Overtonnage

[RogerD]

The TL9 scout I'm designing with an Experimental Jump Drive-9 is going to need to be overtonnage to accomodate the increased drive size if nothing else. It seems like overtonnage does not impact anything aside from a very specific list of items about agility and such. I think this means my 100 ton Scout can really be 149 tons and still retain the potential as if it were a 100 ton ship. Is that accurate?

I have built my scout in the same vein as the TL=12 scout presented, replacing drives and other gear with lower level equipment. Naturally, putting an Experimental B drive in place of the original A drive causes overtonnage. I'm just trying to figure out how this should be handled.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think this means my 100 ton Scout can really be 149 tons and still retain the potential as if it were a 100 ton ship. Is that accurate?

Yes, unfortunately.

I think it's to make things simpler, but it's a highly exploitable mechanic.

 

[RogerD]

OK, thank you. And I see by the example of the Beowulf that the fuel formulae are based on the base tonnage, not the final tonnage.

I personally don't see why the formula-based systems were so hard to use, but in my case it will turn out to be useful to be able to exploit this. My 100 ton scout ship probably blows up to be quite large without this loophole.

I don't think "All designs subject to Referee approval" is stated, but is the solution to all issues with exploitation.

 

[kilemall]

Whew I haven’t dug into T5 ship design, but I definitely would charge fuel on a per real ton basis.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Fuel requirements does not change, but power plant fuel consumption does increase as per a separate table (p51).

Much simpler, right...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The TL9 scout I'm designing with an Experimental Jump Drive-9 is going to need to be overtonnage to accomodate the increased drive size if nothing else. It seems like overtonnage does not impact anything aside from a very specific list of items about agility and such. I think this means my 100 ton Scout can really be 149 tons and still retain the potential as if it were a 100 ton ship. Is that accurate?

I have built my scout in the same vein as the TL=12 scout presented, replacing drives and other gear with lower level equipment. Naturally, putting an Experimental B drive in place of the original A drive causes overtonnage. I'm just trying to figure out how this should be handled.

J-2 is a TL-11 technology, so at TL-9 you only need a Prototype jump drive for J-2. Saves quite a lot of space (& money)...

You might also want an Early M-2 drive?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I get something like this:

Size in Dton is the blue column, the next column is cost in MCr.

It's possible to squeeze into 100 Dt...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You made me find a bug in my spreadsheet, thanks!

 

[RogerD]

The ship I'm working on is the first jump ship ever. I know that in theory you can produce a jump drive at TL6, but you need to have the technological breakthrough first. The paradigm shift rules say "Make each roll upon achieving the Roll At TL. If successful, the species determines that the technology is theoretically possible and they can build an Experimental stage version at the Flux-indicated TL. (BBB2, p. 241, notes on Table A).

As I've noted in some other threads, it isn't precisely clear what additional impact the paradigm shift should have.

Since both Gravitics and Jump are paradigm shifts, to get them at TL9 requires a Flux roll of +5 each. I'm assuming the human race makes both those rolls despite the long odds and this is the first ship to come out of that. My intended campaign is not OTU.

Given they must be experimental stage, the drives themselves need to be Exp Jump-B, Exp Maneuver-B to overcome the Efficiency problems in a Hull-A. This will give 1G and Jump-1, not Jump 2. The good news is that the jump fuel needed is still 20 tons. I currently have an Imp Power Plant-A in there.

This is my first T5 ship and it's taking me longer than I'd like to work out all the details. I'll post them when I'm done.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Reasonably they would start with J-1, as you say.

An Exp Jump drive B would give J-2 (the table gives potential 4, multiplied by Efficiency 50% is J-2).
An Exp Jump drive A would give J-1 (the table gives potential 2, multiplied by Efficiency 50% is J-1).

Same for M-drive.

A Power Plant A gives potential 2. While perhaps unclear, I would hesitate to allow an Imp PP-A giving potential 1 (limited to 1 at base TL-8). I would just let it be a Std PP-2. Extra power doesn't hurt?

Something like this?

This is my first T5 ship and it's taking me longer than I'd like to work out all the details.

Welcome to the club...

 

[RogerD]

Gah, I think some of the examples about experimental drives confused me. Most of them are based on a 200 ton hull. You're 100% correct of course. This will save a few tons. Thanks!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Interesting, I have never tried to make such a desperately low tech ship before.

First iteration I get:
100 Dt, J-1, M-1, fuel for two jumps, 20 Dt overtonnage
Three crew with fairly spacious quarters, can house six in a pinch.
Some reserved space for an extra console and turret.

Using a 100 Dton streamlined hull, it has a J Drive A, a M Drive A, and a P Plant A giving performance of jump-1 and 1 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 43 Dton, enough for 6 weeks and 2 jump-1. Controls consists of two control consoles, five operating consoles, a m/1 computer, and a m/1/bis computer with Ergonomics 2. There are five sensors: a communicator, a radar, a scope, a neutrino sensor, and a grav sensor. Crew accomodations consists of three staterooms with a Comfort of 4. Cargo capacity is 3 Dton. The ship requires a crew of three: a pilot, an astrogator, and an engineer. The ship costs MCr 457,11.

TL-9   S-AA11                        Ergo 2   Comfort 4    Demand 0        Agility 0
       Scout                         Total:       -  20         457        Stability 1
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST   
                                                                      
Hull                                                100               
Config: Airframe                                                  9   
Structure: Plate Plate         AV=4 ( 45 vs Blast, 4,5 vs Pen, 1350 vs Heat/Beam, 45 vs Pres, 450 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 900 vs Heat/Beam  )   
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=4 ( 45 vs Blast, 4,5 vs Pen, 450 vs H/B, 450 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Landing Wheels Wilderness                                             
Wings Incr Perform                                                     
Fins Incr Agility                                                     
Lifters Installed                                                 1   
                                                                      
Drop Tanks (95% fuel)                     0                                -20  Hull
Total Drive Capacity                    100                                -20  Over/undertonnage: Agility -1
                                                                      
Jump Field: Jump Plate                                            0        Flash 8
Exp J Drive A  J-1, 50 EP                 1          30         300   TL6
Exp M Drive A  1 G, 50 EP                 1           6         120   TL6
P Plant A      P 2, 100 EP                1           4           4   
                                                                      
Fuel, Jump   J-2                                     40               
Fuel, Power  6 weeks                                  3               
                                                                      
Console, Control C+S=12                   2           4           1        Brain: INT=8, EDU=8
Console, Operati Gen C+S=12               5          10           3        Brain: INT=8, EDU=8
Computer m/1                              1           1           2   
Computer m/1/bis                          1           1           3   
                                                                      
Sensors                                                               
LR Surf Commu-9 +9A+9 PA(Elec)            1                       4     
AR Surf Radar-9 +9A+7 PA(Elec)            1                       2        ACS S=6
AR Surf Scope-9 +9A-- P(Phot)             1                       2        ACS S=4
SR Surf Neutr-9 +9A-- P(Grav)             1                       2        ACS S=5
Ear BR Surf Grav -9 +8A-- P(Gra           1                       2        ACS S=0
                                                                      
Crew:                                     4                           
Stateroom for 1                           3           6           0   
Freshers Shared                           2           1           1   
Common Areas                              5           5               
Life Support:                                                         
Med Console                               1           1           1   
Life Support, Standard 160%               1           1           1        150 person-days
Escape Capsules 100%                      1           1           1         10 people
                                                                      
Standard Air Lock                         2           1           0   
                                                                      
Cargo                                                 4               
Spare Space                                           3               
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels   
Crew                                 3                7          12   
Bridge Crew                          2    0                           
    Pilot                                 1           1           2   
    Astrogator                            1           1           0   
    Sensor Ops                            0           2           5   
Engineer                             1    0                           
    Engineer                              1           2           3   
Service Crew                         0    0                           
    Operations                            0           1           2

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Squeezing hard, out pops:
100 Dt, J-1, M-1, fuel for two jumps, No overtonnage.
Very cramped compartment for three crew.
Single airlock and a one Dton cargo hold for samples that serves as emergency airlock.
NOTHING extra...

TL-9   S-AA11                        Ergo 2   Comfort 1    Demand 0        Agility 1
       Scout                         Total:           0         451        Stability 2
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST   
                                                                      
Hull                                                100               
Config: Airframe                                                  9   
Structure: Plate Plate         AV=4 ( 45 vs Blast, 4,5 vs Pen, 1350 vs Heat/Beam, 45 vs Pres, 450 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 900 vs Heat/Beam  )   
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=4 ( 45 vs Blast, 4,5 vs Pen, 450 vs H/B, 450 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )   
Landing Wheels Wilderness                                             
Wings Incr Perform                                                     
Fins Incr Agility                                                     
Lifters Not installed                                                 
                                                                      
Jump Field: Jump Plate                                            0        Flash 8
Exp J Drive A  J-1, 50 EP                 1          30         300   TL6
Exp M Drive A  1 G, 50 EP                 1           6         120   TL6
P Plant A      P 2, 100 EP                1           4           4   
                                                                      
Fuel, Jump   J-2                                     40               
Fuel, Power  4 weeks                                  2               
                                                                      
Console, Control C+S=12                   2           4           1        Brain: INT=8, EDU=8
Console, Operati Gen C+S=12               4           8           2        Brain: INT=8, EDU=8
Computer m/1                              1           1           2   
                                                                      
Sensors                                                               
LR Surf Commu-9 +9A+9 PA(Elec)            1                       4     
AR Surf Radar-9 +9A+7 PA(Elec)            1                       2        ACS S=6
AR Surf Scope-9 +9A-- P(Phot)             1                       2        ACS S=4
SR Surf Neutr-9 +9A-- P(Grav)             1                       2        ACS S=5
Ear BR Surf Grav -9 +8A-- P(Gra           1                       2        ACS S=0
                                                                      
Crew:                                     1                           
Stateroom for 3                           1           2           0   
Freshers Shared                           1           0.5         0.5   
Common Areas                              1           0.5               
Life Support:                                                         
Med Console                               1           0.5         0.5   
Life Support, Standard 150%               1           0.5         0.5      150 person-days
                                                                      
Standard Air Lock                         1                           
Custom Air Lock                                       1           0   
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                                                      
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels   
Crew                                 3                6          10   
Bridge Crew                          2    0                           
    Pilot                                 1           1           1   
    Astrogator                            1           1           0   
    Sensor Ops                            0           1           5   
Engineer                             1    0                           
    Engineer                              1           2           3   
Service Crew                         0    0                           
    Operations                            0           1           1

 

[RogerD]

Here is what I came up with, still a work in progress.

This ship's mission is to jump to an adjacent system, survey the location of its planets, choose one of the planets to fly to, set down on the planet, explore a little bit (mainly gathering data), refuel and return.

Describing it in the long format:

Using a 100 Dton lifting body hull, it has a J Drive A, a M Drive A, and a P Plant A giving performance of jump-1 and 1 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 22 Dton, enough for 4 weeks and one jump-1.
Controls consists of two control consoles, six operating consoles and a m/1/bis computer with Ergonomics 1.
There is a single quad-turret with a hybrid sand-laser-missile launcher.
There are fifteen sensors: a communicator, a scope, an EMS, a neutrino detector, a radar, an Activity Sensor, a Deep Radar, a Densitometer, a Life Detector, a Mass Sensor, a Radiation Sensor, a Field Sensor, a Sniffer, a Proximeter and a Sound Sensor.
Crew accommodations consists of four staterooms with a Comfort of 5.
Cargo capacity is 0 Dton. It carries a wheeled ATV in an internal compartment. The ship requires a crew of four: a pilot, an astrogator, an engineer and a sensor operator. The ship costs MCr 487,31.

 

[RogerD]

Looking over your version, I have to say that I really like the concept that this ship would carry an extra jump's worth of fuel. That does two great things - it makes sure there is enough for the return journey without having to refuel and it allows for a riskier 2pc exploration. I also liked the escape pods you added. It is interesting that those things and more cargo space or even more crew and consoles could be added via the overtonnage idea - my design had 36 tons available to play with before having to go to a Hull-B.

If the mission were revised to simply be a type II survey with no possibility of landing, the number of sensors could be reduced and there is no need for an ATV. The config could change too. The ship could be space-only and the landing gear could be ditched. The ship could carry some Type Z sensor missiles to probe habitable-looking planets further before returning home.

Another design I've thought of messing with is a rocket based version instead of M-drive. Getting both at exactly TL 9 is very unusual. The TL for gravitics works out to be 14+Flux and for Jump it is 39-6*Flux. A rocket-based version might not need a lot of burns available. The mission could start from a space station or support ship outside the diameter limit, jump into the system, look for planets from a distance and otherwise gather data and then jump back without needing too much delta v.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Looking over your version, I have to say that I really like the concept that this ship would carry an extra jump's worth of fuel. That does two great things - it makes sure there is enough for the return journey without having to refuel and it allows for a riskier 2pc exploration. I also liked the escape pods you added. It is interesting that those things and more cargo space or even more crew and consoles could be added via the overtonnage idea - my design had 36 tons available to play with before having to go to a Hull-B.

If the mission were revised to simply be a type II survey with no possibility of landing, the number of sensors could be reduced and there is no need for an ATV. The config could change too. The ship could be space-only and the landing gear could be ditched. The ship could carry some Type Z sensor missiles to probe habitable-looking planets further before returning home.

I was thinking the first ship would be a proof of concept, before concepts like wilderness refuelling was developed. Pop in a nearby system, look around, identify objects for closer exploration.

Your landing ship would be the second generation ship?

Another design I've thought of messing with is a rocket based version instead of M-drive. Getting both at exactly TL 9 is very unusual. The TL for gravitics works out to be 14+Flux and for Jump it is 39-6*Flux. A rocket-based version might not need a lot of burns available. The mission could start from a space station or support ship outside the diameter limit, jump into the system, look for planets from a distance and otherwise gather data and then jump back without needing too much delta v.

Absolutely, that would work.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Describing it in the long format:

Using a 100 Dton lifting body hull, it has a J Drive A, a M Drive A, and a P Plant A giving performance of jump-1 and 1 g acceleration. There is fuel tankage of 22 Dton, enough for 4 weeks and one jump-1.

A Lifting Body comes with limited armour, further lowered by jump plates, it can be a bit fragile?
An Airframe comes with Wings, Fins, and landing gear at no extra tonnage, on the other hand Floatation is extra.

If you want to land and stay awhile, you might want more than 4 weeks of power?
If you want to refuel from standing water, you might want a Water Intake and a Purifier for it?

Controls consists of two control consoles, six operating consoles and a m/1/bis computer with Ergonomics 1.
...
There are fifteen sensors: a communicator, a scope, an EMS, a neutrino detector, a radar, an Activity Sensor, a Deep Radar, a Densitometer, a Life Detector, a Mass Sensor, a Radiation Sensor, a Field Sensor, a Sniffer, a Proximeter and a Sound Sensor.

Because of the distressing tendency of T5 consoles to malfunction (B2 p92: Mishap), you probably want to keep Ergonomics up.
Having all the sensors is great, but comes at a cost in controls.

You might want to include a Brain in each console, so that they can resolve tasks without a crew-member supervising all the time, as computer capacity is limited (B2 p250: Consoles and Controllers). Four crew for eight consoles in three shifts limits the capability to actually use all the sensors?

It's only my prejudice, but I like to have a spare of everything cheap, e.g. Control Consoles. You need one for the pilot and one for the gunner, but I would upgrade one or two of the other consoles to Control Consoles, just to have a spare in case of malfunction.

Crew accommodations consists of four staterooms with a Comfort of 5.

With four crew and 19 Dton of accommodations, you have 19 / 4 = 4.75 in Comfort. As no rounding is specified, I would call that a DM of +4 on any rolls, such as Tension. Another Dton of e.g. common areas would get you +5.

You have a lot of Life Support? Each unit supports 10 people for 30 days, or 10 people for 120 days for Long Term. A single Dton (or two?) of Long Term Life Support should suffice?

 

[RogerD]

Thanks for the feedback. The controls part is on of the least worked out parts of my design and I’ll work on that especially in the next rev. What I have is based on the Murphy class.

I had been assuming that gas giant skimming had been solved in the local system first, but looking into the details of that inspired another thread here. The lifting body and landing legs came from the Murphy, but made sense to me since the original mission was to land and look around.

There is a conflict in the rules on how long fuel lasts that I hadn’t worked out yet. More fuel could certainly be beneficial. I don’t think I took into account the overtonnage ops fuel penalty. Having fuel for two jumps also means having a lot of ops fuel reserve you can use. You just have a decision point during the mission of whether you will refuel or not.

I have not been clear on whether you need scoops and intakes and bins to maximize fuel options or not. I also have not been clear whether additional purifiers are needed. The Murphy just has scoops, so I followed that idea.

I have thought about increasing the crew size to at least 8. Less comfortable but the mission could support it. That would bring it to one crew per console with no real changes needed otherwise. The computer can run two consoles automatically. I had been assuming that some consoles are not manned or used except when needed which would reduce crew load. On the other hand, having scientists along would help the mission.

 

[RogerD]

You might want to include a Brain in each console, so that they can resolve tasks without a crew-member supervising all the time, as computer capacity is limited (B2 p250: Consoles and Controllers). Four crew for eight consoles in three shifts limits the capability to actually use all the sensors?

I could wish that the tech levels had been listed in the chapters on brains and robots. I do see TL 11 for semi-organic brains and TL 12 for positronic brains. Cloning comes at TL 13. (BBB2, p.231) There is nothing at all about Organic brains or Electronic brains. I would rule that Organic brains come with Semi-organic brains (the tech to connect them and keep them alive is the same). Electronic brains seem to be essentially the same as computers, but somehow much smaller and cheaper.

I find it strange that for consoles, the Experimental higher tech consoles have a lower chance of succeeding in tasks. The optimal console is actually a lower tech version built to a higher standard per the chart on BB2, p.251. I think I might have designed it such that the TL is retained (so C+S+K is higher for Experimental) and that the Mod actually applies as a mod when checking consoles per the Ergonomics rules (so it is more likely to break down)

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Insofar as including brains in consoles... I've been fiddling with this path:
A console and a Mod/0 computer are pretty much the same thing per the rules
Consoles need deck space so a user can use them, and if they're all packed together it stresses people
So... looking at like 2 tons a piece.

Mod/0 computers do not need deck space. There's no controls.
So....
Install a console called "engineering" that controls:
4 Computer/0m+brain machines , with brain skills in Engineering/Power, Life, Manuver, Jump ...

Now your Engineer can log into the console, check with the AI's doing the work, and if something is getting freaky they can directly control things.

And a total of 2 tons for the console, and 1 ton of computers.