Paya demographics

[rancke]

How are we crediting advanced robotic systems to a TL9 society? Granted, that's the wording of the Traveller Adventure entry on Paya, but I'd recommend we take that with a grain of salt - or else submit Paya for errata treatment. The fact that they rely heavily on robotics is noteworthy among Imperial worlds, but their robotics would be limited to "high data" basic learning systems requiring some human oversight; they are three tech levels away from autonomous systems.

I think it's a writer's error. He meant advanced compared to what he and the reader knew about (TL 9 vs. TL 7). As library data writing it should really have been primitive robotic systems (compared to Imperial average TL 12 or even Imperial maximum TL 15).

TA tells us Paya was settled about 800 years ago, that it has a gas giant and a naval base, that it is, "a small, nearly unpopulated world which is the subsector headquarters for Oberlindes Lines." Further information reveals that the population of Paya stood as high as 12 million before a natural disaster and subsequent evacuation left the few hundred of this Society of Evolutes as the sole heirs to the planet, and that these few hundred are "fabulously wealthy" owing to the leasing arrangement Oberlindes has for that A-starport and the Imperials have for that naval base. The book example has the locals spending outlandishly to build infrastructure for their future population: one antagonist is described as building a "personal city" named after himself.

One wonders just how much Oberlindes and the Navy pay in rent. Perhaps there are other sources of income, such as diamond mines kept open by robots.

Paya's infrastructure is interesting because it is distorted by two factors: The fact that it was already built by 12 million people and the current population fell heir to it, and the fact that the Chosen don't want to allow immigration. This means that robots may be economically inferior to living beings and still be employed by the Chosen because their chief concern isn't economic and they can afford a little inefficiency in favor of political goals.

Which suggests a couple of points:
1) The Payan population has wealth a couple or three orders of magnitude above the norm for a population their size. Their TL9 robotic systems would greatly increase their production base, but I don't think even that would supply the resource needs for the kind of construction being hinted at, and they've got lots of moola available to apply toward filling in any gaps. Ergo, the level of import is likely to be an order of magniture or two higher than the norm for a population of this size.

Whatever sum of money they receive in rent from the offworlders must be spent on imports (or services from the offworlders). Or saved for a rainy day, but eventually it'd be spent on imports.

2) Neither the naval base nor the starport are under the jurisdiction of the Paya government. Ergo, the populations of those facilities, assuming they reside within the Imperial jurisdiction (and the Society of Evolutes is unlikely to agree to anything else), are not likely to be counted in the Paya census.

The UWP population score isn't about censuses and citizenships. So the standing population of those facilities ought to be included in the population score. It's perfectly obvious from the text, however, that they aren't.

Given the needs of a naval base, the system's Imperial population could well be one or two orders of magnitude above the local jurisdiction's planetary population.

I'd say that was a given.

Under ordinary circumstances, this would drive growth of the local planetary population as people immigrated to take jobs indirectly serving the base. However, the local population's resistance to immigration except in a tightly controlled form, combined with the limited production capacity of the small local population - even after accounting for use of robotics to extend productivity, and especially given that much of that productivity is being focused on local infrastructure development - could lead to the base needing to import more than would otherwise be normal for it.

Agreed.

So what is the population of Paya in 1105? According to the official lists the population multiplier is 6, which means that in the 30 years from the catastrophe, they've increased by somewhere between 100 and 190. (They don't seem to be in a lot of hurry). A random die roll suggests a population of 677. (BtC claims 620 in 1120, but for reasons given below, I don't think that can be right).

Side note: This seems a remarkably low population expansion for a society that has 'made "be fruitful and multiply" a key part of their lives' and has hired 'thousands of host mothers from offworld'. One such host mother has contracted to bear five children in the next five years. [p. 86] Unless this practice has only just been instituted, there should already be thousands of children added to the number of adult citizens. I suppose one has to posit that children don't count until they're, say, 18.

What about other inhabitants?

a) There's the 'thousands of host mothers'. The minimum that implies would be 2000, give or take. It could easily mean several thousands more. (Which, incidentally, means that in 1106 the number of Payan citizens should be in the thousands and by 1111 (the date of the UWPs in SMC) above ten thousand. In 1120 there should be several tens of thousands. :devil

b) (Surmise only): Technicians hired on five-year contracts to supervise the robotic equipment and other providers of various services.

c) (Surmise only): Mercenaries to keep the host mothers and technicians and servants in line. Problem with that is making sure the mercenaries don't get any ideas.

d) Starport residents. The starport is almost certainly located in the shell of the one they had 30 years ago for a population of 12 million. Parts will have been closed down to reduce the maintenance requirements, but the Imperium will not have given any of the territory back. Most offworlders (sich as the Imperiallines office) will fit inside the extrality fence. The old startown outside the fence is a ghost town. (The question here is why they're keeping up the services of a Class A starport. The astrography around Paya is a bit awkward and it looks to me like most of traffic between the Regina subsector and the Towers Cluster would bypass Paya.) Call it a couple of hundred starport employees and employees of smaller companies?

Partial list of starport residents:

* Starport Authority
* Imperial consulate
* Paya's high noble (probably owns an estate somewhere nice outside the starport -- much to the annoyance of the Chosen -- but his office could be inside the starport)
* Imperiallines
* Ministry of Justice agents (3?)
* Chandler
* Vendors (?)
* TAS office
* Representative of Paya's Government-in-Exile​

Who else?

e) Oberlindes personnel and shipyard workers. The shipyard is the one that was there 30 years ago, a small one by some standards, but capable of handling ships in the low size rtange that Oberlindes runs (By TCS rules 12 million people means a shipyard capacity of 12000 dT). The local manufacturers of ship components would be defunct, so I don't know how much sense it makes to build starships there, but maintenance and repairs seems reasonable. Call it a couple of hundred Oberlindes employees?

f) Imperial navy base personnel. Looking at Paya's astrographical location, the base is probably intended as a repair base more than as a defensive measure. I'd suggest that the base would be mostly under caretaker rule, ready to be activated in case of war. Call it a thousand?


Hans

 

[atpollard]

The UWP population score isn't about censuses and citizenships. So the standing population of those facilities ought to be included in the population score. It's perfectly obvious from the text, however, that they aren't.

Given the situation on Paya and the strong feelings of the population, I wonder if the 'official' population figure is one of political expedience due to the highly emotional and sensitive nature of foreign workers and 'the Chosen' ... so as a favor to the Imperial Navy, the Scout Service submitted a formal request for the government of Paya to provide the 'official population' figure for the planet ... that's the official government census and the IISS is sticking with it.

... Or if they are anything like our society, that is an old figure but the last 'official census'. The current census figures are tied up in a multi-party legal challenge that is waiting for appeal to the Sector Courts and the Emperor himself before it can be officially published by the IISS. o:

 

[rancke]

Given the situation on Paya and the strong feelings of the population, I wonder if the 'official' population figure is one of political expedience due to the highly emotional and sensitive nature of foreign workers and 'the Chosen' ... so as a favor to the Imperial Navy, the Scout Service submitted a formal request for the government of Paya to provide the 'official population' figure for the planet ... that's the official government census and the IISS is sticking with it.

It's as good an explanation as any. Mind you, if this is the case, a proper writeup of Paya would need a remark somewhat like "For purposes of determining freight and passengers for visiting tramp ships, Paya counts as having a population score of 5".

The FT rules for determining freight and passenger volumes would also need to be twisted like pretzels.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

The FT rules for determining freight and passenger volumes would also need to be twisted like pretzels.

I think that this is going to be the case no matter what ... a planet of several hundred religious fanatic billionaires is seeking to maintain a naval base and a starport with imported labor while renting women to mass produce babies to populate the utopian world that they are building ... the standard passenger and trade rules will never be able to cover that without some serious bending.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Doesn't anyone wonder why Oberlindes and the Imperial Navy chose this spot? There has to be more to the story than what was written. It might have been a plot seed for further adventures.

Oberlindes selects the planet as an expansion hub into the Aramis Subsector and puts a class A starport there. The Military follow suit.

This in itself would seem to indicate there is something of value on the world.

What is I have no clue.

The only thing we have in the written account is Advanced robotic.

This seems to suggest an ancient site?

 

[rancke]

Doesn't anyone wonder why Oberlindes and the Imperial Navy chose this spot? There has to be more to the story than what was written. It might have been a plot seed for further adventures.

Oberlindes selects the planet as an expansion hub into the Aramis Subsector and puts a class A starport there. The Military follow suit.

This in itself would seem to indicate there is something of value on the world.

What is I have no clue.

My best idea is that Paya used to have a modest shipyard back before 1075. That was abandoned after the disaster, of course. In 1094 (a bit earlier, actually), Oberlindes realized that the shipyard itself could be restored relatively cheaply. Parts would have to be imported, but annual maintenance could be performed there. (Perhaps Tukera and Akerut had a stranglehold on shipyard services in the rest of Aramis subsector that froze out Oberlindes).

In 1102 the Imperial Navy decides to turn Paya's shipyard into an emergency repair&refit base. They probably pay Oberlindes to expand their capacity.

What I can't come up with is any reason for Oberlindes or the Navy to actively build ships at Paya.

Also, I can't see the rent from Oberlindes and the Navy making all the Payans into billionaires.

Ah, well...


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Oberlines runs a class B starport. Someone ordered a starship when the population was 12 million. It was half finished when the disaster reduced the population to 500. Two people are still working on building that ship and expect to be finished in 3500 years. As long as a starship remains under construction, it is a class A starport (by definition). :rofl:

I am, of course, just kidding.

 

[atpollard]

Also, I can't see the rent from Oberlindes and the Navy making all the Payans into billionaires.

Just thinking out loud here, but what is the GWP for a world of 12 million at TL 9?
... And if the Government Fees (rent) for the Class A Starport and Imperial Navy Base came to 1% of GWP of the 12 million people TL 9 world ...
... and if that 1% GWP rent were divided among 250 families ...
... How much would each family get?

 

[rancke]

Just thinking out loud here, but what is the GWP for a world of 12 million at TL 9?

120 billion credits, I think.

... And if the Government Fees (rent) for the Class A Starport and Imperial Navy Base came to 1% of GWP of the 12 million people TL 9 world ...

That assumption leaves me behind. For one thing, the starport is Imperial territory and the government of Paya would not receive a centicred in rent for that. They're getting rent for the shipyard and for the land the navy base is built on.

... and if that 1% GWP rent were divided among 250 families ...
... How much would each family get?

'Bout five million credits/year.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

The only thing we have in the written account is Advanced robotic.

The world once had a population of 12 million (POP 7). If the capacity of the orbital shipyard was established at the peak population, and 0.5% of the total population of 12 million is needed to operate it, then 60,000 TL 9 workers are needed to operate the starport/shipyard at full capacity.

From my earlier post on robotics, if we assume that 90% of those positions (60,000 x 0.9 = 54,000) can be replaced by 13,500 TL 9 robotic workers (1 robot = 4 people ... no need to sleep) that will need to be supervised by 6000 humans.

Then a shipyard with 6000 imported workers (all high paying supervisor positions) can maintain the production output of a class A starport/shipyard on a POP 7 World with a reasonable imported workforce.

... And if 5400 (90%) of those 6000 imported supervisors are replaced by 1350 TL 12 robotic supervisors, then only 600 executives and administrators from Oberlindes are needed to oversee the Starport/Shipyard and the contracts for the Navy Base services. Oberlindes can maintain the production output of a class A starport/shipyard on a POP 7 World with a very modest imported workforce and a reputation for one of the most advanced robotic facilities in the Imperium.

There are more advanced robots out there, but 600 people maintaining a POP 7 starship production facility is far more robotic automation than is typical for the Imperium.

Why do it at all is still a mystery to me.
I don't follow the OTU close enough to care.

 

[atpollard]

That assumption leaves me behind. For one thing, the starport is Imperial territory and the government of Paya would not receive a centicred in rent for that. They're getting rent for the shipyard and for the land the navy base is built on.

I have no idea how to calculate the the economic contribution of a shipyard except to link it to the Class A starport and the Pop 7 world economy to estimate what percentage of the action would be a fair kickback for a planetary government.

I pulled 1% of GWP out of thin air as the reasonable tax/revenue/rent that the planetary government might expect.

So what I was wondering was, what if the starport/shipyard are all operating as if the world were still POP 7, and the tax/revenue/rent were now given to a government of 250 families?

So thanks for the answer ... about 5 million credits per year.
Does that qualify as 'very wealthy' like the original description?

 

[Carlobrand]

Paya is a wonderful example of someone letting their imagination take an absurd set of system generation results and making a unique sci fi setting out of it.

...The UWP population score isn't about censuses and citizenships. So the standing population of those facilities ought to be included in the population score. It's perfectly obvious from the text, however, that they aren't.

In the great majority of cases, whether the population does or does not include the starport or naval base is no more significant than whether a city's population includes the folk residing at the various foreign embassies: the typical city hosting embassies is big enough that the question is largely moot. It's only in the extreme cases that this issue comes up, and the example of Paya gives us precedent to resolve similar contradictions in a couple of other bizarre systems.

Your mention of the host mothers sheds light on yet another class of occupant who may not be counted among the world's population: guest workers. The description states clearly that Paya does not permit immigration except in rare cases, and yet here are women in numbers exceeding the official population of the world. Clearly they are not being counted. Some few might meet the requirements for that "rare" exception and be counted officially, but clearly they aren't being counted now, and they are expected to go home once their contracts expire.

By extension, as you point out, there may be other "temps" who are likewise not counted, including the technicians needed to oversee operation of TL9 robotic systems. If that is the case, the planetary population is no longer a restraint on the scale of the industrial base - although the planet is coded non-industrial, so that can only go so far (because if there are too many guest workers/mercs/what-have-you, it would be rather easy for the guest workers to decide en masse to overthrow the Payans and take over. And, as you point out, hiring private security to control the guest workers may only make the Payans vulnerable to their hired guards.)

Another issue is more fundamental. The UWP gives us a population, a government code derived from the population, and a law code derived from the government code. It gets a little weird in the case of the low pop worlds if we're claiming the government and law codes evolve from populations a significant fraction of which aren't even governed by those governments and laws. However, trying to figure out how many people live at the starport and subtracting them out of the UWP before calculating the government type would clearly be overcomplicating things. Frankly, it solves a number of problems if we assume the base populations and starport populations are not counted among the world's native population.

...
So what is the population of Paya in 1105? According to the official lists the population multiplier is 6, which means that in the 30 years from the catastrophe, they've increased by somewhere between 100 and 190. (They don't seem to be in a lot of hurry). A random die roll suggests a population of 677. (BtC claims 620 in 1120, but for reasons given below, I don't think that can be right).

Side note: This seems a remarkably low population expansion for a society that has 'made "be fruitful and multiply" a key part of their lives' and has hired 'thousands of host mothers from offworld'. One such host mother has contracted to bear five children in the next five years. [p. 86] Unless this practice has only just been instituted, there should already be thousands of children added to the number of adult citizens. I suppose one has to posit that children don't count until they're, say, 18.

The native Payans are eugenicists, "dedicated to the principle of improving humaniti through the scientific principles of selective eugenics programs ..." It is entirely likely that they are testing pregnancies for unacceptable genes and that a large fraction of the pregnancies are being terminated for harboring undesirable recessive genes. They're culling their fruit, aiming for quality over quantity.

...d) Starport residents. The starport is almost certainly located in the shell of the one they had 30 years ago for a population of 12 million. ..."

From Traveller Adventure: "The disaster was in the form of an asteroid strike which hit the southern continent, where the majority of the population
was located. ... Oberlindes offered to lease ground for a starport, and built a new facility to replace the one lost in the asteroid strike. ... Calula is a Payan, head of his family and chief of the Cratersea district on Paya (which takes its name from the water-filled impact crater which marks the site of the former colony.)"

Oberlindes' need to lease new ground suggests that the former ground is not in any condition to accept new facilities; otherwise - as you point out - they could build within the borders of the former port under Imperial authorization. Inasmuch as starports are often located reasonably close to a planet's center of population, it's a good bet that the former starport is either underwater with the rest of the colony - and basically pulverized - or, by its description as being "lost in the asteroid strike", devastated by proximity to the meteor impact.

...Partial list of starport residents:
...e) Oberlindes personnel and shipyard workers. The shipyard is the one that was there 30 years ago, a small one by some standards, but capable of handling ships in the low size rtange that Oberlindes runs (By TCS rules 12 million people means a shipyard capacity of 12000 dT). The local manufacturers of ship components would be defunct, so I don't know how much sense it makes to build starships there, but maintenance and repairs seems reasonable. Call it a couple of hundred Oberlindes employees?

Traveller Adventure, page 136, shows Oberlindes with a trade route in which Paya connects Oberlindes' entire Aramis operation with operations in the Regina subsector. A main route runs from Paya to Violante (C starport), then Pavane (C starport), Aramanx (B starport), Junidy (B starport), Jesedipere (C starport), and ends at Lablon (B starport), with feeder routes along the way to other systems. In the Regina subsector, the line appears to run to Inthe (B starport). Paya's starport is therefore key to maintaining Oberlindes jump drives in the Aramis subsector. TA does not define a "main route" in terms of volume or number of ships, but it is clear that the Paya starport stays fairly active.

...f) Imperial navy base personnel. Looking at Paya's astrographical location, the base is probably intended as a repair base more than as a defensive measure. I'd suggest that the base would be mostly under caretaker rule, ready to be activated in case of war. Call it a thousand?

The stated reason for an Imperial base is to provide "a base in the Scatters," (Focaline, Violante, Heguz, Corfu, and the isolated worlds between the Aramis cluster and the Tower cluster. The coreward worlds including the Tower cluster are potentially threatened by the Vargr. Aramis subsector has two naval bases: Aramis and Paya. Paya's position also allows it to support the naval base at Pixie in defending the coreward reaches of Regina subsector from Vargr incursion. Paya in turn is supported from Inthe, two parsecs to rimward. Paya is present on the Fifth Frontier War map; it does not host a colonial fleet but may host an Imperial squadron at the player's discretion, though this is an odd place to put a squadron for that game.

As near as I can tell, there are no significant naval assets within the pocket formed by Pixie, Paya and Aramis. Ergo, Paya is likely to host naval forces intended to discourage Vargr activity in that pocket - most likely destroyer squadrons tasked to chase down raiders too big for the patrol ships to deal with. Beyond that, while it might be constructed to support cruisers and dreadnoughts, those resources are likely to be, as you say, in inactive status during peacetime.

 

[rancke]

Paya is a wonderful example of someone letting their imagination take an absurd set of system generation results and making a unique sci fi setting out of it.

I have to disagree. It would have been a wonderful example if the authors had finished the process by revising the UWP to fit the setting they had been inspired by that absurd set of system generation results to come up with. As it is, alas, the set of system generation results remain absurd.

It's only in the extreme cases that this issue comes up, and the example of Paya gives us precedent to resolve similar contradictions in a couple of other bizarre systems.

Except that we have other examples, as well as game rules, that establishes contradictory precedences. Basically, this precedence is that "the UWPs can be flat out wrong to a quite absurd degree". This is not a precedence that is useful to the 'end user', however useful it is to the writer. Especially since "if you can't think of a way to explain the UWP then make something up that works for you and change the UWPs to fit" would be just as useful to the writer AND also useful to the user.

However, that's tangential to the discussion here. Whether or not the original authors did right or wrong, it's clear that they omitted most of the population. In this thread I'm trying to explore who those inhabitants that they didn't include are and how many of them there are.

Your mention of the host mothers sheds light on yet another class of occupant who may not be counted among the world's population: guest workers.

It also sheds light on another class of inhabitant that the description of Paya does not count: children of the permanent population[*]. It is, I suppose, conceivable that the whole institution of host mothers has only just been put into practice in 1105, but I just don't see that as plausible. A scheme like that wouldn't start by importing 2000 host mothers. You'd begin by importing a couple of dozen to test the concept, then a couple of hundred five years later, then perhaps a couple of thousands five years later, although I'd find it more likely that after the first test they'd import several hundred per year with overlapping tenures.

Since it is clear from the 1111 and 1120 population figures that the children are not being counted even if they only started being born in 1106, I propose exploring the possibility that the host mother scheme began shortly after 1094, when Oberlindes' infusion of capital set the Chosen on the road to affluence.

[*] Do you also feel that this is a reasonable precedence? (Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation to make this point even if I have just declared it a side issue. :devil​

The UWP gives us a population, a government code derived from the population, and a law code derived from the government code. It gets a little weird in the case of the low pop worlds if we're claiming the government and law codes evolve from populations a significant fraction of which aren't even governed by those governments and laws. [...] Frankly, it solves a number of problems if we assume the base populations and starport populations are not counted among the world's native population.

True, but it introduces other problems. Most notably for the trade rules.

The native Payans are eugenicists, "dedicated to the principle of improving humaniti through the scientific principles of selective eugenics programs ..." It is entirely likely that they are testing pregnancies for unacceptable genes and that a large fraction of the pregnancies are being terminated for harboring undesirable recessive genes. They're culling their fruit, aiming for quality over quantity.

Not to the extent of only having had, at most, 199 children since 1075. Besides, such testing would take place with the embryos and the selection would take place before implantation in the host mother. Celia's contract calls for bearing five children, not for starting to bear five children.

And they are aiming for quantity as well as quality.

There's also the psychological factor that they consider themselves to be superior specimens. They're not going to reject children whose genetic codes are close to their own even if by objective standards those genes are sort of blah.

From Traveller Adventure: "The disaster was in the form of an asteroid strike which hit the southern continent, where the majority of the population was located. ... Oberlindes offered to lease ground for a starport, and built a new facility to replace the one lost in the asteroid strike."

Right you are. I'd overlooked that.

Oberlindes' need to lease new ground suggests that the former ground is not in any condition to accept new facilities; otherwise - as you point out - they could build within the borders of the former port under Imperial authorization. Inasmuch as starports are often located reasonably close to a planet's center of population, it's a good bet that the former starport is either underwater with the rest of the colony - and basically pulverized - or, by its description as being "lost in the asteroid strike", devastated by proximity to the meteor impact.

The Imperium would have insisted on a new Imperial starport, though, wouldn't it? So is there a bare spot of bedrock and a beacon with an extrality fence around it somewhere on Paya? Because I don't see why Oberlindes would need to pay rent to Paya for permission to build starport buildings in the Imperial starport area. I would have thought the Imperium would have been only too pleased to allow them to build one.

And please don't say that the Chosen could have refused to renegotiate the membership treaty. All the Imperium would have needed to do if they had was to transport a couple of thousand Payan expatriates back to Paya after a few years.

(Indeed, the whole question of why the evacuated Payans haven't been allowed back seems to suggest that the Imperium has some sort of sweetheart deal with the Chosen).

Traveller Adventure, page 136, shows Oberlindes with a trade route in which Paya connects Oberlindes' entire Aramis operation with operations in the Regina subsector.

Yes, I know. But Oberlindes is not a big company at this point (although it is due for a doubling in number of ships if not in capacity). Either it is a relatively big fish in a very small pond (i.e. interstellar traffic is about the size FT implies) or it's a picayune fish in a big pond (i.e. interstellar traffic is a lot bigger than FT implies). Whatever the case, other companies could easily bypass Paya on the way between Regina and the Towers Cluster. Or perhapd not. As I said, the astrography is awkward, calling for a mix of jump-2 and jump-3. (What would really improve the flow of traffic would be a couple of deep space stations in selected empty hexes ).

TA does not define a "main route" in terms of volume or number of ships, but it is clear that the Paya starport stays fairly active.

Not if it only services the percentage of Oberlindes' 100 ships that operate in Aramis in 1105. (Which I'm assuming is only a handful, most of the ships being employed in Regina subsector).

The stated reason for an Imperial base is to provide "a base in the Scatters," (Focaline, Violante, Heguz, Corfu, and the isolated worlds between the Aramis cluster and the Tower cluster. The coreward worlds including the Tower cluster are potentially threatened by the Vargr.

So it is claimed. But why put the most forward Imperial Navy bases on Paya and Aramis instead of on Towers and Junidy? The only reason I can think of is "because the dice didn't put navy bases on Towers and Junidy". How much use are ships stationed at Paya going to be in defending the worlds of the Towers Cluster against Vargr raiders?

Aramis subsector has two naval bases: Aramis and Paya.

And L'ouel d'Dieu and Natoko.

Paya's position also allows it to support the naval base at Pixie in defending the coreward reaches of Regina subsector from Vargr incursion.

Paya is nine parsecs from Pixie. It has little or no ability to support anything at Pixie.

Paya's astrographic position puts it firmly behind the first line of defense against Vargr invaders. Or rather, firmly behind where the first line of defense ought to be. A base in the Kinorb Cluster would be a different matter. Too bad the dice didn't provide one.

As near as I can tell, there are no significant naval assets within the pocket formed by Pixie, Paya and Aramis. Ergo, Paya is likely to host naval forces intended to discourage Vargr activity in that pocket - most likely destroyer squadrons tasked to chase down raiders too big for the patrol ships to deal with.

Any ships stationed at Paya would be about as useful for discouraging Vargr activity at the border as an udder on a bull. The best explanation for the absence of naval bases corewards of Paya and Aramis that I can come up with is that the Imperial Navy assets in the Towers Cluster are based on Junidy. Probably just some destroyers and escorts.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I have to disagree. It would have been a wonderful example if the authors had finished the process by revising the UWP to fit the setting they had been inspired by that absurd set of system generation results to come up with. ...

Okay, almost wonderful. Except - revising the UWP is an errata thing. Barring a declaration of errata, publishing an adventure supplement with UWP data that contradicted data in other game supplements still on the store shelves would have been a rather contraversial move in that period.

Except that we have other examples, as well as game rules, that establishes contradictory precedences. ...".

I am not as well-versed in canon as you, and my stock of Traveller materials has some unfortunate gaps. Might I request some of those examples?

...It also sheds light on another class of inhabitant that the description of Paya does not count: children of the permanent population[*]. It is, I suppose, conceivable that the whole institution of host mothers has only just been put into practice in 1105, but I just don't see that as plausible. A scheme like that wouldn't start by importing 2000 host mothers. You'd begin by importing a couple of dozen to test the concept, then a couple of hundred five years later, then perhaps a couple of thousands five years later, although I'd find it more likely that after the first test they'd import several hundred per year with overlapping tenures.

Since it is clear from the 1111 and 1120 population figures that the children are not being counted even if they only started being born in 1106, I propose exploring the possibility that the host mother scheme began shortly after 1094, when Oberlindes' infusion of capital set the Chosen on the road to affluence.

[*] Do you also feel that this is a reasonable precedence? (Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation to make this point even if I have just declared it a side issue. :devil​

Your conjecture of a slow build up from 1094 is a good one.

I'm not sure I agree the children aren't being counted. The data we have is that as of 1105 they're doing this host mother thing, that the host mothers are also expected to behave as concubines, that at least one such host didn't catch that particular section of the contract and wanted out badly, and that subsequent population statistics don't seem to be showing the growth we'd expect under the described circumstances.

I still think the Payan "be fruitful and multiply" meme collided head-on with their eugenics meme: if they're being so rigorous with immigration, they're likely to be as rigorous with generating offspring. Semi-religious nutcases like these may not have considered that their own genes weren't much "cleaner" than the general population; they may have set their standards impractically high without realizing the difficulty they'd have meeting their own standards. Even allowing for testing prior to implantation, (I should have thought of that) if a large fraction of the results are unsatisfactory to the Payans, you'll have a lot of host mothers twiddling their thumbs, playing concubine and wondering when the "impregnation" bit is actually going to get started or whether that was just some ruse to get them to come to the planet. It's possible the host mother program was scaled back to meet the number of embryos meeting Payan standards that these folk could actually produce.

True, but it introduces other problems. Most notably for the trade rules.

Oh, yeah. It does do violence to the trade rules. That's a consideration.

There's also the psychological factor that they consider themselves to be superior specimens. They're not going to reject children whose genetic codes are close to their own even if by objective standards those genes are sort of blah.

Again, respectful disagreement. They're rich, they can probably afford the anagathics, they've got plenty of time and no incentive to step down from their high and mighty ideals, not after having the chance of a lifetime handed to them by having a meteor come down and leave them with a perfectly empty world in which to bring their ideals to reality. Gene associated with high blood pressure? Not this one. Gene associated with near-sightedness or obesity? Not this one.

Large fractions of the population carry genes and gene combinations that do them absolutely no harm and likewise do their children no harm - unless their spouse carries a complementary combination that combines with that set to give the hapless kiddy some unwanted burden. Very few "perfect" people out there. Weeding all of that out to ensure the next generation is a "perfect" example of eugenic breeding is likely to be a daunting task.

The Imperium would have insisted on a new Imperial starport, though, wouldn't it? ... I don't see why Oberlindes would need to pay rent to Paya for permission to build starport buildings in the Imperial starport area ...

The Imperium would have insisted on a new Imperial starport. It would have been a Class E. Oberlindes would properly have negotiated with the Imperium to build within the newly established extrality zone. Good point. That bit is - puzzling. Worst case is the Payans refuse to do business with the new occupants of the extrality zone, which frankly is not going to be the slightest hindrance to Oberlindes plans - they'd just set up off-planet manufacturing on some vacuum world in the system to keep their port supplied. Canon says Oberlindes leased from the Payans, but I'll be danged if I know why they'd bother.

And please don't say that the Chosen could have refused to renegotiate the membership treaty.

The Chosen could have refused to renegotiate the membership treaty. Nyah nyah.

(And then find themselves red-zoned and unable to import so much as a hammer. Oh, the Chosen gave the Imperials what they wanted and got rich for it - but there was never really a choice.)

(Indeed, the whole question of why the evacuated Payans haven't been allowed back seems to suggest that the Imperium has some sort of sweetheart deal with the Chosen).

Agreed.

Yes, I know. But Oberlindes is not a big company at this point (although it is due for a doubling in number of ships if not in capacity). Either it is a relatively big fish in a very small pond (i.e. interstellar traffic is about the size FT implies) or it's a picayune fish in a big pond (i.e. interstellar traffic is a lot bigger than FT implies). Whatever the case, other companies could easily bypass Paya on the way between Regina and the Towers Cluster. Or perhapd not. As I said, the astrography is awkward, calling for a mix of jump-2 and jump-3. (What would really improve the flow of traffic would be a couple of deep space stations in selected empty hexes ).

Ayup. Odd business decision, that. Hard to imagine without postulating some unstated motivators going on.

Not if it only services the percentage of Oberlindes' 100 ships that operate in Aramis in 1105. (Which I'm assuming is only a handful, most of the ships being employed in Regina subsector).

Annual maintenance for the one or two dozen ships serving six main routes and eight feeders? Plus the trade passing through? It ain't O'Hare International, but it's a much more lively port than this little world deserves.

So it is claimed. But why put the most forward Imperial Navy bases on Paya and Aramis instead of on Towers and Junidy? The only reason I can think of is "because the dice didn't put navy bases on Towers and Junidy". How much use are ships stationed at Paya going to be in defending the worlds of the Towers Cluster against Vargr raiders?

Politics? I don't know. It is what it is; we can remake the map as we see fit or try to find reasons for the odd bits. Destroyers can serve forward without having a naval base a parsec or two away. They can rotate forward and retire back periodically for repair and maintenance, the base can serve as a supply and personnel coordination point, and so forth ... but Junidy still looks like a perfect spot for another base. There's a base at Riacon in Pretoria subsector, but that's consigning the defense of the Towers to the Deneb Sector.

Paya is nine parsecs from Pixie. It has little or no ability to support anything at Pixie.

Again, unless we redraw the map, Paya and Inthe are the bases positioned to support Pixie. Given the Zhodani threat, Efate, Regina, Jewell and Mongo are likely to be more concerned with their own problems. It's not ideal, but at jump-3 to jump-4, Paya's certainly capable of reinforcing Pixie.

Paya's astrographic position puts it firmly behind the first line of defense against Vargr invaders. Or rather, firmly behind where the first line of defense ought to be. A base in the Kinorb Cluster would be a different matter. Too bad the dice didn't provide one.

There was that bit about the Imperials deciding to adopt a rearward strategy after getting their "crust" beat up in one of the wars. Fundamentally you're right but, unless there's a strong community urge to write more errata for the map, adding bases and altering UWP codes is an IMTU project. If we wish to play in the same canon milieu as everyone else, we're rather obliged to play the hand we're dealt.

 

[rancke]

Except that we have other examples, as well as game rules, that establishes contradictory precedences. ...".

I am not as well-versed in canon as you, and my stock of Traveller materials has some unfortunate gaps. Might I request some of those examples?

Replied to in spin-off thread.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Replied to in spin-off thread.


Hans

Uh Oh... Risking the wrath of god here are we Hans?

 

[aramis]

Uh Oh... Risking the wrath of god here are we Hans?

Worded as he did, no.

Complaining that the thread is drifting off his preferrred (but still off-topic) subject is the no-go zone.

 

[Vladika]

Worded as he did, no.

Complaining that the thread is drifting off his preferrred (but still off-topic) subject is the no-go zone.

aramis (I use lower case because that is your style), seriously, no offense was meant here. Just an attempt at a bit of humor.

Also, thanks for the help with my computer glitch.

 

[rancke]

Worded as he did, no.

Complaining that the thread is drifting off his preferrred (but still off-topic) subject is the no-go zone.

Except I didn't do that the first time either. All I did different the first time was to explain my motive for replying in a spin-off thread.


Hans

 

[rancke]

So what I was wondering was, what if the starport/shipyard are all operating as if the world were still POP 7, and the tax/revenue/rent were now given to a government of 250 families?

So thanks for the answer ... about 5 million credits per year.
Does that qualify as 'very wealthy' like the original description?

It would provide a very good life, but not private jump yachts and things like that.

I've been thinking about adding to the income of the Chosen by giving them an unoptanium mine. But what kind of mine? Anti-matter doesn't work for a a surface mine, and I don't think zuchai crystals and lanthanum is valuable enough. Anagathics, perhaps? Or a unique type of gemstone like the Zarathustra sunstones?

Anyone have any ideas/opinions?


Hans