Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I wonder what would happen if I deleted this. Might as well do it and find out.
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Passenger Transport Pods
- Thread starter Timerover51
- Start date
A standard stateroom (mid passage double occupancy) is 3X3 meters (includes fresher). So, sounds like you have 2 staterooms without any common space or life support (would be in Engineering).
Something like a collapsible stateroom for temporary quarters in the hold might be better. They could be 2mW x 1mH x 3mL with a communal fresher unit for every 4 shelters and they could be an alternative (or the what you end up with) to getting bumped when paying for Middle Passage.
The shelters could offer reasonable privacy, entertainment units built in, and be similar to those coffin hotels in Japan and stackable. When collapsed they could be stored at a fraction of the space so they only have to take up cargo tonnage if they are needed. If they are hexagonal in cross-section they an just fold up to about half their height. Maybe less? And the hex shape makes stacking them easy, with some latches to secure them to each other. You could probably fit a lot of them in a the hold of a bulk carrier.
The closest thing to this in CT is the small craft stateroom, though in a more spacious, and more permanent configuration. They run 100k Cr. and allow for double bunking but I think the coffin configuration would stick to single occupancy. And in the hold, depending on the ship, might not be the warmest, driest, and most comfortable place to spend a week in jump, but some people might not be able to afford better, or can't afford (for various reasons and some having nothing to do with money) to travel High so they'll put up with it. It could get 'colorful' down in the hold of some large bulk carrier.....gambling, drugs to make the trip easier, the various backgrounds of the passengers...
The shelters could offer reasonable privacy, entertainment units built in, and be similar to those coffin hotels in Japan and stackable. When collapsed they could be stored at a fraction of the space so they only have to take up cargo tonnage if they are needed. If they are hexagonal in cross-section they an just fold up to about half their height. Maybe less? And the hex shape makes stacking them easy, with some latches to secure them to each other. You could probably fit a lot of them in a the hold of a bulk carrier.
The closest thing to this in CT is the small craft stateroom, though in a more spacious, and more permanent configuration. They run 100k Cr. and allow for double bunking but I think the coffin configuration would stick to single occupancy. And in the hold, depending on the ship, might not be the warmest, driest, and most comfortable place to spend a week in jump, but some people might not be able to afford better, or can't afford (for various reasons and some having nothing to do with money) to travel High so they'll put up with it. It could get 'colorful' down in the hold of some large bulk carrier.....gambling, drugs to make the trip easier, the various backgrounds of the passengers...
In MT, I designed some that wound up being (after Std Design Discount) about MCr0.5 per SR. But they were 3x6x3 per SR, and included removable walls at one end to allow for common space. They match standard cargo units in size.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Actually, based on some deck plans of a Coast Guard ship that I have, it looks like you should be able to put 4 bunks in that space, along with some open area and lockers, with storage under the bottom bunk for each person.
As for life support, I am assuming some form of lithium-based CO2 scrubbers, with the CO2 being burnt off as needed. Electrolyze some water for additional oxygen using the power plant, and then react the CO2 with the H2 from the water, getting methane which I store and more oxygen. Extra "grey water" goes into a portable storage tank to be dumped upon landing. No more difficult than life support on one of the Navy's nuclear ballistic missile subs that stay submerged for a month at a time.
Aramis, once I find them, could I email you the deck plans of the Coast Guard ship for posting so that the forum can see what actual crew quarters look like. The deck plans were done by the National Park Service, and are public domains.
Sure, but unlike modern USCG, you don't have open air deck to allow for escaping claustrophobic enclosure sensations.
And, per the Traveller rules, 4Td per 2 person is maximum legal starship quartering*. But that does, in CT, include the LS/HVAC, freshers, and rec space. Things the USCG design board counts separately from quarters.
*The 2Td staterooms are intended for small craft and short durations - less than a week.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Well, an outfit in New Zealand is converting standard 20 foot shipping containers into cabins for 4 people, with space for a living area and kitchen, and 6 X 3 X 3 is larger than your standard 20 foot container. Based on those floor plans, 4 would not be overcrowding.
Also, assuming that these would be carried for something like emigrants, I suspect that they might be willing to put up with a bit of discomfort to get somewhere.
Life support and HVAC I am not that terribly worried about, as I am designing the ships for more than standard capacity, and Life Support is a bit overstated in the rules anyway. If you had jump and maneuvering drives now, a nuclear sub would make a nice starship if converted.
Also, assuming that these would be carried for something like emigrants, I suspect that they might be willing to put up with a bit of discomfort to get somewhere.
Life support and HVAC I am not that terribly worried about, as I am designing the ships for more than standard capacity, and Life Support is a bit overstated in the rules anyway. If you had jump and maneuvering drives now, a nuclear sub would make a nice starship if converted.
"life support" covers a lot of ground depending on the rules you are using. In fact, a small craft stateroom has support sufficient for two people but only in a less roomy arrangement. I think that if you just considered some sort of supplemental support package to go with the module to cover food, water, waste you would be good to go. At worst I think the air quality in the hold might suffer a little but that would just lend atmosphere to the situation, no pun intended.
It would be like making a passage form Europe to Australia in the hold of some tramp freighter or in a container ship box: no fun and it might smell bad after a while but if someone is desperate enough it could be survived.
There might be a safety limit imposed on ships for this sort of thing, though, and that might add another layer to the paperwork needed by ships who use these pods. Go too far beyond the safety limits and there could not only be fines, but passengers might have health problems or deaths from bad air.
Imagine coming across some derelict in space that dropped out of jumpspace with a dead crew and passengers packed in the hold in these pods when the crew got a little too greedy and took on too many for the trip. Creepy.
It would be like making a passage form Europe to Australia in the hold of some tramp freighter or in a container ship box: no fun and it might smell bad after a while but if someone is desperate enough it could be survived.
There might be a safety limit imposed on ships for this sort of thing, though, and that might add another layer to the paperwork needed by ships who use these pods. Go too far beyond the safety limits and there could not only be fines, but passengers might have health problems or deaths from bad air.
Imagine coming across some derelict in space that dropped out of jumpspace with a dead crew and passengers packed in the hold in these pods when the crew got a little too greedy and took on too many for the trip. Creepy.
Rather than stuff four humans into a shipping container for a week and seeing how many emerge still sane, It would probably be cheaper and easier to sit 8+ people in comfortable reclining chairs in a shipping container, administer a dose of Medical fast drug, and wake them at the destination.
Fast or no there is still the problem of adequate support for more people than the ship is rated for. A submarine, for example, could physically carry more people than it has bunks for but the air recyclers will be getting overloaded after a while. The sub can surface and refresh the system, but a ship cannot. In fact, the ship has a guaranteed week in jump + whatever time transiting to the jump point will entail before anyone can get fresh air on a world.
Fast drug will also increase their metabolisms and possibly cause a greater drain on the air supply which is added to the already strained support system on a Free Trader, say, that would normally hold 20 people max. LBB2 states that no stateroom may hold more than 2 people since it would strain the life support system.
Some way of determining how much 'support' is needed for every passenger added above the ship's capacity needs to be determined for this concept to work.
IIRC Fast drug slows metabolism to something like 24 hours of aging in 30 days, so they only need 6 hours of life support for a 1 week trip ... no food and a tiny tank of air.
So they wake up a little hungry and stiff from sleeping in a chair.
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You've got it backwards. Slow Drug is what accelerates metabolism (It "slows down the universe"); Fast Drug "Speeds up the universe" making the user perceive that time goes by fast.
Slow is a combat drug, doubling your metabolism.
"Fast drug is named because it makes the universe (to its user) appear to move much more quickly; the drug slows down personal metabolism at a ratio of approximately 60 to 1." (TTB, p. 106.)
Which would mean the 168 hours of a jump would seem to be 168 minutes... just shy of 3 hours... and lasts 60 reference days (1 personal perceived day).
Now, I'd not expect a 60:1 reduction in LS need (more like 5:1) but Traveller drugs Are Magic.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Fleet Ballistic Missiles subs do not surface like diesel boats to refresh air. They have CO2 scrubbers that remove the CO2, which is burned off as needed and then vented to the sea. They get additional oxygen from electrolyzing sea water, extracting the oxygen and venting the hydrogen. Basically, they can stay underwater as long as they have food, which is the absolute limit of endurance.
Per Traveller rules, if I'm remembering correctly, the 4 dT allotment includes space for other necessary living spaces including dining lounges and such. I therefore use the 2 dT small craft stateroom as only a room and a cramped fresher - maybe a narrow passage if the boat has multiple rooms; no cooking facilities beyond a small microwave and hotplate and a tiny little hotel-style fridge. You could live there for more than a week if you planned well, but you would not find the experience pleasant unless you were a hermit - or maybe a belt miner, they're a strange sort. And, yes, you could put two in there if they hotbunked and one of them spent half the day on the craft's bridge - otherwise, I'd be concerned that fisticuffs could break out after a few days.
Drawing on some architectural standards I came across, I allocate the 4 dT ship's stateroom space to include a 2dT bedroom, a half dT private fresher, and roughly 5/8 dT for halls and 7/8 dT for common space (a dining lounge, kitchen, laundry room, etc.). 2dT gives you just about a 10' by 10' room, which is small but comfortable for one person provided he gets to leave the room from time to time.
Whether some of those common rooms are rooms in the normal sense depends on available space - a subsidized liner deserves a proper kitchen, my big liners can squeeze a small pool and exercise room into the mix, but my scout's kitchen and laundry room are basically range, refrig, sink a bit of pantry space and a stacked washer dryer parked over on one side of the sole lounge (with a nice set of folding doors to close over them when not in use).
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Look... we're not talking First (1st) Class (high passage, 1 per 4dt sr), nor Second (2nd) Class (middle passage, 2 per 4dtsr or 1 per 3dtor2dt sr), nor even Cargo (low passage, cold sleep)... this here is Steerage (3rd class)!
Yes... the passenger class no one likes to talk about (the "corpsicles" of "low passage" get all the sensationalist press)... officially banned by the Imperium, but flourishing in fact to/from worlds of LL4 or less.
From RMS Titanic (a luxury ship... 2nd class resembled 1st class on earlier liners, and 3rd class was almost as comfy as 2nd class on those earlier liners):
1st class suites came with wardrobe rooms, private baths, and in some cases, private promenades.:
2nd class cabins had two to four berths per cabin, a washbasin, and a chamber pot to be used in case of seasickness. Second-class passengers used communal bathrooms.:
3rd class passengers slept on bunk beds in crowded quarters at four to six to a narrow cabin. Like second-class passengers, they shared bathrooms, but the number of people sharing a bathroom was much higher in third class: Only two bathtubs were available for all 710 third-class passengers, one for the men and one for the women.:
Other liners, as well as freighters, offered the old-style Steerage... no rooms, just a storage hold, with hammocks hanging in it, and a lidded iron pot for a "loo" (which the passengers had to empty themselves).
Hippies and religious types might like that, but insurance underwriters wouldn't.
Yes... the passenger class no one likes to talk about (the "corpsicles" of "low passage" get all the sensationalist press)... officially banned by the Imperium, but flourishing in fact to/from worlds of LL4 or less.
From RMS Titanic (a luxury ship... 2nd class resembled 1st class on earlier liners, and 3rd class was almost as comfy as 2nd class on those earlier liners):
1st class suites came with wardrobe rooms, private baths, and in some cases, private promenades.:
2nd class cabins had two to four berths per cabin, a washbasin, and a chamber pot to be used in case of seasickness. Second-class passengers used communal bathrooms.:
3rd class passengers slept on bunk beds in crowded quarters at four to six to a narrow cabin. Like second-class passengers, they shared bathrooms, but the number of people sharing a bathroom was much higher in third class: Only two bathtubs were available for all 710 third-class passengers, one for the men and one for the women.:
Other liners, as well as freighters, offered the old-style Steerage... no rooms, just a storage hold, with hammocks hanging in it, and a lidded iron pot for a "loo" (which the passengers had to empty themselves).
Hippies and religious types might like that, but insurance underwriters wouldn't.
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
From RMS Laconia, a "lesser" liner built contemporaneously with Titanic:
1st class (2-berth):
2nd class (4-berth):
3rd class (steerage)(4-berth, 6-berth also present):
1st class (2-berth):
2nd class (4-berth):
3rd class (steerage)(4-berth, 6-berth also present):
High Passage and Mid Passage are almost identical. Service is better for high passengers, but the food is the same (it costs the ship the same) and the accomodation is the same. Mid Passage is in single staterooms too. (GT changed that, but I believe the author made a mistake doing that; in any case I believe it was changed back in MgT (or am I wrong?)). Double occupancy is not mentioned in the rules (This is incomprehensible to me, since double occupancy is legal for private passengers and any rules against double occupancy thus easily cirtcumvented.) I agree that bunk beds should be an option, but only if the ship has extra life support installed. A ship that carries more than two people per stateroom would (IMO) be exceeding the life support rating, something that is not easy to get around.
Please try to note when you make a statement that is contrary to canon lest you confuse some hapless neophyte. Low berths are perfectly legal in the Imperium. Imperial organizations even issue ticket vouchers for low berth travel[*].
[*] Not quite canon but inferred from canon; I believe that the Low Passages characters leave Imperial organizations with are issued by those same orgaizations. 
EDIT: My apologies. I misread your statement. Please consider the above a public service message with no address to you personally.
Hans
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Actually, you're wrong on several small points.
CT only allows double occupancy for non-commercial craft.*
MT defines all passages as single occupancy in a stateroom; crew can be as much as 4x that by use of small staterooms. But note all references to crew in small staterooms use both words.
TNE allows MP in small staterooms or double occupancy in standard ones, but only outside the regency, and at reduced cost. It also includes steerage (8 per stateroom) at Cr2500 each.
T20 introduced double occupancy high passage, and different from TNE pricing for MP DO, but requires passengers to be in large staterooms.
You're correct that MgT does stick to single occupancy passages.
I can't get to my GT to check, but GTFT doesn't mention double occupancy for passengers.
* Note that there appear to be 3 categories of craft, not two: Military/Scout, Commercial, and Private. The only CT core rules private ships shown are yachts... but only military vessels are shown with double occupancy. None use small craft staterooms.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I could have sworn there was a recent thread about this. But, of course, search turns up nothing. There was a whole discussion of putting the extra life support in its own pod, or of including it in each pod. I believe Aramis posted his design there (I remember the ability to open the pods to a common space).
