• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

OT: my copy of Full Thrust has arrived

Thrust 2, weak hull, unarmed, 8 or so fighter groups. For the cost, you can deploy these in a fleet engagement and generally beat the tar out of your opposition that has more conventional forces with equal point costs.

You don't seem to see the fighter imbalances as badly with FB ships, unless you start piling on 12+ fighter groups against an enemy with non and with standard FB ships (little PDS/ADFC).

But when you have custom rules for creating SBCs, you can really go to town. I watched 25 fighter groups eat through an equivalent force of ESU ships (including 3 Komarovs) with ease. They killed a few PDS escorts first, then one by one ate their way through the Komarovs. The way that fighter attacks work, they only had to deal with one Komarov's guns at any given time (and only the PDS) and they hit with all surviving groups each round on one target - boom goes a Komarov every round.

The point being that there are many ways to abuse the existing fighter rules that point values do not acknowledge. It generally boils down to:

A has more fighter than B, by a significant margin (say as few as 20% more), B is in dire trouble.

A and B have about the same (+/- 15% each way say), then the game can be quite fair.

B has more fighters than A, A is in dire trouble.

Fighters just don't scale gracefully vs. existing PDS and ADFC nets. And FB designs further exacerbate the issue if run vs. custom designs of the same Point Value, but of free form construction, such as the SBC fleet.

Trust me, this problem has seen more attempted solutions and more test-list discussion than any other single issue, I believe.
 
Thrust 2, weak hull, unarmed, 8 or so fighter groups. For the cost, you can deploy these in a fleet engagement and generally beat the tar out of your opposition that has more conventional forces with equal point costs.

You don't seem to see the fighter imbalances as badly with FB ships, unless you start piling on 12+ fighter groups against an enemy with non and with standard FB ships (little PDS/ADFC).

But when you have custom rules for creating SBCs, you can really go to town. I watched 25 fighter groups eat through an equivalent force of ESU ships (including 3 Komarovs) with ease. They killed a few PDS escorts first, then one by one ate their way through the Komarovs. The way that fighter attacks work, they only had to deal with one Komarov's guns at any given time (and only the PDS) and they hit with all surviving groups each round on one target - boom goes a Komarov every round.

The point being that there are many ways to abuse the existing fighter rules that point values do not acknowledge. It generally boils down to:

A has more fighter than B, by a significant margin (say as few as 20% more), B is in dire trouble.

A and B have about the same (+/- 15% each way say), then the game can be quite fair.

B has more fighters than A, A is in dire trouble.

Fighters just don't scale gracefully vs. existing PDS and ADFC nets. And FB designs further exacerbate the issue if run vs. custom designs of the same Point Value, but of free form construction, such as the SBC fleet.

Trust me, this problem has seen more attempted solutions and more test-list discussion than any other single issue, I believe.
 
It seems that Mark Siefert is not the only FT-GZG mailing list regular that also frequents this board. I used to participate actively on the list (many years ago, though not under an alias), and have been catching up on all the archives.

While I have not yet have a chance to check out Power Projection, I look forward to doing so.

I'll also echo the comments of others - Enjoy Full Thrust - it's a fun, fast system...
 
It seems that Mark Siefert is not the only FT-GZG mailing list regular that also frequents this board. I used to participate actively on the list (many years ago, though not under an alias), and have been catching up on all the archives.

While I have not yet have a chance to check out Power Projection, I look forward to doing so.

I'll also echo the comments of others - Enjoy Full Thrust - it's a fun, fast system...
 
I've been playing around with fighters in PP:F, and while they don't seem to be as dangerous as you describe them as being in FT(FB), fighters are more useful in PP:F than they are in HG space combat.
 
I've been playing around with fighters in PP:F, and while they don't seem to be as dangerous as you describe them as being in FT(FB), fighters are more useful in PP:F than they are in HG space combat.
 
I've extensively used fighters in EFSB; never found them overwhelming. (In fact, found them somewhat WEAK vs ships.)

Some of the new weapons therein (Wish I had the design stats!) make fighters die fast. Narn Energy mines, to be specific. (Nominate target point before movement. Move. Apply deviation, and resolve NEM. Fire phase.) If you catch fighters in the effect of an NEM, they die.
 
I've extensively used fighters in EFSB; never found them overwhelming. (In fact, found them somewhat WEAK vs ships.)

Some of the new weapons therein (Wish I had the design stats!) make fighters die fast. Narn Energy mines, to be specific. (Nominate target point before movement. Move. Apply deviation, and resolve NEM. Fire phase.) If you catch fighters in the effect of an NEM, they die.
 
EFSB != FT though.

In classic FT, there is no area weapon that kills fighters. And beams can saw ships to bits. This is not FT, even FB FT. So, the net effect is that SBCs in classic or FB FT can kill capships and others out of all proportion.

EFSB is its own game. Area weapons would be one solution, though they may (as you note) go the other way, which isn't any better.

When I put X points of ships (of any type) on the table, I want to hope the fight will be about even if the enemy brings X, regardless of ship choices and of X's actual number. This does not work out with fighters right now in FT.
 
EFSB != FT though.

In classic FT, there is no area weapon that kills fighters. And beams can saw ships to bits. This is not FT, even FB FT. So, the net effect is that SBCs in classic or FB FT can kill capships and others out of all proportion.

EFSB is its own game. Area weapons would be one solution, though they may (as you note) go the other way, which isn't any better.

When I put X points of ships (of any type) on the table, I want to hope the fight will be about even if the enemy brings X, regardless of ship choices and of X's actual number. This does not work out with fighters right now in FT.
 
Wow a lot of feedback! Haven't checked the form in several days.

After work I have been reading David Webber's "On Basilisk Station" and reading my FT rules. Also I have been looking at the interesting FT Java program.

Thanks for the encouragement and very interesting the rules analysis! Yes I probably will be interested in PP at some point.

S! (=salute)
 
Wow a lot of feedback! Haven't checked the form in several days.

After work I have been reading David Webber's "On Basilisk Station" and reading my FT rules. Also I have been looking at the interesting FT Java program.

Thanks for the encouragement and very interesting the rules analysis! Yes I probably will be interested in PP at some point.

S! (=salute)
 
FT Java is pretty cool too. Jon and Dan did a good job developing it. Well worth a play and I'm sure you can find an opponent to give you a game
 
FT Java is pretty cool too. Jon and Dan did a good job developing it. Well worth a play and I'm sure you can find an opponent to give you a game
 
Kaladorn: where is FTJ?

Also, EFSB is a superset of FB FT. Jon really should file of the names, and absorb the mechanics back. Jon even said it was, when I asked him. (I thought it was possibly unlicensed, and Jon pointed out they paid him for a variant)

Biggest thing I can see a problem with is that FT has those anti-shipping fighters.
 
Kaladorn: where is FTJ?

Also, EFSB is a superset of FB FT. Jon really should file of the names, and absorb the mechanics back. Jon even said it was, when I asked him. (I thought it was possibly unlicensed, and Jon pointed out they paid him for a variant)

Biggest thing I can see a problem with is that FT has those anti-shipping fighters.
 
FT Java looks very cool and I will have to fully explore it.

Now if it could only be adapted to PP:F so we could have a Java version of that for playing TRAVELLER on-line.
 
FT Java looks very cool and I will have to fully explore it.

Now if it could only be adapted to PP:F so we could have a Java version of that for playing TRAVELLER on-line.
 
Back
Top