Pattern Emerges

[tbeard1999]

Well, another MGT thread just got locked by the moderator because a fangoose got pissy with various folks in the thread. True to form, the issue raised in the thread never got resolved. The issue, by the way, was why assault rifles do significantly more damage/penetration than rifles and autorifles.

Given that the characteristics of assault rifles are well known in Traveller and the Real World, the designers' lack of knowledge on this point is troubling.

Anyhow, I think I'm detecting a pattern.

1. Reasonable question about rules are answered.

2. Explanations are thrashed out, until it becomes obvious that the rule in question is defective.

3. Fanboy jumps in and starts flaming critics of the game. (EDIT--And critics (me, certainly) fire right back.)

4. In the guise of "keeping the peace", Mongoose moderator shuts down thread, rather than warn the offenders first.

Isn't it convenient that that strategy ends difficult questions so effectively?

Of course, being stubborn, I just re-ask the question in a new thread.

 

[Able Baker]

I concur.

There´s also still no explanation for the recoil issue, too.

 

[sablewyvern]

They do seem pretty remiss when it comes to answering simple questions -- "typo", "good point, fixing it" or "looking into it" wouldn't have taken an effort to post.

However, on the thread locking specifically -- the Traveller forum over there has been getting pretty pissy in general recently. Note that there are three other threadlocks on the front page, all of which included mainly poster to poster discussion, rather than comments or questions intended for the Mongoose crew. Therefore, I dispute your conspiracy theory, even while I empathise with the situation that led you to present it.

 

[sablewyvern]

Well, there you go. The question has now been answered.

 

[Plankowner]

A new thread was opened about the assault rifle damage and Mongoose responded that it was being changed.

So, it will be fixed, all the extra discussion/flamewar was unnecessary.

 

[tbeard1999]

A new thread was opened about the assault rifle damage and Mongoose responded that it was being changed.

So, it will be fixed, all the extra discussion/flamewar was unnecessary.

Well, the extra discussion was caused by Mongoose's unwillingness to reply to a very simple question. The orginal question was posted 2 weeks ago. And the flaming was done largely by one Fangoose(tm)...twice.

In any case, I stand by my observation that Mongoose's willingness to kill a thread (rather than warn the folks first) makes it very easy for fans to kill dissent. All they have to do is get a little pissy and Mongoose conveniently steps in to kill the entire discussion.

Since I lack a mindreading machine, I cannot be certain of the motives involved. But I do think it's reasonable to presume that someone intends the consequences of their actions, if those consequences are easily predictable.

If I were really interested in encouraging open and frank discussion, I'd at least warn folks before killing the thread. But if I wanted to kill criticism (and not be obvious about it), I'd kill inconvenient threads at the first opportunity and cite alleged uncivil conduct (or some other smokescreen).

 

[tbeard1999]

Well, there you go. The question has now been answered.

Yeah. After THREE threads asking the question and after two weeks. Hardly responsive, seems to me.

 

[DaveChase]

Soap Box on

Well, the extra discussion was caused by Mongoose's unwillingness to reply to a very simple question. The orginal question was posted 2 weeks ago. And the flaming was done largely by one Fangoose(tm)...twice.

In any case, I stand by my observation that Mongoose's willingness to kill a thread (rather than warn the folks first) makes it very easy for fans to kill dissent. All they have to do is get a little pissy and Mongoose conveniently steps in to kill the entire discussion.

Since I lack a mindreading machine, I cannot be certain of the motives involved. But I do think it's reasonable to presume that someone intends the consequences of their actions, if those consequences are easily predictable.

If I were really interested in encouraging open and frank discussion, I'd at least warn folks before killing the thread. But if I wanted to kill criticism (and not be obvious about it), I'd kill inconvenient threads at the first opportunity and cite alleged uncivil conduct (or some other smokescreen).

Neither for or against Mongoose in the following opinion.

Some companies do not do as well as others in responding to customers directly. Some players (customers) expect every company to respond like their favorite.

Some companies internal policies do not allow any response to any official/legitmate questions until it is throughly and completely thought out.
And some individuals of companies do not respond well to critical comments by players/customers.

It is a very fine balancing plus juggling plus singing a good song act to pull off in any type of company that deals directly with the public.

If you wish to learn more of the reasons why Mongoose (or any other company) does what it does/did then ask in them in a direct PM/email for the company reasons/policies. Ask them nicely and possibly explain nicely your reasons. Respond to any replies professional or at least politely and explain with valid, solid reasons why you disagree (if you do) or at least thank them nicely for replying.

I worked for WizKids LLC before it was purchased by Topps (trading card company). I speak from personal experience as both a company guy and a 'fanatic' player.
I offer this only as a insight of what possibly might be and how to deal with it.

I believe that you can find many companies that failed to carry through to the needs of the players/customers and started struggling. NOTE: I said needs not wants/desires, because they are not always the same.

Also companies need to develop and instill a certain trust and loyalty both ways between customers and it self. Companies will have ups and downs but how they leave the players/customers will tell if they recover or not.

Soap Box off.

I feel for you and would be willing to look into it more if needed about Mongoose. I believe that you all can do such your self and being the customers that they are wanting to draw will succeed better than I, if it is done professionally.

Dave Chase

 

[hunter]

Well, another MGT thread just got locked by the moderator because a fangoose got pissy with various folks in the thread. True to form, the issue raised in the thread never got resolved. The issue, by the way, was why assault rifles do significantly more damage/penetration than rifles and autorifles.

Check the threads. There is a very common element and it isn't Mongoose

 

[tbeard1999]

I feel for you and would be willing to look into it more if needed about Mongoose. I believe that you all can do such your self and being the customers that they are wanting to draw will succeed better than I, if it is done professionally.

Dave Chase

Hey Dave. I appreciate the offer, and do have a certain academic interest in whether the decisions to kill threads are motivated by a desire to squelch criticism. However, I am not much concerned with motives. First, it seems very unlikely that anyone would admit to wanting to censor a thread. Second, it really doesn't matter what the motive is. I am complaining about the effect, which is independent of motive. And since the effect is easily predictable, there are really only a few (non-mutually exclusive) possibilities: (a) they are trying to squelch negative commentary; (b) they don't care if their acts have that effect; or (c) they are too stupid to see how easy they are making it for those who do want to squelch negative comments.

None of those possibilities encourage me.

 

[tbeard1999]

Check the threads. There is a very common element and it isn't Mongoose

True. However, Mongoose is the party locking threads. Now, I have no problem with a forum owner determining what the standards of conduct will be. It just seems interesting to me that locking controversial threads is the first resort. In my own FFT email group, I've rarely had to intervene. And *never* have I had someone disobey a warning to keep it civil. So, Mongoose's administrators seems overly trigger happy to me.

The fact that this has the effect of closing down threads critical of MGT is, shall we say, an interesting coincidence.

 

[hunter]

True. However, Mongoose is the party locking threads. Now, I have no problem with a forum owner determining what the standards of conduct will be. It just seems interesting to me that locking controversial threads is the first resort. In my own FFT email group, I've rarely had to intervene. And *never* have I had someone disobey a warning to keep it civil. So, Mongoose's administrators seems overly trigger happy to me.

The fact that this has the effect of closing down threads critical of MGT is, shall we say, an interesting coincidence.

Most of the locked threads aren't involving the actual MGT material.

Frankly I'd have locked them as well. There weren't doing anything but having a couple of folks going back and forth over the same thing. That's not a knock on you BTW.

I'm not giving Mongoose a pass here. I think you've brought up some real issues and as you say they do not appear to have been addressed. But I don't think Mongoose is closing the threads to stifle dissent. I think they are closing them to stop bickering in a thread no longer really serving a purpose. If they allowed them to stay open, you continue to get the same back and forth and it would likely degenerate badly, more so than it already had. Unfortunately it only takes one poster to have this effect.

 

[atpollard]

I sort of like locked threads.
When you log on after a few days and there are threads which suddenly have MANY new posts, it helps identify the bickering so I can more easily avoid it.

Perhaps some sort of word limit per day to prevent endless repetition of "But you said..." and "No, what I said was ..." - and this applies to a lot more places than the Mongoose Traveller discussions. Few rules errors really need more than one page of ideas. Most of the posts after that tend to be either an alternate system (which is Mongoose's job) or a private debate/argument.

Just my personal observations.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I haven't been on many boards, but if all this chaos on the Mongoose board is typical, I've got to say that CotI is very well behaved.

 

[tbeard1999]

I sort of like locked threads.
When you log on after a few days and there are threads which suddenly have MANY new posts, it helps identify the bickering so I can more easily avoid it.

Perhaps some sort of word limit per day to prevent endless repetition of "But you said..." and "No, what I said was ..." - and this applies to a lot more places than the Mongoose Traveller discussions. Few rules errors really need more than one page of ideas. Most of the posts after that tend to be either an alternate system (which is Mongoose's job) or a private debate/argument.

Just my personal observations.

I want to be sure I'm clear on this. I have no problem with obnoxious threads being locked. However, I think that the administrator should generally issue a warning first. Unless the cussin' and spewin' is out of control -- and that has not been the case in these threads. I've seen worse flamewars on my Sunday School prayer list...

Mongoose seems overly trigger-happy to me and I think that this has the consequence of enabling fans to quash dissent. And this consequence is very predictable, regardless of whether this it's intended.

And shouldn't we presume that someone intends the likely consequences of his actions?

 

[Sturn]

I was the one who asked for moderator help with the thread that had turned into bickering instead of discussion.In fact I asked once that the bickering stop, but a few egos couldn't help but continue. Please note that I had nothing to do with the bickering, only the debate at that thread.

There had been a good discussion about assault rifle damage, that apparently Mongoose did look into to (they announced they changed it). It was the discussion that turned into a mud slinging between a few egos that caused the thread to be locked, and the discussion was moved elsewhere (then quickly stopped because Mongoose announced that assault damage was being adjusted).

It had nothing to do with Mongoose squelching debate. This is not from a fanboy, look at most of my posts over there. It had everything to do with immaturity.

Tbeard, your posts didn't help the debate. You are complaining that they are squelching debate, when you yourself contributed to the thread being locked by adding to the bickering instead of the actual debate.

Yes Tbeard, I do see a pattern emerging.....

 

[Sturn]

I haven't been on many boards, but if all this chaos on the Mongoose board is typical, I've got to say that CotI is very well behaved.

From a completely neutral person who recently joined the Mogoose forums, it isn't chaos. Please see for yourself.

 

[Able Baker]

Please ignore, the comment that stood here first wasn´t helping.

 

[tbeard1999]

I was the one who asked for moderator help with the thread that had turned into bickering instead of discussion.

It's hard to see how killing the thread constituted "help" in any meaningful definition of the term. Assuming that one wanted the discussion to continue on the merits, wouldn't it have been far better to simply warn the participants to be more civil first? I mean, it was all pretty tame stuff up to that point.

It had nothing to do with Mongoose squelching debate. This is not from a fanboy, look at most of my posts over there. It had everything to do with immaturity.

It's indisputable that the thread was peremptorially ended and that this squelched further discussion in that thread. These are the facts, like 'em or not.

It is also indisputable that quickly killing contentious discussions can be exploited by unscrupulous folks who want to kill dissent. These are also the facts, like 'em or not.

As I keep saying, it really isn't necessary to determine whether this was the intended outcome. Since such an outcome is easily predictable, I think it's fair to presume that one intends the likely consequences of one's act. In any case, I am complaining about the consequences, not Mongoose's intention. Of course, I've also noticed that the consequences are rather convenient...

In any case, I posted the question a THIRD time and finally got a (rather vague) response.

Tbeard, your posts didn't help the debate.

An ironic charge, since I started the thread (three different times). My posts included a review of gun calibers from the start of the 20th century to today and numerous comparisons between assault rifle cartridges and rifle cartidges. I also addressed the alternative theories put forth by others. I think I contributed as much substantive material as anyone to the discussion. And a damnsight more than some.

Regarding MGT and related issues, I'm willing to let my arguments speak for themselves. I have, I think, supported my factual assertions with evidence. If you have a specific disagreement with a factual assertion of mine, please feel free to let me know and we can discuss it.

But words cannot adequately express how little interest I have in defending myself against vague, unsubstantiated charges here.

 

[tbeard1999]

I haven't been on many boards, but if all this chaos on the Mongoose board is typical, I've got to say that CotI is very well behaved.

Agreed. I like the fact that Hunter is usually willing to warn folks before killing a thread. Sometimes, it really isn't clear when you cross the line. It's how I run my own FFT email group as well.