CT Only: Parrying rules

[sekalo]

So I am a little confused as to how to use the Parrying rules on p.35 of Book1 and does the negative DM stack with armor? For example:

Weapon skill of attacker 2
Weapon skill of target 2
Broadsword vs Combat Armor is a -4

Would that end up being a (-4 + -2) = -6 to hit roll?

This seems a little high on a 2d6 roll, and depending on skills, the player would need to roll a 12 in order to hit.

 

[Ildefonse]

My understanding is that it would be (+2-2-4) = -4 DM to hit (using your listed DM's above). It's unclear/unspecified if the weapon skill can be used only entirely as an Attack DM or Parrying DM (i.e., could a character decide to split their Blade-2 skill into +1 Attack DM and -1 Parrying DM?). I'd probably allow the split.

 

[kilemall]

Don’t forget the -2 to hit for a weakened attack, otherwise it counts against endurance.

A valid tactic would be to parry and weak attack in an attempt to wear out your opponent and stick them in a -2 rut.

 

[aramis]

So I am a little confused as to how to use the Parrying rules on p.35 of Book1 and does the negative DM stack with armor? For example:

Weapon skill of attacker 2
Weapon skill of target 2
Broadsword vs Combat Armor is a -4

Would that end up being a (-4 + -2) = -6 to hit roll?

This seems a little high on a 2d6 roll, and depending on skills, the player would need to roll a 12 in order to hit.

Real simple: parrying is automatic if you're armed with a ready melee weapon, and aware of the incoming melee/brawling attack. It just makes you (skill level with the ready melee weapon) harder to hit. No rolls by the parrying character.

One of the most realistic parry rules of the 1970's and 1980's, and still one of the better ones.

 

[Ildefonse]

So upon closer reading it does look like the intent is to apply the skill DM to both attack and defense situations: the same character in your example would apply a -2 DM to their opponents' rolls to hit, and apply a +2 DM to their attack.

 

[infojunky]

My understanding is that it would be (+2-2-4) = -4 DM to hit (using your listed DM's above). It's unclear/unspecified if the weapon skill can be used only entirely as an Attack DM or Parrying DM (i.e., could a character decide to split their Blade-2 skill into +1 Attack DM and -1 Parrying DM?). I'd probably allow the split.

That's how I read it, and have played it over the years.

 

[sekalo]

Thank you all for your help. I was very confused, and I should have included the 'attackers skill' bonus to hit in the formula; however, as I pointed out I was very confused.

I was trying to make a simple hex grid tactical combat event for my group, which they were thrown into a gladiator 'like' match on a sword and sandal planet (Think... planet Mongo).

Currently using the Mercator rule set; however, was very confused on the 'parry rules'.

 

[whulorigan]

Here is a follow-up question: Suppose you have a character who has a Medieval/Renaissance or other style "Shield" (e.g. Small/Medium Buckler or Target) in his/her off-hand and is using a "Sword" in the main hand and the person has Blade (Sword)-3. The person desires to "Block/Parry" with the shield while sword-fighting.

I do not recall if CT had a "Shield" skill under the "Barbarian" profession in Sup4:CotI. I know it did not have one elsewhere. How would one adjudicate the "dual-weapon" panoply? Do you need to invent the Shield skill (and set it to Shield-0 if you don't have the skill)? Or is there another methodology?

 

[aramis]

Here is a follow-up question: Suppose you have a character who has a Medieval/Renaissance or other style "Shield" (e.g. Small/Medium Buckler or Target) in his/her off-hand and is using a "Sword" in the main hand and the person has Blade (Sword)-3. The person desires to "Block/Parry" with the shield while sword-fighting.

I do not recall if CT had a "Shield" skill under the "Barbarian" profession in Sup4:CotI. I know it did not have one elsewhere. How would one adjudicate the "dual-weapon" panoply? Do you need to invent the Shield skill (and set it to Shield-0 if you don't have the skill)? Or is there another methodology?

No, it didn't.
I think CT's overdetailed on weapon skills.
I just assumed shields as cover.

 

[sekalo]

Here is a follow-up question: Suppose you have a character who has a Medieval/Renaissance or other style "Shield" (e.g. Small/Medium Buckler or Target) in his/her off-hand and is using a "Sword" in the main hand and the person has Blade (Sword)-3. The person desires to "Block/Parry" with the shield while sword-fighting.

I do not recall if CT had a "Shield" skill under the "Barbarian" profession in Sup4:CotI. I know it did not have one elsewhere. How would one adjudicate the "dual-weapon" panoply? Do you need to invent the Shield skill (and set it to Shield-0 if you don't have the skill)? Or is there another methodology?

You bring up an interesting point. Mercator rules p.14, "Only character with shields can now use their skill to parry", which is not bad; however, I have been using shields as cover just as Aramis does.

No, it didn't.
I think CT's overdetailed on weapon skills.
I just assumed shields as cover.

 

[whulorigan]

You bring up an interesting point. Mercator rules p.14, "Only character with shields can now use their skill to parry", which is not bad; however, I have been using shields as cover just as Aramis does.

There is definitely a difference between blocking with a (sufficiently large) shield, and parrying with a weapon or buckler.

 

[whartung]

Real simple: parrying is automatic if you're armed with a ready melee weapon, and aware of the incoming melee/brawling attack. It just makes you (skill level with the ready melee weapon) harder to hit. No rolls by the parrying character.

Dare I cite Indiana Jones at this juncture on how to cope with this situation?

 

[whulorigan]

Dare I cite Indiana Jones at this juncture on how to cope with this situation?

Sure, but what if you don't have a firearm handy?

 

[sekalo]

There is definitely a difference between blocking with a (sufficiently large) shield, and parrying with a weapon or buckler.

You have just given me an interesting idea, and make shield perform like a type of armor, or some bonus to armor values. What comes to mind, is the large Roman Shield Scutum and how it was stacked side to side to protect a group of legions.

 

[kilemall]

You have just given me an interesting idea, and make shield perform like a type of armor, or some bonus to armor values. What comes to mind, is the large Roman Shield Scutum and how it was stacked side to side to protect a group of legions.

I’ve gone into this quite a bit with Striker. Since I use hit location and apply armor effects after, I can determine how much area the shield covers, the player announces what the shield is covering, and it applies under double armor rules. Nicely covers both firearms and melee weapons.

Side benefit is angling shields increases armor effect, so it’s possible for a battle dress soldier to carry a 30kg slab shield and survive FGMP hits. Knights vs dragons.

For CT RAW, guess I’d do something like the vest armor that covers a bit less well, additive like reflec, and is only applied in the direction the shield is pointed.

 

[sekalo]

For CT RAW, guess I’d do something like the vest armor that covers a bit less well, additive like reflec, and is only applied in the direction the shield is pointed.

That is what I am currently doing with my hex grid, dungeon crawl with CT rules. The shield only provides its bonus to the front 3 hex, and this makes for a tactical game, since the rear 3 hex would be covered by armor or not.

 

[mike wightman]

Watch a few of these videos, they may change your mind on what real combat would look like...

Dequitem

I am Dequitem, an armoured fighter and filmer of non-choreographed knight fights like those: For combat sports the rule is: "You will fight the way you train, so train the way you want to fight". This principle applies to my training as well as to my short films. On my channel you will not...

www.youtube.com

 

[sekalo]

Watch a few of these videos, they may change your mind on what real combat would look like...

Dequitem

I am Dequitem, an armoured fighter and filmer of non-choreographed knight fights like those: For combat sports the rule is: "You will fight the way you train, so train the way you want to fight". This principle applies to my training as well as to my short films. On my channel you will not...

www.youtube.com

Those are some wild videos, and thank you for sharing.

I know my shield for front 3 hex vs rear hex open is not life like; however, it is just the right level of abstract I want for a simple hex map in a dungeon craw that offers 'some' combat options. However, I say 'some" combat options, since I do not want to turn it into the level of GURPS.

I am a big fan of the abstraction level of B/X and Battletech. Just enough to keep things interesting, but not too many so game play does not slow down. And with rules light, you can just make judgment calls on the spare of the moment.

To be honest, now days, since I am old, lazy and no time - I have been just running WarHammer 40k: hit,wound,damage roles with ideas from Barbarians of Lemuira for skills and magic.