates, sensors, landing gear, all to not interfere with one another, is giving me an appreciation of aerospace engineers / naval architects.

May I take a moment and suggest, perhaps, a simpler solution? In this video game I play, Star Citizen, they had an orbital space station called Port Olisar. It was a very popular place to land because it was in orbit, which saved the time and effort of flying all the way to the surface of the planet, and it was simple to dock at. It was the only port that did not have docking bays. It simply had landing pads you VTOLed down to. The pads were exposed to space, so you had to exit your ship in a space suit and walk to an air lock to enter the station.

It seems to me, especially if your Free Trader has a cargo ramp that just extends down and allows cargo to be unloaded by simply walking, or driving, up and down this ramp, a gang of cargo robots could unload a Free Trader in a matter of minutes at such a place.

Anyway... just a thought.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The pads were exposed to space, so you had to exit your ship in a space suit and walk to an air lock to enter the station.

Say it with me everyone!



Tarmac in SPAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

 

[Condottiere]

For brake friction.

 

[kilemall]

May I take a moment and suggest, perhaps, a simpler solution? In this video game I play, Star Citizen, they had an orbital space station called Port Olisar. It was a very popular place to land because it was in orbit, which saved the time and effort of flying all the way to the surface of the planet, and it was simple to dock at. It was the only port that did not have docking bays. It simply had landing pads you VTOLed down to. The pads were exposed to space, so you had to exit your ship in a space suit and walk to an air lock to enter the station.

It seems to me, especially if your Free Trader has a cargo ramp that just extends down and allows cargo to be unloaded by simply walking, or driving, up and down this ramp, a gang of cargo robots could unload a Free Trader in a matter of minutes at such a place.

Anyway... just a thought.


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Problem is cargo that can’t handle vacuum.

 

[PulseStar]

In my Traveller Universe...planetary produce and local products are primarily picked up at the Downport. This is where most of the Trade is accomplished. Passengers primarily come from here also.

The Highport is where Freight is processed and Mail makes its way across the sectors. Passengers who are just passing through to another system are at the HIghport. These are usually drifters or the desperate.

Again, as others have said, this is how I use it in my games, with there being exceptions in some places and with some NPCs.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Problem is cargo that can’t handle vacuum.

Certainly a valid point. Cargo could, of course, be shipped in standardized, pressurized, air-tight containers.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Cargo could, of course, be shipped in standardized, pressurized, air-tight containers.

The way that I would handle that question would be to repurpose Demountable Fuel Tanks (Cr1000 per ton in CT).
Integral fuel tanks cost Cr0 per ton.
Cargo Holds cost Cr0 per ton.
So what you wind up with are "Demountable Cargo Pods" that cost Cr1000 per ton to construct. Done.

Just like with Demountable Tanks that can be installed (and plumbed) inside a starship's Cargo Hold ... Demountable Cargo Pods can be loaded into a starship's Cargo Hold. The purpose of the Demountable Cargo Pod is to provide a (fragile!) pressurized container to put cargo into that you don't want to accidentally expose to vacuum during transport.

This would be a "level of detail" further than is strictly necessary (or typically useful) for Traveller Players and Referees to know about, particularly in a Starship Merchant context (cargo is cargo, don't need to know what it's packed into or how).